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sherry47 05-24-2004 07:47 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Quote from Man Apart

"You know, i dont think someone with a sound heart would wake up today and say to themselves, i love my daughter a little less today because she disobeyed me or she smoked marjuana or she got drunk off her a*s. Or say I think im falling out of love with my mom. I want to divorce my parents, just cos I see them everyday and its jus all getting to old. I want new love from new parents. Hey, I still admire my mothers eyes, I still love to hear my dads raspy laugh. Ive experienced it with them a billion times, it never gets old. I dont believe two people have to have the same blood types to be just as devoted. "

Man Apart

I know you say you don't believe in God, but you just described the type of love he offers. He loves you like that. He just wants you to return that love. Please don't attack me for telling you about God's love. I just want you to realize you are so much more than you think. YOU are worth Love. YOU deserve love. Perhaps a little time to work on realizing you are worthy of love might be in order before beginning another relationship. If you don't think you deserve love, you are setting yourself up for failure.

I'm not trying to start some sort of religious argument here, so please don't take it that way. I just thought you needed to hear that you are deeply loved, and all you have to do is accept it. One more thing: I'm truly sorry that race was an issue for you, and if this girl was that shallow, well honestly she wasn't the best person for you.

God Bless,
Sherry :wave:

Keen17 05-24-2004 08:11 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
This is for Man Apart. You will not attract love from another until you truly love yourself and accept yourself. No one wants to love someone that doesn't love themselves. If you don't feel you're important or worthy to accept yourself how you are, how can you expect someone else to?

My advice to you and anyone else in your on a relationship with yourself first. Learn to love who you are and you will attract what you deserve. Love.

Genabeena 05-24-2004 10:25 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
I don't know about the "teddy bear" thing either. It's more like TDH from my POV. Ha! Keep searching that website, BTW. [I]You[/I] might find somebody whose profile is a good match for yours, whom [I]you[/I] would want to initiate contact with. It's not easy to find someone who matches on all counts, but you'll be sure to find someone eventually if you keep searching.

Also, keep in mind that, although most relationships do not ultimately result in the realization of a soul mate, many times even a failed love relationship can have many positive outcomes. For example: my failed marriage has yielded two incredible, beautiful daughters. Also, my husband and I are still good friends. I have had other relationships, too, that have gone from friendship, to more than friends, and back to friendship again. It is important, when a relationship ends, to take inventory not just of the things you lost, but also the things you gained. Relationships always change us.

You are in the middle of a healing process. You are trying to heal from years of abuse, the nature of which I (or probably anyone here) could only imagine. You speak sometimes of the scars on your body, but it's your psyche that takes the worst beating of all. So, although this feels like a soap opera, there is a good reason for that. Soap operas (as well as classical operas) mimic real life; the passion, the pain, the tragedy, the triumph, success, downfall, (and especially scandal, right?) Of course those soap opera writers couldnít write your life if they were being set on fire. And there is a reason soap operas are so popular. When people watch them, they experience the extreme ups and downs of real life (but itís played out for them so they donít have to take any real risks). People love those ups and downs, because thatís what living is.

Now, I'm not a big soap opera fan. Iíve had a couple of times when I have been temporarily ensnared in a soap, but eventually I realized that although it feels like living, itís really only virtual living. So, although I will engage in the enjoyment of a good pretend drama now and then (for entertainment), Iím a much bigger fan of real living. So, in conclusion, I say donít be afraid to go ahead and participate in your own living. Itís not a soap opera. Soaps are only virtual living and could never even come close (I donít care how [I]realistic[/I] they become).

Back to the healing process: I believe you are on your way. You might not feel like it due to all the recurrent bouts of suicidal thoughts, but hey, complete recovery doesnít happen overnight. Itís going to take many many days of repeated exposure to unconditional nurturing and care. Itís going to take a community. Itís going to take a comprehensive approach; effort on the part of yourself and your community (the people around you), enrichment through education and art, perhaps a lot of medi[B]t[/B]ation, and yes even medi[B]c[/B]ation, diet, physical exercise. Each of these elements is part of the equation. The love of a woman, well, that certainly couldnít hurt. I think that in the midst of the synergy thatís being created by the persistent effort to self-improve in all of the above categories, you are becoming a very attractive candidate indeed.

[QUOTE=sgibson]I just thought you needed to hear that you are deeply loved, and all you have to do is accept it. One more thing: I'm truly sorry that race was an issue for you, and if this girl was that shallow, well honestly she wasn't the best person for you. [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Keen17]My advice to you and anyone else in your on a relationship with yourself first. Learn to love who you are and you will attract what you deserve. Love. [/QUOTE]
I agree with these folks on a fundamental level, but I also think that your case is unusual. I think that, though, on the surface Man Apart would appear to have nothing but disdain for himself, still, he loved himself and believed in himself enough to- somehow- inexplicably- survive some trials that many of us would be hard-pressed to even imagine. He had enough love in his heart to hold on to the microscopic little spec of hope he had, enough love to find his way to his community here on-line, enough love to reach out to some of us. Thatís very significant. And just as I believe in the phrase, ďlove thy neighbor as thyself, for thy neighbor [I]is[/I] thyself,Ē I also believe that evidence of love of oneís neighbor is evidence of love of oneís self. Need I say more?

Lastly, I want to talk about some of these dreams people are having. How cool! I am very very much into dreams. Mermaidís dream is very interesting (very flattering too- complimentary). I think that we identify with one another on a deep level. Perhaps the dream was, sort of, ďunderliningĒ the importance of our friendship. Maybe it was also saying that, even without an actual one-on-one meeting, your mindís eye can see me with alarming clarity. Your mindís eye, even without needing to know what the specific contours of my face are like, or how I actually physically look, is able to construct a symbolic representation of me which identifies me as a nurturer, and a person with whom you can identify. Very perceptive dream. (By-the-way, I just have to mention that a lot of the details were right on: large brown eyes, brown wavy hair... but, it's not very long right now although it has been at times. Also, my daughters are, indeed, beautiful- strikingly beautiful, and thatís not just a biased perspective. Everyone thinks so.)

Now, Man Apart, youíre dream was very different, but that makes sense given the fact that we have a totally different relationship. Also, your dream may have been driven more by anxiety than by a need to underline something important. I have to admit that your dream troubles me. I mean, it is what it is, and we canít choose what to dream about or what not to. Maybe your subconscious is trying to tell you to be careful. Maybe you are worried that your current perception of me is an illusion. Thatís an understandable concern. I donít know, maybe thatís an accurate perception in some ways, but there is one thing I know you can rely on. I care about you, I want the best for you no matter what, and that is something that is not an illusion, something that will never change.

I donít think that our dreams are the only thing we have to look forward to. Joseph Campbell says that dreams tell us about the future. I told that to my therapist and she said, ďyes and dreams also tell us about what is fueling our desires.Ē I think about that all the time.

As a final note I just wanted to add the following comment. The world of humans is divided into two categories in my mind; those who are aware of their mental/emotional and interpersonal/intrapersonal challenges and those who are oblivious to them. I know which group Iíd rather be in.

Love to all,

enoch 05-24-2004 02:52 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
dedicated to the man apart who dreamed enoch was clint eastwood

Groan'in Groan'in Groan'in
keep man apart from folding
Groan'in Groan'in Groan'in

Rod Hide!
Hell bent for better - through
pain wind and weather
wish'in his girl was by his side
with good victuals, love and kissin'
does that sound like a mission
man apart finds himself a bride

so move him on, head him off, (head him off) move him up, Move him on
head him off, Rod hide
cut him off - ride him in - ride him out - cut him off - ride him in Rod hide movin movin movin

keep man apart moving
just try and understand him
dont dope hurt or strand him
soon he'll be living high and wide
in his bunny slippers..

*note all events are based on reality - only the bunny slippers are fiction..

Man Apart 05-24-2004 06:46 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
sgibson, thanks for your post. I always welcome a new perspective. I am happy to hear from you. I apologize if my ill-advised comments about my beliefs in God troubled you, it was not my intent and since I did somewhat recant primarily the harshness of the statements I said. Remember I am not atheist. I long for the day I can have 100% faith and belief. But I simply cannot feel or believe the love of God when all my life Ive been covered by hate. Blinded, and confused by mans perceptions. I do not attack anyones beliefs.

I know im worthy of love. I dont have to realize that. I am just as deserving as anyone no matter how beautiful they are or how important or valueable I seem to society and the world. I would not pursue love in this manner if I did not feel I deserve love. I hear people tell me I am loved. Its easy to say. But until I feel loved, Ill always feel hollow inside.

Ive already failed, and failed and failed, and failed. But only those who dare to fail greatly can acheive greatly. Maybe someday all my failures will amount to something great. Unfortunately my ability to cope with the grief of constant failure is fading. My heart just cant take many more blows. I have lost so much of myself just trying to improve my life. Just trying to save my life. I know my time is running out and my window of oppurtunity is closing fast. But at least im trying. *crying*.............. Im sorry. Its frustrating. People dont love people. People love peoples money and prestigue, and skin color, looks and body. Thats why Ive failed so much. Because I actually believed love was about what was in the inside of someone. To me thats a myth. Maybe im chasing something that doesnt exist. That frightens me.

My skin will always be a issue in my lifetime. For some its shallowness. For some its fear. And for some its just plain ignorance. I think she fears. She is not racist. I still think shes a sweet person.

Keen17. I didnt have to hate myself to find hate did I. I dont have to fully love myself to find love. I just have to know I am deserving of it and that the love for myself can and will get better in time. For me to regain all the dignity, self respect, and self esttem I lost could take years and years. I dont have years and years of my life trying to construct my mind, body and soul just so I can finally be accepted by someone. I will love her. And through her love I will learn to love myself. It is the only way now and my only option. Many people in this world took it away from me, piece by d*** piece. Someone will help me get it back.

Man Apart 05-24-2004 08:01 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Gena. Whats a TDH and POV? Anyway, that site is kinda cool, you can webchat like instant message and stuff. There was a girl named Jonah that messaged me. She was gorgeous. She had no business messaging me. lol. She was just really pretty. We talked and she was very interested in me still and thought I was handsome. I don tknow why but I have this inbuilt mechanism inside me that refuses to really acknowledge or believe when something is really going my way. Its like a radar of some sort and I just wasnt able to believe in what was going on. But It was pleasant talking to her. Near the end of the conversation everything just broke down. Because she asked me to marry her. lol. I was like, um, um, lol, I want to get to know you first though. And she was like, no, "im tired of waiting, you are good man, I want man now, lets to be married." And I said, but I dont know you Jonah. And she said "you dont have to I know myself, im a good girl, and God knows me." I think for 3 seconds I pondered the idea. lol. But I told her no. I have to be true to myself. Yeah walking down the street with her at hand would make it seem like I got it going on. lol. But I wouldnt feel that way inside. It wasnt because she seemed desperate, cos Im desperate myself. It was because for that entire hour we talked, she never even asked me one thing about myself. On the physical side, Lili isnt as beautiful as Jonah. But Lili, dug into my heart, she wanted to know alot. She made me feel worthwhile. Jonah could never compare with her on the inside.

Its hard knowing theres a needle in that haystack. Its in there somewhere in that big huge, massive pile. I mean if someone told you to look for it, youd think, im never gonna find it. Yeah its there. I know its there. I know there is someone. But im never going to find it. Im never going to find her. Thats how I feel. But I jumped in that haystack anyway, just wishing so bad something will stick me in the a*s.

I cant really say im in a healing process Gena. I dont mean to conflict against how you feel but its just the truth. Im not really healing and im constantly being scarred. Ive tried. Ive tried to get help an dlearn how to heal but the only thing that can cure the destructive trail of hate in my life is a productive trail of love. Not only from someone else but, from ME to myself.

Im always concerned about sounding like a soap opera because, this really isnt the romance board. I think bit by bit ive mentioned vaguely basically what happened. Right now, like I just want a womans perspective mainly. Cos I dont know what im doing wrong, or what I should write. Of course I want to be honest and forthcoming. I have bad habits with her. I start to go into pathetic mode and start downing myself because she doesnt feel the same way I feel about her. But how can I not???? Its been 4 months, theres a reason why her feelings are still conflicted and its because, there is something about me she does not connect well with. Oh and her lying about the ex bf may have had a lil inkling of influence. You know some people just have it. They dont have to try to build themselves up in someones eyes and heart. Its just automatic and there is no doubt or conflict. I dont have that and I never will. In two weeks im going to cut ties. Im gonna delete all her mail, im gonna burn her letters, im gonna, block her online. Before she was giving me life. If I prolonge this, she will ultimately give me death. I just need someone to help me or advice me when I write her or talk to her. I go online and take notes about phone conversation tips. Yeah, im pathetic, I know. But im trying. Cos I have feelings for her. What more can I do or say that would salvage what I have with her. She still gives me this faint hope that maybe she can feel that way about me soon. Forgive me if I cant wait on you to take me through another 4 months of lying to just find out your still not sure....I wish I didnt love you. Cos loving you hurts.

I agree with what sg and keen said also, although it was hard to not wake what Keen said personal. I know noone wants to be with me. I know thats apparent. But there is a reason why I dont love myself. A circumstance I couldnt control. But just because I dont see it, doesnt mean someone else cant. Apparent you and Lori J can. Right now I cant, it doesnt mean I never will. It just means I cant now.

Gena, you dont even know what my dream was. lol. Dont get all scary with me like im gonna go texas chainsaw massacre on you. Am I wrong about you? Are you not always on the go and active? Cos thats the only thing i mentioned and if its inaccurate, there is no reason to be concern. Yeah when I had the dream I was under alot of anxiety. It close to the period of time when you were depressed about the job fair an dyour husband putting you down and I felt really bad and helpless and I didnt know what to say. I was worried and concerned deeply. When I met you, we were at a pizza cafe. I was trying my best to find the words to comfort you and tell you it would be ok. But you were so adamantly defiant of everything I said and even used my own pessimistic attitude against me. I remember vividly asking you, Gena, there has to be something in this world you enjoy. Some goal or dream you have that you can pursue that can bring you peace and happiness. And you said no, nothing. And you got up and said this was a mistake meeting me cos i was only depressing you more and you told me goodbye.

I know that wasnt you. I even said it was a contradiction of how I feel about you and my image of you. In alot of ways I believe I was sitting there in that cafe, talking with myself. Although i wouldnt tell anyone they were depressng me more even if they were. lol. Oh and I think im aware mentally and interpersonally, but oblivious emotionally and intrapersonally.

Enoch. LOL. I have to print that out lmao. Thanks. Im gonna try not to feel too embarrassed. lol. But thank for this smile I have on my face.

lori j 05-24-2004 10:05 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Man, I am grounded due to my back problems, am supposed to be on the couch laying but came here to tell you that I started to read the David Burns book, the new one, "The New Mood Therapy". Boy did I see you & me & everyone else in that book!
We live with negative thoughts, we exagerate them til we believe all of them.
I am sneaking on here, but can't stay long. Do me a favor, pick up that book & read it, it cannot hurt.
How are you doing on Lexapro?
I will probably finish the book since I am grounded for the week at least. My chiro grounded me as I am undoing everything she does by doing things I should not & not resting, so I'll let you know if it is helping me with my negative & distorted thoughts.

sherry47 05-25-2004 04:50 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Ok Man Apart,

I just have to let you know there are people out there who look beyond the physical in a person. I know because I am one of those people. When my husband and I would go out in public people would look at us like "what is she doing with him"? You see, my husband is a very large man, I am 5'4" and 95 pounds. I am not concieted but yes I do look good. And yes, my husband looks good to me. My husband treated me like a queen for the first half of our marriage, but you see, my physical health has altered the way he treats me. He can't deal with all the stress this has put on our family life. I don't blame him, he didn't sign on for this. He expected to have a vivacious, active, beautiful woman for the rest of our lives together. It didn't happen. I have told him if he wants out, just go. But he cannot let go. He is miserable here and is making the rest of us miserable. But he also felt like you, that no one would ever love and accept him for who he was, and then I came along and did just that. I came from money, he did not. I overlooked all the warnings from family and friends to be with him. He was so good to me, but he had never learned to love himself and be accepting of himself. Now, we just go through the motions. We have 3 beautiful children together and neither one of us will do anything to harm them. So you see, love isn't always happily ever after. After a few years, it's just what you make it. You get out what you put in. I have never been truly happy playing the "trophy wife." But I accepted the role because he treated me like I needed to be treated. We all have our reasons for being with someone. He "needed" a trophy wife, I "needed" someone to treat me well.
We "loved" each other because we provided these things for each other. But when one person breaks the so called "contract" things are never the same. I'm sure there are people out there who are together for the right reasons, we just aren't them. On the outside, we have it together. On the inside, it's a mess. I guess what I'm trying to tell you is, don't settle. Make sure both of you are together for the right reasons. Make sure your expectations from each other are realistic. Don't settle. But most of all, don't quit looking or living in the process. Don't be afraid to get hurt to find the right person. Trust me, the hurt of a lost love is a lot easier to swallow than clinging to a dying love. I won't quote cliches for you, but they do have a ring of truth to some of them.

If you can't tell from my post, I lost the love of my life 15 years ago. I "settled" because I then thought it was more important for the other person to love me than it was for me to love the other person. In a perfect world it would be a mutual thing. My husband knew I was still in love with the other person when we were married but he choose to overlook it because he loved me and I guess he thought in time those memories would fade. Flash forward 15 years, I still have a place in my heart for the first love, but I have a stronger devotion to my husband. It's not about that fairy tale love anymore. I have become cynical at the age of 32. You see, in the situation I am in now, I do not run the risk of having my heart broken. I like the "safe" way. Sure I miss the way my husband used to treat me, but does it crush me? NO Does it leave me unable to sleep? No Eat? No Am I getting everything out of life that I possibly could? perhaps not
Am I willing to take chances to find out? NO Do I believe in true love? Absolutely. I have experienced it, but it scared the hell out of us because we were both so young.

Give it time, don't jump into a relationship because you don't want to be alone. Don't do it for the wrong reasons. And in my opinion, it is better to love than to be loved.

Good Luck.

God Bless,
Sherry :wave:

Man Apart 05-25-2004 08:30 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
sgibson. Thank you for sharing your life and experiences with me and giving me a new perspective on things. I owe you a great deal of gratitude for your post. Ill say this before I reply. I only speak from experience. When you add it all up, my experience of life is narrow compared to others. But from the narrowness I have gone through, Ive experienced massive amounts of pain and abuse. I dont blame myself for not wanting to throw myself in front of a firing squad.

People who look beyond physical attributes in my narrow view is the example of the needle in the haystack I talk about. I know theyre out there, but ill never find her. I admire that aspect of you very much. It angers me when someone looks at two people and judge whether or not they are right for each other, just by physical aspects. "Oh she can do better." Oh really, why is that? Because hes a little overweight, hes not rich, hes not this or that, he doesnt meet the qualifications or something? The most ignorant aspect of dating is that people create a range for themselves top to bottom. They feel they cant go above or below that range. They think they have to find someone equal to them in looks, ethnicity, and finance. The type of person that goes into a bar and can pick out who is too attractive to approach, and who is too unattractive for them to approach, and who is within their range without knowing any of them. Thats why i see alot of overweight people with overweight people, slim people with slim people, muscular with muscular, short people with short people, tall people with tall people, attractive with attractive, average with average, below average with below average, and etc. The world is too predictable. So "what is she doing with him?" I wish I could walk up to a person each time they say that and tell them, cos doing better doesnt mean being with someone more physically attractive. She loves him you conceited fool.

Dont mean to be judgemental with your husband. But, your not a contract with incentives and guarantees. Nor is he. So the trophy has lost some of its shine, and has gathered rust, but he need not forget, it has no baring on the prestigue of such a great award you are to him. And im not talking about being a trophy wife. Please, I must ask you not to compare him to me. There are many deep underlining reasons why I do not love myself, but I am willing to learn. The lack of love I have for myself would not reflect how I feel about someone else. Not even in the least. Unless you can elaborate on your recent alted physical health I cannot fully understand why his feelings would change. Even so I probably still wouldnt, because I dont care what the circumstance is of your health physically, It should never change how anyone feels about you emotionally.

I know love isnt happily ever after. Love is a broad word. There is beauty and happiness within it, there is suffering and pain as well. Anything, and I mean anything is better than being loveless and hollow. Its very interesting the way you describe your relationship as if it was this unwritten contract. A agreement. Of course there should be agreements on both sides of any relationship. Mutual agreements. Im just concerned about the guidelines you choose for yourself. Not for wanting to have someone treat you well, but for accepting the role of a "trophy wife." You acknowledge and admit that. We all make sacrifices to get things we want out of life. Forgive me if I feel that was too much of a sacrifice to make. Noone should sacrifice potions of their happiness. That is why I could not accept being in relationships in the past. Cos I knew there would be a part of me, my happiness, my beliefs, my lifestyle that would be sacrificed. Of course I would gain the joy of having someone in my life and never having to be lonely. But like you said, if it isnt for the right reaons, it can fall apart. I have to be true to myself.

I would feel foolish as a man who has never even had a girlfriend, to try to advise or even give my opinion on your situation. So I suppose I will refrain from doing so. But I do deeply hope that someday your faith and beliefs can guide you into a happier situation. I understand why people feel bound to oneanother even if they are both miserable. There is always extenduating circumstances. And it is not easy to just let go.

I am afraid of being hurt. Because I know my heart all too well. It is raw from years of abuse and rejection and pain. Its even more critical now that I protect myself from alot of painful situations because im at my weakest and most vulnerable and hopeless stage of my life. The next painful event could literally be my last. I had a strong heart. But nothing stays strong forever. I am hurting right now like Ive never been hurt before. I feel like someone is twisting a knife around in my chest. Im so affected and consumed with every little thing. Theres not a second of relief. It follows me into my sleep. But when your so compassionate about something, the failure of it is just hard to bear. Especially when it includes the fact that im fighting for my life.

Loving someone more than they love you is settling just as much as loving someone lessor than they love you. Doesnt have to be a perfect world to be mutual. Love is not a measuring stick. Well, it shouldnt be, people make it that way. Theres no 1 to 10. It shouldnt be a little or alot. Either its there and apparent or its not. And I know that people can sense whether its mutual or not. It shows, it really shows. I could not imagine marrying someone when my heart was with someone else. Your story is so intriguing yet so volatile. You both overlooked alot, and placed alot of expectations in trivial things. Yet have so much devotion.

Being in safe mode, it seems like thats a very comforting place to be in life. Thats a sacrifice in itself. Ill live without the pleasure of love, as long as I can avoid the pain. Ive felt the pain. Im feeling it now. Unfortunately, there is no safe mode I can find. Just something inside me could never allow me to get to that point. I wish so badly I could be content. But i just keep burning and burning inside. I felt the pain. It is equal to the pleasure. One is not greater than the other. So I guess the great question for me is, is the pain worth the pleasure. Is the pleasure worth the pain................ She said she loved me, she brought me to my feet. She said she lied, she brought me to my knees...................... Yes, its worth it. Cos, its more than what I have now. There is no pleasure, in lonliness.

Patience is my BIGGEST enemy. Im ready to jump like a kangaroo to the first girl who says she accept me for me. Why wouldnt I, ill probably never hear it again. Thats why im still clinging to her. I could in a relationship now if it was just cos i didnt want to be alone. But if I did id still feel alone. I really appreciate that part of myself. But when you know youve found someone special, its hard to hold back and hold it inside. I do believe its better to give than to receive. But you should always receive what youve given. Even if its in a smaller box than the one you give out, it should be just as special.

Man Apart 05-25-2004 09:26 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Lori J. I appreciate so so much that you would put yourself in a painful situation just to recommend a book for me. I have ot admit, the way my mind is now its hard fo rm eto sit and focus on a good read. Bu till try. Um, the lexapro um, ummm, I um, kind of um, stopped taking it. I know, its very counter-productive of me. I started back taking them today. Ive falling completely off the wagon. Im binging on food, i lay around all day now that i lost my job and exercising is a after-thought. I had my most potent anti-depressant taken from me basically and im just in bad shape right now. Keep me up to date with everything, I hope it all goes well.

sherry47 05-25-2004 10:04 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Man Apart,

I don't mind answering your questions. My physical health has deteriorated over the years. I had a spinal fusion with titanium cages in January of this year. I have been suffering with my back problems for several years and took the big leap to have surgery. We have always had a very active lifestyle. We believed in "living" life to the fullest with our children. Took them camping, hiking, boating, basically anything that had to do with being outside. We have always been very involved in little league sports with our children. Not just sitting on the sidelines, but getting involved. Coaching and different things. I guess the reason our marriage has worked as long as it has is because we are both so devoted to our children. Anyway, as my back got progressively worse, I had to withdraw from "participating" in these activities. We would also take mini-vacations every month. Our financial situation has changed dramatically for a number of reasons so we are no longer able to even take the mini-vacations. (Hubby lost his job of 16 years in June of 03 due to company closing. Then in November of 03, I had to quit work for good due to my health. I am still fighting for my SSDI benefits. Because of all of this we are now living on about 50,000 less a year.) Hubby did find another job almost right away because of his experience. The company he now works for found out about the other company closing and called him. He never even applied to them. So we were thankful for that, but he did have to take a large pay cut. We live in a very rural area and there just aren't any jobs around here that pay what he was making.

You mentioned that you never want to hurt this bad again. Well, that was my reason for settling. You see, I was scared to death of ever feeling that way again. I never wanted to hurt like that again and I knew he didn't have the power to do that to me. Maybe I was wrong for looking at it like that, maybe not. I do love my husband. I realize I didn't make that clear in my original post. No, I was not "in love" with him when we were married, but our marriage grew to something more comfortable. It's more like a mutual respect and devotion not that heart pounding, palms sweating, hormones racing type of "love". Things are not that great for us right now because of my health and the added stress of the financial situation. But we just have to adjust to this new way of life. Our children will also have to make some adjustments. But the type of marriage we have will survive this "breach of contract". It's what works for us. Because our marriage doesn't depend solely on what other peoples definition of love is, it can survive things others cannot.

In my opinion the marriages that last eventually settle into more of a strong commitment to one another. I don't think the head over heals can't live without the other person type of love stays that way, I think over time it sort of fades. If you are one of the lucky ones,it grows into the strong commitment, if you are in the majority, one of the people in that relationship searches for that heart pounding love elsewhere. I think if you are in the later group, you will spend your life chasing that initial "love". Personally, I could not stand going through the ups and downs of that. I prefer a more stable commitment. And no, I don't mind being the "trophy wife". It's actually flattering. To this day, if someone stares a little too long, my husband will scream at them "what in the hell are you looking at?"

Who knows, maybe when the children are grown, the variables in the "contract" may change too much to adapt to. And just maybe, we may find it still works for us.

If you don't think you can live without that heart pounding love, then by all means go for it. I, however, could not take the chance of being hurt that deeply ever again. I'm the once burnt, twice shy type of person.

Good luck.

God Bless,

Genabeena 05-25-2004 10:59 AM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
So, let's see. First question, what's a tdh and a pov? TDH = tall, dark, and handsome (don't roll your eyes at me!) and POV = point of view. So now you know.

Iím being totally honest (Iím a very honest person) when I say that having scrolled through and looked at a fair number of male candidates on that website, you Rod, were the best candidate as far as I could see, and thatís taking into account both your photo and your profile. I mean, [I]REALLY[/I], some of those guys looked very pretentious, some just seemed weird, and some were very conceited. You, on the other hand, came off as very natural, straight-forward, decent, reasonable, attractive, loving, etc... So now Iím just worried, not so much about you finding love, but Iím worried about you jumping into a less than suitable situation. I am so glad you told that girl ďno.Ē I know it may have been tempting, but you could have very well landed yourself in a very unhappy situation. Marriage is a HUGE, life-altering decision. You were right to feel suspicious. You were right to think itís important to get to know someone first.

That said, I have to say (not to be negative), but I scrolled through a large number of the Asian female profiles, and Iím nervous because as I read through one after another, I became more and more aware of the possibility that many of those women may be very eager to marry a U.S. citizen primarily as a means to get to the United States and to obtain citizenship. I know you say youíre desperate, but youíre [I]not that desperate[/I]. Anyway, I donít think of you as desperate so much as passionate. That passion is an extremely powerful quality about you. Donít contradict me on that. When you speak about love and marriage and having a family, etcÖ it really is about enough to make me pass out! I [I]never[/I] hear people say those things!

[QUOTE=Man Apart]I cant really say im in a healing process Gena. I dont mean to conflict against how you feel but its just the truth. Im not really healing and im constantly being scarred. Ive tried. Ive tried to get help an dlearn how to heal but the only thing that can cure the destructive trail of hate in my life is a productive trail of love. Not only from someone else but, from ME to myself.[/QUOTE]
I understand what youíre saying, Rod. I do. And I respect that you have your own take on it. [I]You[/I] know how you feel inside. Nobody can try to say they know how you feel or what you think.

[QUOTE=Man Apart]Im always concerned about sounding like a soap opera because, this really isnt the romance board. [/QUOTE]
Well, Iím not worried about going off on a love tangent here. Itís an important issue for you. Itís an important piece of the puzzle affecting your well-being.

Next, you want a womanís perspective on what you are doing wrong. Nothing. Youíre not doing anything wrong. Itís a crapshoot. Life is a crapshoot, love is a crapshoot. Itís the same for everyone. It may sound pessimistic, but thatís what I believe. The best you can do is work hard to make yourself into the best person you can be, stay open, know a good opportunity when it comes your way, be willing to take some chances, and above all else, have a good sense of humor. Is that a disappointing answer? The good news is, youíre really not doing anything wrong, so good things are bound to come your way if you keep going in the right direction.

I like the pizza place dream, just because it would be so fun to go out for pizza w/you! (Only I hope they would have a pizza with a whole wheat crust.) O.k., now Iím getting kind of silly. Did I assume too much about your dream? I dunno, I realized that your initial description was pretty vague, but I thought that my interpretation was pretty vague too. Iím not worried about you being a TCM. Are you worried that [I]I'm[/I] a TCM? I realize, though- now that you tell me more about your dream- that there is a lot more to it than my initial impression. What a wild dream! Iím going to have to think about it more. No, you werenít wrong about me. Youíre a very perceptive guy. I do keep very busy- sometimes because I have to, and sometimes because I want to. I am highly prone to depressive episodes, though. Thatís part of the reason I keep so busy. That way I donít have time to be depressed and dwell on things that upset me. BTW, Iím not recommending that as a cure for depression, although I have found it to be a good coping mechanism.

About that word ďspunky.Ē Thatís not the first time Iíve been called that, but I have kind of a problem with that word. Donít worry, Iím not mad. You couldnít have known. Itís just that the word, to me, kind of suggests that there is something unusual, humorous, or cute about a woman who is strong and has vitality. No big deal. I can laugh at myself. (Great, now Iím really going to get an earful. J/K)

[QUOTE=Man Apart]I just need someone to help me or advice me when I write her or talk to her. [/QUOTE]
My advice is: know what you want. Get that figured out ahead of time, with a cool head. Then, when you talk to her, be objective, not emotional. (Itís so easy to get swept away with emotion). Above all else, be honest with yourself, and be honest with her. This is no longer a time of initial impressions and false fronts. This is a time to be dead honest.

[QUOTE=Man Apart]Oh and I think im aware mentally and interpersonally, but oblivious emotionally and intrapersonally. [/QUOTE]
Youíre a lot more in-touch intrapersonally than most people I know. You may be confused in that area, but at least you have awareness of that fact. That puts you way ahead of the game as far as the general population goes.

[QUOTE=Man Apart]Forgive me if I cant wait on you to take me through another 4 months of lying to just find out your still not sure....I wish I didnt love you. Cos loving you hurts. [/QUOTE]
This Lily seems very sweet, but my intuition tells me itís not quite right. I mean, sheís involved with this other guy, and sheís not sure. I donít think she meant to flatly lie. Itís just that perhaps sheís confused. I donít know. She is soooooo young- a baby. What on earth is she doing with this 40 something guy? Looking for stability, Iím sure. So many women fall into that trap. Itís because we can be very insecure and frightened as we come of age, and we mistakenly think that some older guy is going to protect us and take care of us, etcÖ. I donít know enough about the situation to judge, but it just seems like a very difficult situation. I know you could find something more workable. I say, you can do nothing more than let her make her own mistakes, and as for you, just keep moving on. Youíre doing fine. (Relatively speaking, of course.)

ďLove hurts.Ē Thatís one of my favorite realities about love. Love is pain. They are two sides of the same coin- inseparable. In order to have love, one must also invite in that pain- such a dilemma! Here are a few more descriptions of love that I like:

ďLove heals all wounds.Ē This is very true. Anyone who thinks that entering into a love relationship has nothing to do with expectations about what that love is going to do for them is so sadly mistaken. Itís what itís all about, healing one anotherís battered psyches (like it or not). Itís about taking care of one another and lifting one another up. Like you say, Rod, you want to treat that woman like a queen. The thing is, you have to find someone who wants to treat you like a king. Otherwise, the whole thing is off-balance.

And hereís my favorite:

ďLove is the opening up of one heart to another.Ē Guess who I heard that one from. Yep, Joseph Campbell.

I dunno, Rodric. Maybe you should consider getting back to focusing on people within the United States. That way youíll have a better chance of finding someone who is willing to get together for a movie or a pizza, and get to know you more slowly. Let your hearts open up to one another naturally, like the petals of a flower. You donít ask a flower how long it will take to open its petals, do you? You just keep watering it, feeding it, watching it, and hoping.

One website I noticed that seems o.k.- and that seems like its free- is called ďfriendfinder.comĒ. Maybe youíd be more likely to find a like-minded individual there. (Just an idea.) But, for heavenís sake, take your time! Otherwise youíre going to give me a heart-attack.

Gena S

Man Apart 05-25-2004 05:46 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Do you think God would forgive me. Does he forgive the weak and fearful. Or am I just ignorant. But still, would he forgive me. I throw myself at his mercy. Is there a sin that cant be forgiven. My desire for death is almost the equivalent for my desire of love. Or.. Maybe I love death. Maybe death loves me. All I know is, love could not be further. Death could not feel closer.

If I could just stand one night alone in my mind. I could truly understand what it is I hide from. Ive had so many chances to make things clear, but I cant face facts. There is a reason why I hide. Reality is a monster. My reality. Because in my reality, I am simply insane. There isnt much to my reality or my existence. Just a facade of pain and constant isolation. I'm on hell's waiting list. There was no more room at the time I guess. All those times, all those failed attempts. For now Im allowed to walk the earth. Hell's second home for me. But I can see them all. Waiting for me. They say welcome brother. Welcome home.

A world created to conquer each other. No wonder I feel defeated. Noone can help me now. Ive peered inside the brightest of minds and they still have no clue. I can never heal from these wounds. Im trapped inside my mind. Trapped into insanity. That is a cruel way to live. Being conscious of your insanity. A tortured mind being torn apart and raped. All those doctors and all those meds, couldnt put Rodric back together again.

Its raining outside. Just like its raining inside me. Little infinite drops, like tears of pain. Im drowning in it in a way. Im just a misplaced soul. A walking tomb in the graveyard. I dont ever remember dying but im very much dead. Im just trying to figure out how the hell I got here and who am I. Ok so im shallow. Sue me. You try living in this world looking the way I do. See how you like it. See how long you keep believing in the inside. Beauty tortures me. Its like weeds envying the rose. Does envy make me evil?

I can barely breathe right now. My room is a mess. I only come out of my room when im hungry or need to use the bathroom. My sister wanted to see me the other day. She knocked on the door and I never answered. Later that night I came out of the room while everyone was sleep. I saw a big bag on my doorknob. She had bought me some clothes and there was a card inside. As if to say, brother, I miss you, I love you, I am still thinking of you. I cried. Because, she doesnt realize, i dont exist. She has no brother.

There are so many judgemental people roaming around. Pointing, staring, judging. Oh wait, my dad just knock on the door. "yes? im up."... "are you ok son, I havent seen you today, im just checking on you." Yeah im fine dad."... 3 days ago I was in the kitchen and he told me he was proud of me. As if thats some feeble attempt to tell me, son please dont kill yourself. I feel so bad for my parents. I am the worst thing that ever could have happened in their lives. I ruined their lives with my existence. They didnt know. They should have but they didnt know it would be this way.

I hate to say this for Enoch's sake. Of course I currently am not a God fearing man. Well maybe I am I dunno. I can fear even that I dont believe in. But what if this God that everyone is bowing to in life was actually evil. This world would make so much sense. It would explain ALOT. Wouldnt that be something.

I lost myself a looooong time ago. Spending my entire life following a trail of blood. I guess that why stare into the mirror sometimes trying to catch a glimspe of what I used to be. I remember one time in the bathroom I broke the mirror. Pieces of it fell into the sink. I looked into the pieces in the sink. Nothing changed. I saw the samething. I feel like im engaged to death. Its my wedding day. Im wearing my dark suit. Death look so beautiful. I tried to cheat on her once. But love wasnt interested in me. And life was cruel. We've had wedding days before. But I always got cold feet. But she is always there. Here she comes. She is wearing a dark veil. She places the ring is on my finger. All I have to say, is I do.

Genabeena 05-25-2004 06:48 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
Rodric, don't. Don't talk this way. I need you to tell me you "hear" me, because I'm really worried and can't go home and go to bed until I hear this from you.

Gena S

enoch 05-25-2004 08:21 PM

Re: From Man Apart.............To Geena and anyone else who cares.
man apart you could be right about everything - god creates man in his own image - god himself says he creates the light and creates darkness - he brings prosperity and creates disaster - he the lord does all these things. isaiah 45:7 - but man apart free will means you can become your own free agent in perception and clarity - and if you can do that then you do have the power of life and death in your own hands - and can do what ever you decide - now if I can go that far with you - can you see one thing here - what if your wrong about everything? or what if your right about everything but not coming to the right conclusion? could that be possible? what if your are right about everything and so far even the suffering is worth something on some level but then you lose that through a blunder coming from some place else besides all the things you know as right? words words words - when really a hug your heart could feel would be so soothing to your jagged nerves and broken heart - enoch would miss man apart - enoch is stupid he thinks your a beautiful person and a brother - but he does not know your pain. does not stand in your shoes and has nothing to fix you with. suppose I would have used it on myself to if I did. all I can say is what you already know.

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