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  • Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

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    Old 12-16-2019, 06:21 PM   #1
    stephenwilliam
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    Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi. This is my first post.

    In May of 2019, I was found to have an elevated PSA and a biopsy was performed. It came back positive but in only one half of my prostate and less than 100%. Gleason of 7. After a Bone Scan and a Cat Scan, there were no further complications found and it was suggested I have my prostate removed.

    I met with a surgeon who performs the surgery manually and then spoke with my Doctor and a friend's Doctor who had the surgery done robotically and I was told that the surgery was less invasive.

    At this point, I have chosen to book an appointment for a robotically performed laparoscopic radical prostatectomy.

    Since this is not scheduled for another 7 - 8 weeks, I had begun shifting my diet to a plant based diet and recently purchased How Not to Die by Michael Gregor, which talks about results on reducing prostate cancer and that some men have been able to avoid having to have the surgery and I am wondering if anyone else has tried this method and if yes, did your PSA numbers reduce and how long has the remission been?

    Thank you.

    Last edited by stephenwilliam; 12-16-2019 at 06:46 PM.

     
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    Old 12-16-2019, 11:00 PM   #2
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi Stephen,

    I wish I could offer a more positive reply to your question. But, unfortunately, no changes you can make to your diet will make prostate cancer go away once it has appeared.

    There are theories that certain diets might help PREVENT prostate cancer from forming in the first place, but I do not believe this has ever been proven for certain.

    I believe you are on the right track by scheduling surgery but, to be completely fair to yourself, you might consider consulting with a top notch radiation oncologist who specializes in prostate cancer.

    Then you can compare the pros & cons of both of these major treatment types. I do believe that surgery offers several advantages over radiation -- but regardless, the cure rate is the same between both treatment types.

    In addition, the cure rate between traditional open surgery and da Vinci robotic surgery is also the same.

    The recovery rate is a bit faster with the robot and the precision capabilities of robotic surgery offer other advantages over open surgery.

    Wishing you the best!
    Chuck

     
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    Old 12-17-2019, 06:52 AM   #3
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi Chuck,

    Thank you for that. I had found studies showing that Dean Ornish had actually reversed the effects of Prostate Cancer which had me feeling somewhat hopeful yet apprehensive.

    That thread appeared here; https://www.ornish.com/zine/prostate-cancer-doorway-vibrant-health-expansive-happy-life/

    And Michael Greger suggests in his book of studies that show regression to the point of the cancer being 'controllable'.

    As with many areas of our lives, sometimes we learn things out of necessity rather than choice and I believe after much reading that had I been on a plant based diet for the past 20 years, I would not be writing this post.

    I had met with a radiation Oncologist and could not see myself spending five days a week for 6 - 8 weeks undergoing radiation treatment two hours from my home and after considerable thought and discussions with my wife, the robotics surgery simply made the most sense to me and the Doctor I have chosen is very highly regarded from the Princess Margaret Hospital in Toronto.

    Thank you for responding.

     
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    Old 12-17-2019, 08:48 AM   #4
    stephenwilliam
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    I am curious to ask if anyone else has done any plant based dietary management of their prostate cancer...

    Some of the links seem legit to me or am I simply allowing myself to read something into something I would like to be true?

    Dean Ornish: https://www.ornish.com/zine/prostate-cancer-doorway-vibrant-health-expansive-happy-life/

    Dean Ornish: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/111710.php#1

    Michael Greger: https://nutritionfacts.org/video/cancer-reversal-through-diet/

     
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    Old 12-17-2019, 02:12 PM   #5
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi stephenwilliam and a belated welcome to the Board!

    I have used diet and nutrition tactics to support my war against very aggressive prostate cancer for two decades now, and I believe that they helped, in support, but for me it was clear they were not able to do the heavy lifting. I hope to post further.

    Regarding radiation, I had the same concern about traveling for extended radiation, but for me it would have meant relocating from Virginia to Florida for two months. I'm glad I was eventually able to find a local radiation solution. However, a far shorter term of radiation has proved both effective and safe in recent years. It is generally known as SBRT, an awkward acronym, or by a brand name of just one of the several delivery systems available, CyberKnife. The key fact is that the radiation is delivered in heavier doses in far fewer sessions. I believe the most typical for an intermediate-risk case is 5 sessions delivered with a day or two in between sessions. A 20 session regimen is also available, but of course is less convenient.

    Toronto is a mecca for expertise in prostate cancer, and Princess Margaret Hospital has pioneered a number of breakthroughs.

    Dean Ornish has some solid research backing some of his claims and is well respected. If you go to www.pubmed.gov and search for - ornish d [au] AND prostate cancer - you will be able to see a list of his research that has been published in medical journals. You can get a brief description of each study by clicking on the blue hypertext.

    Jim

    PS - Another post reminded me that I should have also mentioned radioactive seeds (brachytherapy), both permanent (1 day treatment) and temporary (2 day treatment) to round out the options for shorter-treatment term radiation therapy.

    Last edited by IADT3since2000; 12-28-2019 at 05:01 AM. Reason: Added PS re brachytherapy.

     
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    Old 12-17-2019, 04:36 PM   #6
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Thanks Jim. I was hoping you would also add your voice as I have read a number of posts and found your opinion well founded at all times. Thank you for the links. I have printed out a few studies and hope to discuss with my Doctor this week.

    I am curious to know a little about your situation as it appears to me you have been dealing with this for 20+ years and frankly, I will be pleased to have another 20 years in front of me. I am 65 currently.

    If I understand you correctly, I assume you have had radiation and are also following a dietary plan of some sort which I also assume is primarily plant based.

    At this point, I have spoken with five doctors and none have mentioned the SBRT but regardless, something in me says to have the cancer removed rather than follow a radiation seres of treatment. I believe I am comfortable with that choice although I am concerned about incontinence and erectile dysfunction.

    My Doctor assures me he has achieved a high success rate and I spoke with two other Doctors both of whom had the robotics surgery with my surgeon and both assured me they were back to mostly normal within three months so that has made me feel more confident in my decision.

    I suppose when it comes right down to it, none of us want to have erectile dysfunction nor incontinence and I suppose had I found out earlier I could have changed my diet and managed to progression possibly...

    Thank you for your time in responding... Jim and Chuck.

    Stephen

     
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    Old 12-19-2019, 12:10 PM   #7
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi Stephen,

    I am mostly plant based. But do not have prostate cancer, but rather BPH. I will share a few thoughts. Since I found out in January 2018 that I had BPH and increasing PSA scores, I decided to go mostly plant based. I went from eating healthy meats twice a day to once a day. Cut out all dairy, sugar, and most processed foods. Replaced with lots of veges. My favorites being sweet potato, brussel sprouts, brocolli, carrots.

    I have seen my PSA drop from a high of 5.7 to now at 3.8.

    All said, I don't want to give you advice seeing you have cancer. Please listen to others with more experience. I would think that making the change to plant based or mostly plant based, little processed foods and sugar would be good for you though.

    Good luck to you sir.

     
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    Old 12-19-2019, 04:15 PM   #8
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    You can not cure cancer with a diet regimen.

    You can improve your health and the planet with a plant based diet.

    You can manipulate your PSA with anti inflammatory supplements, vitamins and diet regimens. It will have no effect on the cancer. Beware of this manipulation in justifying denial or delay.

    If you have evidence, such as a rising PSA, it is advisable not to attempt to manipulate it until you have diagnosed and treated it. Your PSA is your best friend on this hunt.

    Eat a healthy diet. Typically a mediterranean style (anti imflammatory) diet minimizing red meat. Do not attempt to adjust your diet in a way that modifies your PSA thinking it impacts the progression of your cancer. It does not.

    Your cancer is mostly likely a result of your mother's diet and stress during your gestation and early infanthood, imo.
    __________________
    Born 1953; family w/PCa-grandfather, 3 brothers;
    7-12-04 PSA 1.9; 7-10-06 PSA 2.0; 8-30-07 PSA 3.2; 12-1-11 PSA 5.7; 5-16-12 PSA 4.76; 12-11-12 PSA 5.2; 3-7-16 PSA 7.2;
    3-14-16 TRUS biopsy, PCa 1%-60% across 8 of 12 samples, G3+3;
    5-4-16 DaVinci RP, Path-65g, lymph nodes, seminal vesicles, capsule, margin all neg, G3+4, T vol 35%, +pT2c, No Incontinence-6mos, Erections-14 months;
    1-15-21 PSA less than 0.02; zero club 4.5 yrs

     
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    Old 12-23-2019, 06:20 AM   #9
    DjinTonic
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi Stephen,

    For the latest in the results of serious research and professional recommendations on plant-based supplements (phytochemicals), see

    Prostate Cancer, Nutrition, and Dietary Supplements (PDQ)
    Health Professional Version [November, 2019]
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK83261/

    Patient Version [Novenber 2019]
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK83984/
    The PDQ guides are published on all aspects of prostate cancer and are kept up to date.

    There are quite a few phytochemicals that have proven in vitro effect on inhibiting prostate cancer (PCa) cells or even getting them to die off. The main problem is that of bioavailability: you would have to ingest huge, probably toxic, quantities to deliver to prostate tissue the amount of active substance needed to duplicate the results seen when the substance is put in direct contact with PCa cells in the lab. Nonetheless, this avenue of research is actively pursued in the hopes of developing new drugs.

    There have been some positive results from controlled clinical trials. Pomegranate (juice, seeds, and/or fruit), for example, is one oft-cited supplement . However, the results of clinical trials have been uneven. One hypothesis for this comes from a study that found no overall benefit from pomegranate in the subjects, but also found that 25% of men with a specific genotype did respond positively to it.

    The British double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized study of Pomi-T (a green tea extract, pomegranate, broccoli extract, and tumeric mix formulated for the study and then commercialized) had some positive results, with lesion size being reduced on imaging. (I began taking Pomi-T after my surgery, but found I could get the same supplements cheaper buying them separately.)

    Supplements might help prevent PCa and/or mitigate its growth. I myself have been taking a number of supplements: while they might do nothing or very little to prevent a recurrence of my PCa, they may well have other beneficial effects, such as keeping inflammation down. One recent study found that there may be synergistic effect when taking some combinations: the combined effect is greater than the sum of the effect of each alone.

    If you do go the supplement route, do your research into the ones with some track record. Some have proven to be ineffective or even detrimental to your health.

    Of course you can always eat well and healthy, too and save some money!

    That said, IMO it is foolhardy to think that supplements or diet are an alternative to treatment. If you need to treat your PCa, then do so. Biopsies and imaging can both miss more serious lesions, and even if not present, they can arise. No one dies from prostate-confined PCa, but the main focus of treatment is to prevent metastatic disease, which does kill.

    Djin
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    69 yr at Dx, BPH x 20 yr, 9 (!) neg. Bx, PCA3-
    7-05-13 TURP for BPH (90→30 g) path neg. for PCa, then 6-mo. checks
    6-06-17 Nodule on R + PSA rise on finasteride: 3.6→4.3
    6-28-17 Bx #10: 2/14 cores: G10 (5+5) 50% RB, G9 (4+5) 3% RLM
    Nodule negative for PCa. Bone scan, CTs, X-rays: neg.
    8-7-17 Open RP, negative frozen sections, Duke Regional Hosp.
    SM EPE BNI LVI SVI LNI(5L, 11R): negative, PNI+, nerves spared
    pT2c pN0 pMX, G9 (4+5) 5% of prostate (4.5x5x4 cm, 64 g)
    Dry; ED OK with sildenafil
    Decipher 0.37 (Low Risk), uPSA: 0.010 (3 mo.)...0.020 (3 yr. 7 mo.)

    Last edited by DjinTonic; 12-23-2019 at 03:31 PM.

     
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    Old 12-23-2019, 07:52 AM   #10
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Good morning!
    My father had a similar diagnosis 8 years ago in his late 50s. He chose Proton Therapy instead of surgery after much research and debate. He took his treatments at Loma Linda Medical Center in CA. They were one of the first treatment centers but now there are 33 across the nation with 10 more under construction. To this date, he is cancer free. Please visit the Brotherhood of the Balloon website (www.protonbob.com) for all the info you need. I would be happy to connect you with my father via email if you send me a private message.
    Best of luck and health to you!

     
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    Old 12-25-2019, 02:49 PM   #11
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi again Stephen,

    You can see from the responses that there is a diversity of view, but most agreeing, as I do, that exercise, diet and nutrition, while helpful in a supporting role, are unlikely to do the heavy lifting to cure prostate cancer. That said, I strongly believe that diet and nutrition have helped me. In short, I follow a Mediterranean diet with no red meat (beef, lamb, pork, some light food processing (such as freezing or canning) but no deli type food, virtually no dairy (or eggs) until I was apparently cured, and daily fish, broccoli, cauliflower, carrots, apples, green tea (a lot of it with lemon), V8 juice and frequently tomato in some form (for the lycopene, with cooked or processed tomatoes better sources than raw), as well as other vegetables, plus frequent shellfish, with some chicken and occasional turkey. (Broccoli, cauliflower, Brussel sprouts, kale and some other foods, as well as mustard, are good sources of sulforaphane, which has anti-cancer activity; moreover, mustard increases the bioavailability of sulforaphane, so I add it to my broccoli and cauliflower.) I avoid added sugar, but did and do eat occasional cookies and candy, and fruit and dark chocolate (70% or higher cocoa, usually 78%) daily. Fortunately, unlike other cancers, prostate cancer does not depend on sugar metabolism until it becomes advanced; therefore the sugar in whole fruit and dark chocolate , as well as wine in moderation, is probably not harmful unless your cancer is well advanced.

    I relied mainly on ADT3 to get my PSA down from the initial high of 113.6 to <0.01 (Gleason 4+3=7, all cores positive, most 100%) for my first round of ADT3 before taking a vacation from the Lupron and Casodex while maintaining the Proscar, and during this time and afterwards I was on the diet above. However, despite my success, my PSA eventually began increasing while off the heavy duty drugs, as expected despite the diet and exercise, and my PSA was doubling every 3 to 4 months, which is quite rapid and threatening, from the time it hit 5. I suspect a lot of us with intermediate- or high-risk prostate cancer have had a similar experience.


    On the other hand, while lifestyle tactics don't seem to do the heavy lifting, they do seem important, and we had a friend in our support group with intermediate-risk prostate cancer who flouted the customary dietary advice. In fact, his home featured southwest Texas cattle-related dcor, and he loved his steaks. The rest of us would be eating a Mediterranean/plant based meal when we got together, but he would order a large steak. Well, he had a recurrence, and it was surprising how fast he slipped down the shoot and died. I can’t help thinking, in the context of research, that diet has had a lot to do with the success some of us have enjoyed and with the suffering and death experienced by others.

    By the way, if you change your mind and decide to have radiation, you need to alter your diet away from the ideal anti-prostate cancer diet during the course of radiation. I learned that the hard way, experiencing bloating and discomfort until a nurse put me on the right course. Also, radiation oncologists often advise their patients to stay away from antioxidants during the period that the radiation is being delivered. That’s because one of the ways radiation kills cancer is to produce oxidants. But doctors differ on this, so if you go the radiation route, be sure to discuss this.

    A lot of research is done on nutrition, diet and prostate cancer, as you are already at least somewhat aware, but it is very difficult research to do, mainly because it is so difficult to isolate the effects of individual food items. In addition to the sources you have mentioned and provided earlier in this thread, another helpful source (really thick, but searchable) is published by the World Cancer Research Fund in partnership with the American Institute for Cancer Research. It does an outstanding job of citing, describing , summarizing and displaying evidence for nutritional and physical activity interventions for each major cancer. They publish an updated report every 7 to 11 years entitled “Food, Nutrition, Physical Activity and the Prevention of Cancer: a Global Perspective,” and “The Third Expert Report, Food, Nutrition, Physical Activity, and the Prevention of Cancer: a Global Perspective [2018] is available at https://www.wcrf.org/dietandcancer/about . I have been following the findings since the first report in 1999, just before my own diagnosis. For example, I was excited to see that the supplement selenium, which I had been taking enthusiastically based on some promising initial research, had a recommendation upgraded to, essentially, promising, pending further research. Well, a few years later a large clinical trial found that the version of selenium it tested was a bust. I have glanced at the 2018 report, and prior enthusiasm for selenium, though not totally gone, has diminished.

    Also keep this in mind: the overwhelming majority of us prostate cancer patients will die of something else, notably heart disease, and essentially a heart-healthy diet is also an anti-prostate-cancer, healthy diet.

    Regarding the cause of prostate cancer, my impression is that there are a number of theories but no clear front runner.

    Good luck!

    PS - I just found the tables for the 2007 and 2018 reports on selenium. The 2007 ("Second Expert" report) put selenium, meaning too little selenium, in the "Probable Increased Risk" category based on studies of supplements. The 2018 ("Third Expert" report) put "Low plasma selenium concentration" in a less likely category: "limited suggested increased risk". The site for the 2018 report is page 40 at https://www.wcrf.org/sites/default/files/Summary-of-Third-Expert-Report-2018.pdf . The only "Probable increased risk" items are "Adult body fatness" and "Attained adult height". The other (than selenium) "Limited suggested increased risk" items are: dairy products; diets high in calcium; and "Low plasma alpha tocopherol concentration". The latter is one form of vitamin E, but there is some fairly good research indicating that consuming alpha tocopherol vitamin E supplements is not a good idea for prostate cancer patients. The only other "hits" are "Substantial effect on risk unlikely" for beta carotene and for foods containing beta carotene. There are many blanks indicating insufficient research for prostate cancer for any suggestion among the diet, exercise and other possible cancer risk factors.

    Last edited by IADT3since2000; 12-25-2019 at 04:29 PM. Reason: Added PS describing and giving the site for the graphic summary report of dietary, etc. risk factors.

     
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    Old 12-25-2019, 03:34 PM   #12
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Common knowledge is prostate cancer is environmental and genetic. That's it.

    Genetic switches happen primarily in the egg. Which comes first, the chicken or the egg, has an answer. The egg comes first. Genetic changes occur in the survival of reproduction, imo. There are exceptions for cancer such as extreme toxicity. Smoking is one example generating lung cancer. Visceral fat may be a toxicity generating prostate cancer. Visceral fat stores a multitude of toxic products. Hormones being one which are overused in our animal protein production. Use organic, antibiotic and hormone free produced protein products.

    The risk in experimenting with extreme levels of diet, supplements and vitamins is the toxic burden on liver and kidneys and stored in visceral fat. If you are overweight you have an increased risk of Prostate cancer. Most American males are overweight and don't accept they are putting themselves at higher risk of PCa.
    __________________
    Born 1953; family w/PCa-grandfather, 3 brothers;
    7-12-04 PSA 1.9; 7-10-06 PSA 2.0; 8-30-07 PSA 3.2; 12-1-11 PSA 5.7; 5-16-12 PSA 4.76; 12-11-12 PSA 5.2; 3-7-16 PSA 7.2;
    3-14-16 TRUS biopsy, PCa 1%-60% across 8 of 12 samples, G3+3;
    5-4-16 DaVinci RP, Path-65g, lymph nodes, seminal vesicles, capsule, margin all neg, G3+4, T vol 35%, +pT2c, No Incontinence-6mos, Erections-14 months;
    1-15-21 PSA less than 0.02; zero club 4.5 yrs

     
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    Old 12-25-2019, 04:47 PM   #13
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Hi Djin Tonic and welcome to the Board! I understand you did a lot of work on the cancerforums board.

    Thanks for the leads to the PDQ information reports, which are produced by the US government, which increases their objectivity and credibility. I had not known about these reports before.

    I like the way way both the professional and patient versions summarize the key points. I also like the World Cancer Research Fund/American Institute for Cancer Research publications, but it does take more sophistication to separate the wheat from the chaff than for the PDQ reports. An advantage of the WCRF/AICR reports are that they cover more possible risk factors, and, for those interested, they give a lot of detail on how conclusions are reached.

    Thanks,

    Jim

     
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    Old 12-26-2019, 05:32 AM   #14
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Thanks, Jim. Another plus about the PDQ reports is that they are updated, perhaps as often as 2 or 3 times a year. For PCa, there are also PDQ reports on

    Screening:
    Professional: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK65945/
    Patient: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK65867/

    Treatment:
    Professional: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK66036/
    Patient: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK65915/

    Genetics:
    Professional: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK65784/

    Prevention:
    Professional: https://www.oncnet.com/resources/prostate-cancer-prevention-pdqr-health-professional-version
    Patient:

    Djin

     
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    Old 12-26-2019, 09:00 AM   #15
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    Re: Radical Prostatectomy OR Plant Based Diet?

    Thanks again Djin Tonic.

    I use PubMed frequently, but I was unaware of the resources you just mentioned. I hope to read the one on screening. I have spent a lot of time and energy supporting smart screening and trying to counter what used to be awful misadvice based on faulty understanding of the science by the so called US Preventive Services Task Force. During the comment period for their current updated advice, which is much improved but still not ideal as you probably know, I sent four detailed critiques, each thoroughly evidence based, and I suspect others of us did the same. They at least addressed these points in the detailed discussion in the recommendation, but, to me at least, they still have not done a good enough job of connecting the dots. I'm also interested in comparing these guidelines to those in the National Comprehensive Cancer Network guidelines, but that is going to have to wait a while.

    Last edited by IADT3since2000; 12-26-2019 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Added "enough" near end and sentence about NCCN.

     
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