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    Old 09-04-2005, 07:35 AM   #1
    ratboy83
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    Question does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    in the past i've beaten my depression with areobic exercise. i'm doing that but only half the time and the other half i'm doing weights (last time i did so much cycling and my legs were HUGE but my upper body was quite small, so i want to make sure i'm proportionate this time!). anyway, nuff waffle, with doing my weights i've increased the amount of protein in my diet to help me bulk up (i think part of the reason last time i was slim upper body wise was my body didn't have enough protein so it used my upper body to feed the growth of my quads!). i've noticed my mood has been gradually improving but not at the same rate as when i just did aerobic stuff. i know that too much protein can favour the release of noradreanline and dopamine instead of serotonin so do you think that this type of exercise that requires a fair bit of protein is hindering my progress? after all, serotonin is so heavily indicated in depression. to hinder its releasae seems unwise to me, but at the same time i do want to bulk up still. alternatively, have people found that doing aerobic stuff is more effective at treating depression than weights? maybe thats the reason its not working as well- the reduction in aerobic exercise. or maybe its the combo of the two thats slowing my recovery. any verdicts???

    alex.

    Last edited by ratboy83; 09-04-2005 at 07:37 AM.

     
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    Old 09-04-2005, 01:27 PM   #2
    Jennita
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ratboy83
    in the past i've beaten my depression with areobic exercise. i'm doing that but only half the time and the other half i'm doing weights (last time i did so much cycling and my legs were HUGE but my upper body was quite small, so i want to make sure i'm proportionate this time!). anyway, nuff waffle, with doing my weights i've increased the amount of protein in my diet to help me bulk up (i think part of the reason last time i was slim upper body wise was my body didn't have enough protein so it used my upper body to feed the growth of my quads!). i've noticed my mood has been gradually improving but not at the same rate as when i just did aerobic stuff. i know that too much protein can favour the release of noradreanline and dopamine instead of serotonin so do you think that this type of exercise that requires a fair bit of protein is hindering my progress? after all, serotonin is so heavily indicated in depression. to hinder its releasae seems unwise to me, but at the same time i do want to bulk up still. alternatively, have people found that doing aerobic stuff is more effective at treating depression than weights? maybe thats the reason its not working as well- the reduction in aerobic exercise. or maybe its the combo of the two thats slowing my recovery. any verdicts???

    alex.
    I'm not sure enough here, but I do know that you need carbohydrate for the release of tryptophan to the brain. Tryptophan makes serotonin, and tryptophan is found in protein foods. So I doubt protein is the problem unless you have a very, very low carb diet. Carbs are also protein sparing, meaning they provide energy so your protein does not have too and then it can be used for the production of neurotransmitters , skin hair nail muscle production, etc.

     
    Old 09-19-2005, 07:20 AM   #3
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    I'm not sure enough here, but I do know that you need carbohydrate for the release of tryptophan to the brain. Tryptophan makes serotonin, and tryptophan is found in protein foods. So I doubt protein is the problem unless you have a very, very low carb diet. Carbs are also protein sparing, meaning they provide energy so your protein does not have too and then it can be used for the production of neurotransmitters , skin hair nail muscle production, etc.
    the thing is that even though protein foods are high in tryptophan it doesn't necessarily mean that levels of serotonin in the brain will be raised. dopamine and noradreanline compete with serotonin in the brain. the best way to actually raise serotonin levels is to actually have a meal that is purely froma crb source that contains only small to moderate amountys of protein; a good example here is bread. the effect of insulin after such a meal causes trpytophan to be swept from the blood stream and over the bllod-brain barrier. a high protein meal tends to favour the release of noradrenaline and dopamine. this is what i'm worried about really. alot of my meals are high protein due to the need to increase protein levels. am i consciencely blocking the release of serotinin? is there anyone who knows th fine science of something like this? it seems more complicted than i had originally perceived.

    alex.

     
    Old 09-19-2005, 11:53 AM   #4
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ratboy83
    the thing is that even though protein foods are high in tryptophan it doesn't necessarily mean that levels of serotonin in the brain will be raised. dopamine and noradreanline compete with serotonin in the brain. the best way to actually raise serotonin levels is to actually have a meal that is purely froma crb source that contains only small to moderate amountys of protein; a good example here is bread. the effect of insulin after such a meal causes trpytophan to be swept from the blood stream and over the bllod-brain barrier. a high protein meal tends to favour the release of noradrenaline and dopamine. this is what i'm worried about really. alot of my meals are high protein due to the need to increase protein levels. am i consciencely blocking the release of serotinin? is there anyone who knows th fine science of something like this? it seems more complicted than i had originally perceived.

    alex.
    Well, you have basically said what I did only in a different way....yes, carbs are important for serotonin release but you have to get the tryptophan first as well. It takes both. Carbs are protein sparing.

    If you are working out, yes, you need more but sometimes people overkill on that as well. Basically, from what I understand, protein can also be stored as fat if you consume too many calories of it and excess protein can harm the kidneys. I think the rule of thumb is 30% protein, 30% fats 40% carbs but they are always changing that so I'm not sure, but if you are active around 1 g. protein per pound of lean muscle weight is supposed to be ok except for those huge guys who need more because they have massive muscles to maintain.

    If you are aiming for big muscles, though, yeah you will have to eat even more protein but really I still think you'll need extra carbs then as well. Remember, even things like salad has carbs so it's not like you have to eat a bunch of cookies!

    Just try to balance it all, don't forget we need many, many elements combined for good health.

    Last edited by Jennita; 09-19-2005 at 11:59 AM.

     
    Old 09-19-2005, 11:58 PM   #5
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ratboy83
    in the past i've beaten my depression with areobic exercise. i'm doing that but only half the time and the other half i'm doing weights (last time i did so much cycling and my legs were HUGE but my upper body was quite small, so i want to make sure i'm proportionate this time!). anyway, nuff waffle, with doing my weights i've increased the amount of protein in my diet to help me bulk up (i think part of the reason last time i was slim upper body wise was my body didn't have enough protein so it used my upper body to feed the growth of my quads!). i've noticed my mood has been gradually improving but not at the same rate as when i just did aerobic stuff. i know that too much protein can favour the release of noradreanline and dopamine instead of serotonin so do you think that this type of exercise that requires a fair bit of protein is hindering my progress? after all, serotonin is so heavily indicated in depression. to hinder its releasae seems unwise to me, but at the same time i do want to bulk up still. alternatively, have people found that doing aerobic stuff is more effective at treating depression than weights? maybe thats the reason its not working as well- the reduction in aerobic exercise. or maybe its the combo of the two thats slowing my recovery. any verdicts???

    alex.

    Is your protein powder well-balanced ie does it have enough tryptophan COMPARED TO OTHER NEUTRAL AMINOACIDS ???

    I remember getting extremely depressed only 1-2 hours after taking high dose of any neutral aminoacids. Then taking tryptophan in high dose brought only partial recovery and I had to wait 7-10 days before feeling ok again.

    I also know that taking high dose of protein when having liver injury seriously increases the severity of depression. In this case protein causes a buildup of ammonia which is a powerful liver toxin.

    Liver injury causes depression by the following mechanism: the liver loses its ability to synthetize retinol-binding protein which leads to a buildup in free retinol in the blood. Free retinol strongly decreases brain membrane fluidity which inhibits the function of brain metabotropic receptors.

    This mechanism explains why antidepressants loses their efficiency (and cause depression) when used at high doses for prolonged periods of time or in liver-sensitive individuals.

    Synthetic steroids are also known as causing liver injury.

    A way to know if you have depression due to liver injury is to take a high dose of l-arginine for a few days and see if you feel better.

    If this is the case taking vitamin E succinate, l-arginine, l-lysine, l-glutamic acid along with phosphatidylcholine will help restore the urea cycle and allow liver recovery.

     
    Old 09-20-2005, 08:16 AM   #6
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rose_5-HT
    Is your protein powder well-balanced ie does it have enough tryptophan COMPARED TO OTHER NEUTRAL AMINOACIDS ???

    I remember getting extremely depressed only 1-2 hours after taking high dose of any neutral aminoacids. Then taking tryptophan in high dose brought only partial recovery and I had to wait 7-10 days before feeling ok again.
    its whey protein that contains free form amino acids and also polpeptide bound amino acids i think. to be honest i'm not sure if its balanced. i'm confused over whether its possible to get a balanced formula or not. since tryptophan was banned as a supplement its not added to formulas; the only amount you get is the amount naturally occurring in the protein. so i'm guessing maybe that the other amino acids are in proportionally higher amounts. i'm not completely sure though. you sound like you know your stuff. whats your background rose? do think thats its maybe better for me to just increaes my protein through food instead, which will ensure that is all balanced?

    alex.

     
    Old 09-22-2005, 12:00 AM   #7
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    What you wrote is true, tryptophan is banned and may not be added in such formula.

    What may be added however is other neutral aminoacids like BCAA (branched-chain aminoacids like l-leucine, l-isoleucine and l-valine). All 3 aminoacids are neutral and enough to make you depressed (if added in high amount and in free form). I know these 3 aminoacids to be very popular in bodybuilding. Perhaps it is indicated on the label if it is more than hydrolysed whey proteins.

    If unsure and if you want to check if your depression is due to an excess of free neutral aminoacids you may stay away from your protein supplement for 2-3 weeks and see if your mental state improves (but during this time you can increase your amount of protein thru food instead).

    Since you ask I'll tell you that my background is medecine 1.5 years and then biochemistry (with plenty of experiments on me in addition ).

     
    Old 10-10-2005, 08:27 AM   #8
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    i've found pure egg white powder as an alternative. seems its how nature intended it; none of the isolate nonsense going on. i'll think i'll give it a go instead. what do you reckon rose?

    alex.

     
    Old 10-10-2005, 01:57 PM   #9
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    I don't know about all this but your question brought another question to mind. If protein inhibits seritonin is that why I eat such a large proportion of my diet in carb form. Meaning, is my love for/ craving of carbs my body's way of trying to help me fight depression?

     
    Old 10-10-2005, 02:00 PM   #10
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    Re: does high protein consumption aggrevate depressive symptoms?

    also, just thought Id say to rose_5-HT that you have a cool backround educationally. I love science stuff. My older sister almost went pre-med and ended up in biochem instead. Yay for coincidences!

     
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