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    Old 05-17-2004, 09:42 PM   #1
    Wonderingwhy
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    Angry To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    I just thought I'd share my experience with you. You commented that "People cause suicide/homocide...not drugs..drugs do not change who you are". I agree with the general overtone of that statement when people blame drugs, ect when wackos who were wackos before they were put on medication go out and kill people.
    BUT I DO BELIEVE SSRI's can lead people to suicidal thought, as much as they can help a lot of people
    I was never suicidal before effexor. Three months after being put on the drug, I was obsessed with killing myself. Now that I am trying to detox off the drug, I am having panic attacks. The more they upped my dose, the more I wanted to kill myself.
    On the other hand, I know people who say prozac has "changed their life' for the better. I am SO HAPPY FOR THEM. But I do believe doctors need to talk to their patients and warn of both the negative and positive of these drugs. I was never warned that detoxing would cause panic attacks. I just thought I was crazy. I am still not off effexor and am scared to death to step down the dose because I will have more panic attacks. (never had one before I started detoxing)

    Anyways, I think "SSRI bashing" IS going to do people harm that need the drugs, but the people who DON'T need the drugs or respond badly to them, aren't monitored or warned properly by health care professionals. I wasn't warned that I could go from being OK to being suicidal because of a drug that was supposed to help me

    Last edited by Wonderingwhy; 05-17-2004 at 09:43 PM.

     
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    Old 05-17-2004, 10:02 PM   #2
    Portia26
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    I am assuming you are referring to my responses in Sandalla's thread "Effexor Nightmare - Please Read". This was my initial response:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Portia26
    I am so SICK of the fear mongering that goes on online. I agree that our society is overmedicated, and I think these drugs should NOT be used on those who don't absolutely need it. However... these drugs have done wonders for millions of people in the world, myself included. I think I would be dead WITHOUT them, effexor in particular. I don't think any of us reading this board is stupid enough not to know about any risks for side effects, etc. But to say these drugs CAUSE suicide and homicide is just not something I can agree with. PEOPLE cause suicide and homicide, not DRUGS. People who commit these suicides/crimes are SEVERELY depressed to begin with, psychotic, etc.. and have problems that the drugs just aren't helping, unfortunately. I am so sick of people implying that an SSRI can cause murder is someone who was not otherwise going to do it. That is ridiculous. These drugs do not change who you are. Depression and psychosis does.
    However, if you took the time to read my whole thread you would have also read the following responses I had to the poor people who told me their tragic stories of their experiences with Effexor:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Portia26
    I am so sorry these drugs have reeked so much havoc in your lives. Perhaps since I have not experienced it myself, I do not understand. I'll give you that. I think Tanis tells a perfect story of overmedication. I firmly believe that those who do not ABSOLUTELY need these meds should NOT take them. Lack of energy and a desire to quit smoking is not a good enough reason. They are SO overprescribed. Tanis's story tends to make me think there there must be some genetic component to these intense side effects... they happened to her whole family. I just get really frightened, as I imagine others who are doing well on these drugs do, when people throw around words like suicide and homicide. I suppose if we are not experiencing the mental anguish you describe then we have nothing to worry about. A side note about myself: I have OCD, in the form of unwanted obsessions. Mine are unwanted obsessions of harming others. So whenever people talk about the SSRI's causing violence, it strikes a major chord in me and I feel the need to speak up. These posts increase the anxiety of people like me, with OCD obsessions, to increase so much. I'm not really trying to get you to take back anything you are saying, but I'm here to give a balanced perspective for those of us reading who worry about violence, and are on SSRI's. I can't imagine going through what you both describe. Sounds like the hell I was in BEFORE I went on meds, oddly enough. Isn't that ironic... such a strange drug that can literally make people have opposite responses. I really believe though that this happens when the drug is prescribed unnecessarily, which unfortunately happens all to often.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Portia26
    Thanks for being understanding to me and responding. I'm sorry too if my initial response to your post struck a nerve with you. We all have different experiences...(post quote cut for brevity)... I don't ask any more of my meds than to get me to the point where I can take care of the rest of the problems myself. I think if I were to see a psychiatrist, they might argue that my symptoms seem to show that I am not responding well enough to meds, and to increase my dose. I am not going to do this. And if it comes to the point where they no longer work, we will see what I will do then. Perhaps I will try another round without the drugs. Ideally, I would love not to have to take them. But without them, I am not capable of working on my problems with OCD and GAD. For me, going on meds has not been the glamorous miracle it appears to have been to some. I do believe I am still firmly grounded in reality. I still fight the fight every day. But meds have helped me to fight. I have become more responsible, more caring and more mature in the last few months. I do NOT attribute this to meds. My meds allowed me to face my demons, but I had to do that on my own. It has taken and it still taking a lot of hard work with my therapist. I agree that most people need to know as much as possible about these meds before starting them. But liek you said Sandalla, when you first read up on Effexor, you were so scared, you decided to ignore what you read. But then, you posted a VERY frightening message, so do you understand what I'm getting at? It's all about balance. Maybe people will, like you, be so scared when they read your post that they too will resist reading anything negative in the future because they were so scared, and then they may encounter side effects and have no clue what to do. I am promoting a healthy balance of information here. I really think a solution would be the enzyme test. So many people could be spared problems. I wonder how we could get e movement going in favor of this test being standard practice? And by the way Sandalla, how are you doing now? I hope things are great for you, after such a struggle. And you too Tanis. Are you back with your children? Is everyone OK? Let me know, and everyone, pardon my initial hostility. I think we all understand eachother a lot better now.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Portia26
    I'm sorry it came out that way. I'm so sorry you went through that, and felt so depressed. I believe you when you say it was the drugs. I was just mad and scared when I wrote that. Again, I apologize. Fortunately for me I suppose, I clearly don't understand how bad the withdrawals can be. But on the other side of the coin, I have reached that level of despair, so I do know how that feels. Ironically, before I went on meds. We are all so different. Seems like it's playing Russian roulette with these drugs!
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Portia26
    I totally agree that we MUST find a way to prevent these horrible side effects from happening. I am saying that the side effects of these meds can most certainly PUSH you to any number of horrible outcomes, but it must be noted that these side effects can only be one of a NUMBER of factors that lead to such horrible crimes/tragedies. That being said, I think we must fight to learn more GENUINE, SCIENTIFIC information about these drugs. EXTREME CAUTION must be used in prescribing them! IE: Prozac for WEIGHT LOSS? Insanity. These drugs are being abused all over the place. However, they have also helped many. If only we could find a way to figure out who they may help and who they may hinder BEFORE people are put through such pain.
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Portia26
    I agree, the science is just NOT established the way it is for insulin and diabetes. It is not a logical comparison. And by no means will suicidal/homicidal people be better if they only take these meds... so much more needs to be done for these people, and sadly, it seems that sometimes nothing can be done to stop them.

    I am really sorry that you had such a hard time with Effexor and that you are having a hard time coming off of it. I agree that it is important to get the message out that some people have a very difficult time with this drug. We need to work on a way to prevent this from happening! However, you can now see that I sympathize with where you are coming from... I wish you had simply read the entire thread first to see that I already did agree with you before you start typing up my name in all caps in your thread title... be a little more thorough the next time you accuse someone of something. Take good care of yourself, and best of luck with the Effexor withdrawal!

     
    Old 05-17-2004, 10:44 PM   #3
    tanis
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    I understand your anger. I only wish that the drug makers and doctors would read these threads, and see what people are going through.
    When you said that you were obsessed with killing yourself, I remembered that feeling exactly. Someone does need to take a good look at that, because it is all too real.
    For those of you who have had great success with these meds, that is so wonderful and do not need to dwell on anything negative that has been said. I think these threads should be made to be available for anyone who is contemplating going on the drugs. They need to know the good and the bad and know to be properly monitered while starting them. They need to make sure that their doctors give you all of the possible side effects, but be aware that many won't. Therefore make sure they themselves are very well educated before making the leap.

    Last edited by tanis; 05-17-2004 at 10:46 PM.

     
    Old 05-17-2004, 10:50 PM   #4
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    I never had panic attacks in my life til I was put on effexor, didn't take it more than 3 weeks & went off of it, but still have the panic attacks now. Thank you effexor. I take tricyclics, there is no withdrawal & the side effects are minimal.

     
    Old 05-17-2004, 11:30 PM   #5
    Portia26
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tanis
    I understand your anger. I only wish that the drug makers and doctors would read these threads, and see what people are going through.
    When you said that you were obsessed with killing yourself, I remembered that feeling exactly. Someone does need to take a good look at that, because it is all too real.
    For those of you who have had great success with these meds, that is so wonderful and do not need to dwell on anything negative that has been said. I think these threads should be made to be available for anyone who is contemplating going on the drugs. They need to know the good and the bad and know to be properly monitered while starting them. They need to make sure that their doctors give you all of the possible side effects, but be aware that many won't. Therefore make sure they themselves are very well educated before making the leap.
    I totally agree Tanis, and I hope you are doing well!

     
    Old 05-17-2004, 11:40 PM   #6
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Hi Portia:

    I am starting a thread on the suicidal/panic attacks people have suffered after the meds. I felt so alone when that was happening to me. So to have a place like this to beable to talk and vent about it is awesome. I didn't have the internet when it went on. I still have problems as far as self esteem and find it very difficult to go anywhere. I do not feel depressed, but I know that I am not normal. My kids suffer with the not getting out as well. So things are not perfect as I said, but like I said also, I welcome this compared to that.
    I so don't want to offend anyone, as we are all here for our own reasons. I sure wish you well.

    talk to you again.

     
    Old 05-18-2004, 07:22 AM   #7
    Sandalla
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    WonderingWhy. I so feel for you. I so, so, so feel for you. You’ve obviously read my thread so you know we are both on exactly the same page, at the same time.

    You’ll see that Portia and I also butted heads a little in the beginning. But with all that, I have never made any apologies for any of my warnings, wording or the tone of my message. If anything, I wish I could have made my words literally jump off the page screaming, and hit people in the face if need be. Anything, to help others avoid going through this same nightmare.

    I feel your anger. I am still working on mine!

    It is truly an absolute violation and a rape. Thousands upon thousands of innocent and very vulnerable people are being RAPED by these drug companies. This is a crime of such magnitude, it is just despicable! Those bodies of people who are withholding the information – from the in-house researchers and executives, to the so-called “independent” researchers and doctors, to those individuals within the FDA and other government agencies – they are all PEOPLE. People, people, people. Not computers or machines! People! People with brains and living organisms. THEY MUST BE HELD INDIVIDUALLY ACCOUNTABLE! They must be tried as the vile criminals they are. Not just the drug companies sued for $X millions. The individual people behind this must, must, must be held responsible for their part in the crime.

    Look what happened to Bill Clinton. Look at Martha Stewart. Now what on G-d’s earth did these two people do to deserve what they got?!!! How can this be compared with the atrocities being committed on hundreds of thousands of innocent lives every day, day after day? Does anyone know of any child suffocating or even being scratched by one of Martha Stewart’s pretty little towels? WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO???

    Deep breath!

    Having got that off my chest … I will be back shortly to respond to your personal cry for help on your other thread.

     
    Old 05-18-2004, 08:39 AM   #8
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Sandalla, I've posted here about the dangers of prescription antidepressants and the deception of the drug companie$. Unfortunately, I've found my effort to spread awareness to be a waste of time. All you have to do is see how many posts there are on this board from people having problems with antidepressants and that little light should go off over a person's head, warning them that these drugs are bad news and not the best choice for treating depression. But that just isn't the case. Thanks to the conditioning of the drug companie$ (feel depressed -> go to the doctor -> be put on meds), people will continue to take these meds.

     
    Old 05-18-2004, 12:28 PM   #9
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by isolated one
    Sandalla, I've posted here about the dangers of prescription antidepressants and the deception of the drug companie$. Unfortunately, I've found my effort to spread awareness to be a waste of time. All you have to do is see how many posts there are on this board from people having problems with antidepressants and that little light should go off over a person's head, warning them that these drugs are bad news and not the best choice for treating depression. But that just isn't the case. Thanks to the conditioning of the drug companie$ (feel depressed -> go to the doctor -> be put on meds), people will continue to take these meds.
    Well, at least lately there has been some progress in that area...with the FDA investigations of clinical trials of AD's on children with unfavorable result to the recent end of the Neurontin lawsuit in which evidence of doctor paying and false promotion of the drug for unapproved conditions led to a guilty verdict. Guilty! Drug co's are finally being taken down a notch after years of hidding the truth and settling many cases out of court.

    This is history-making exposure. But this means the drug company is no longer responsible for any prescribing of Neurontin from now on; the doctors are. Unfortunately, it is not illegal to prescribe Neurontin or any other drug for an off-label use, so there's the loophole which will keep the problems coming as long as people trust their doctor to do the right thing. I think the law should be changed, what good is FDA approval for this drug/that condition when such experimenting is allowed to continue?

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-18-2004 at 12:29 PM.

     
    Old 05-19-2004, 08:33 PM   #10
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by isolated one
    Sandalla, I've posted here about the dangers of prescription antidepressants and the deception of the drug companie$. Unfortunately, I've found my effort to spread awareness to be a waste of time. All you have to do is see how many posts there are on this board from people having problems with antidepressants and that little light should go off over a person's head, warning them that these drugs are bad news and not the best choice for treating depression. But that just isn't the case. Thanks to the conditioning of the drug companie$ (feel depressed -> go to the doctor -> be put on meds), people will continue to take these meds.
    Sigh! I hear you, I hear you.
    I still just feel it in my gut … this foul scandal is going to blow up … soon!
    I've obviously just become aware of all this very recently. You guys I can see have been "around" for a while.
    Do you think I’m being overly optimistic … ?


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    This is history-making exposure. But this means the drug company is no longer responsible for any prescribing of Neurontin from now on; the doctors are. Unfortunately, it is not illegal to prescribe Neurontin or any other drug for an off-label use, so there's the loophole which will keep the problems coming as long as people trust their doctor to do the right thing. I think the law should be changed, what good is FDA approval for this drug/that condition when such experimenting is allowed to continue?
    I know, it's nuts. Well just maybe, hopefully, doctors will now think twice before prescribing off-label. Knowing that it’s their personal butts on the line!

     
    Old 05-20-2004, 02:55 AM   #11
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    ...........

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    Old 05-20-2004, 12:49 PM   #12
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tesseract
    You guys may well already be familiar with him but if not check out the work of Peter Breggin:

    [ removed ]

    I am convinced this is the only psychiatrist in the world who is sincere and unafraid of the truth regarding psych. meds and there's alot of info. on the ssri's here. He's done alot of testifying in the landmark psych. drug lawsuits.
    I'm a huge fan. He gets blasted alot as being in it for the money because of his profits from selling anti-drug books and testifying in court. Well, I've seen plenty of pro-drug books out there so who's getting that profit...... and any professional will want to be paid for their time to testify, whether it's for or against the drug issue.

    I also like Dr. Anne Tracy. She's been saying AD's are dangerous for years and years; nobody was really listening but now the tide is turning.

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-20-2004 at 12:52 PM.

     
    Old 05-21-2004, 03:26 PM   #13
    Sandalla
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    Thumbs up Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Yes, these two people truly are admirable. But there are many, many other heroes out there too.

    Some that immediately spring to mind are David Healy, Charles Medawar, Loren Mosher and Thomas Szasz, plus many, many more. And of course, Joseph Glenmullen (Prozac Backlash - Overcoming the Dangers of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Other Antidepressants With Safe, Effective Alternatives) – I myself don’t suffer from chronic depression, but I would certainly think this book would be a valuable read for many others on this board.

    Also of note is the work of Dr Jay Cohen. His website makes for interesting reading.

    We are very fortunate to have these people around. Despite all the roadblocks and brick walls they’ve been running into over the last 10 or so years, they continue to stand by their values and fight the good fight. Hats off to them!

     
    Old 05-21-2004, 08:30 PM   #14
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    Re: To PORTIA...and everyone who thinks that SSRI's aren't harming people

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Sandalla
    Yes, these two people truly are admirable. But there are many, many other heroes out there too.

    Some that immediately spring to mind are David Healy, Charles Medawar, Loren Mosher and Thomas Szasz, plus many, many more. And of course, Joseph Glenmullen (Prozac Backlash - Overcoming the Dangers of Prozac, Zoloft, Paxil, and Other Antidepressants With Safe, Effective Alternatives) – I myself don’t suffer from chronic depression, but I would certainly think this book would be a valuable read for many others on this board.

    Also of note is the work of Dr Jay Cohen. His website makes for interesting reading.

    We are very fortunate to have these people around. Despite all the roadblocks and brick walls they’ve been running into over the last 10 or so years, they continue to stand by their values and fight the good fight. Hats off to them!
    My hat is off for them! I had heard of most of them, but not Jay Cohen. Thanks for the tip, I'll be checking out his site soon.

     
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