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    Old 01-04-2004, 11:16 AM   #46
    auntjudyg
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by firemansgirl
    Hey! Here's a thought...why not let people choose for themsleves what is good for them. If someone is loosing the low carb way, the low fat way, or what ever else works for the individuals. God bless em! Live and let live!
    Amen! And perhaps even offer a little support . . . since this is supposed to be a support board, no?

     
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    Old 01-04-2004, 11:49 AM   #47
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    Re: Atkins Lies

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    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    What I find interesting is how defensive Atkins followers get. --from donuts etc.



    Well, for whatever reason, other diets do not evoke the kind of attacks Atkins followers get. I've read this whole thread before responding, and we've been called lazy, unhealthy and worse. And why? What do you care? If you don't like the diet, don't adopt it! Just let us be.

    I have a background in research, so to see something like junkbondtrader's citations used as if they were primary sources or research cites, hurts. It's okay that everyone is not a scientist--god knows scientists go wrong often anyway--but the ...[insulting phrase deleted by me].. is suffocating.

    Junkbond's only true research cite--the framingham studies, our country's oldest and largest and longest-running public health study--is apparently entirely misunderstood (or intentionally mis-stated??)byhim or her. He or she would I guess be shocked by the actual results thereof. Here are two recent summary statements to help clarify how wrong he got that study:


    "Reports from the Lipid Research Clinics Research Prevalence Study and the Framingham Heart Study have shown that dietary cholesterol is not related to either blood cholesterol or heart disease deaths " (the Journal of the Amercan College of Nutrition 1997 Dec;16, (6):530-4)

    "[it] ...has even been observed in the Framingham prospective study, that saturated fats were associated with a protective effect on stroke. " (J Nutr HealthAging. 2001;5(3):)


    and so on. Shocking when you go back to what's really in the research, rather than what someone has told you you should think is there.

    Even some of the oldest canards in the pseudo science world, such as that high protein diets lead to either kidney disease or osteoporosis, are repeated in this thread as if unquestioned fact. For the record, there are now several studies, available on pubmed, that show protein intake is unrelated to kidney damage or disease unless you already HAVE kidney disease. And the studies (also generally findable through pubmed) are now solid that high protein diets lead to greater bone deposition than lower protein diets. This is especially true of diets high in dairy, but is true of all high protein diets. Protein meals lead to an immediate excretion of some calcium, so it was reasonable to hypothesize that high protein diets would thin one's bones, but this hypothesis has now been thoroughly tested and the oppposite turns out to be true. A few hours after the initial calcum loss, there is increased calcium and phosphorus deposition with protein diets, especially if followed over months and years. We forget that although we think of bones as mostly mineral ('cause of our childhood association with scary, dry, dead skeletons), living bone is in fact a heavily protinaceous tissue. It turns out that protein bulids strong bones--surprise!

    I am willing to believe that high-ish fiber diets are a healthy thing, although it is worth pointing out that the early findings of lower colon or other cancers have been, disappointingly, refuted by all the more recent work. The benefits of fiber on the heart seem to hold up, even if not as profound as we once thought. However, I never ate so many salads and fibrous veggies as I have since reading Atkins. Most of what my fellow Americans are eating in the non-Atkins foods category do not contribute at ALL to a fibrous diet. What fiber do you think people are getting from white bread, white pasta, french fries, ice cream and the other Atkins no-nos? C'mon! Atkins followers eat fewer carbs, but they tend to be whole grain, or fibrous low carb veggies, NOT french fries or similar virtually-zero-fiber foods.


    For what it's worth, and an example of one person may be of limited value, I've followed the Atkins plan, or now a modified version of it, for almost five years, have lost 40 pounds, have cholestrerol under 140 with very good hdl levels and low-ish blood pressure, and have just about defeated the terrible exhaustion and mood swings i was once subject to (insulin effects, it seems). Maybe five years os not forever, but it starts to qualify as "long term" No?

    Since I've been on it so long, i not only don't count calories much, I don't have to be very paranoid about carbs either--a maintenace level for me seems to be about 100 grams per day, so really I just don't eat the obvious bad guys, and that takes care of things most days.

    I do lift weights now, have for many months. I don't find I suffer from lack of carbs. On training days I eat a little more carbs than other days, and do it an hour or two before and immediately after lifting--each time with protein, of course--but I still keep carbs way below what I see others doing, and I've progressed well, so far. (A high carb post-training snack for me is like ten carb gams). I'm lifting almost double what I started at just over a year ago. The first few pounds of gain were just learning to do it at all, I guess, but the last many pounds reflect a true strength gain that I've noticed in my daily living as well. I also ride a bike and do cardio as well (in addition to the fact that since I live in Manhattan, I walk about four hours a week just getting places. And as far as "brisk" walking...well, have you ever seen Manhattanites walk?)


    I don't recognize donutsncofee's moniker, but I know some of the other names in this thread have seen good, solid, peer-reviewed evidence brought forward to clarify their misstatements or misunderstandings, so the fact that they are repeated again suggests to me that some folks write but do not read. Therefore, it could be advised to me, Arkie, and others that we might as well save our breath.

    Perhaps we should. But it would be nice if folks would stop saying we are "lazy" and "kidding ourselves" and the rest of it. I cite only the couple of insults that stuck in my mind--there are many more in this thread.



    sean

    Last edited by sean; 01-04-2004 at 01:11 PM.

     
    Old 01-04-2004, 12:52 PM   #48
    Chum
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by beebop_71
    ROTFL And low-fat isn't a fraud? Based on one lone flawed study?

    A well balanced low fat diet that includes ALL 4 food groups is the best. You cant sit around watching soaps all day eating snackwell cookies, and nonfat chips. Atkins is a high fat fraud, and when this fad fades away again like it did in the 70's we will be right back to common sense. Eat less, exercise more. I know that sounds painful to some of you.

     
    Old 01-04-2004, 01:24 PM   #49
    zebra1
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    junkbondtrader mentioned a few books with plently of research to back them up,one of them being,"Eat More,Weight Less," by Dr.Dean Ornish.His book is based on 3 research studies him and his colleagues had conducted over a 16 year period of time. Dr.Ornish conducted his research at the Preventative Medicine Research Institute,a non-profit,independant research institute associated with the University of California,San Francisco.The major hospitals collaberating with the study have been Presbyterbian Hospital of California Pacific Medical Center,Moffitt Hospital of the University of California,San Francisco,University of California ,Berkeley,and the University of Texas,Houston.Providing ongoing support for their research was,William.T.Armstrong M.D.(Chief of Cardiology at California Pacific Medical Center),Keith Marton M.D.(Chief of Medicine,CPMC)and Floyd C. Rector M.D.(Chief of Medicine,School of Medicine,University of California,San Francisco.Principle research collaborators included William T,Armstrong M.D.,Paul Baum,Ph.D.,James A. Billings,Ph.D.,M.P.H.,Richard J.Brand,Ph.D., .............................and the list goes on and on and on.So,where are the studies backing up Atkins research and claims?Sorry ,I truly cannot remember reading or hearing about studies done on the work Atkins has pioneered?If anyone can direct me to research ,specifically,on the Atkins diet...I would be grateful.(Oh yeah,make sure it is research done at a non-profit,INDEPENDANT,school or institute...)

    Last edited by zebra1; 01-04-2004 at 01:39 PM.

     
    Old 01-04-2004, 02:21 PM   #50
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zebra1
    junkbondtrader mentioned a few books with plently of research to back them up,one of them being,"Eat More,Weight Less," by Dr.Dean Ornish.His book is based on 3 research studies him and his colleagues had conducted over a 16 year period of time. Dr.Ornish conducted his research at the Preventative Medicine Research Institute,a non-profit,independant research institute associated with the University of California,San Francisco.The major hospitals collaberating with the study have been Presbyterbian Hospital of California Pacific Medical Center,Moffitt Hospital of the University of California,San Francisco,University of California ,Berkeley,and the University of Texas,Houston.Providing ongoing support for their research was,William.T.Armstrong M.D.(Chief of Cardiology at California Pacific Medical Center),Keith Marton M.D.(Chief of Medicine,CPMC)and Floyd C. Rector M.D.(Chief of Medicine,School of Medicine,University of California,San Francisco.Principle research collaborators included William T,Armstrong M.D.,Paul Baum,Ph.D.,James A. Billings,Ph.D.,M.P.H.,Richard J.Brand,Ph.D., .............................and the list goes on and on and on.So,where are the studies backing up Atkins research and claims?Sorry ,I truly cannot remember reading or hearing about studies done on the work Atkins has pioneered?If anyone can direct me to research ,specifically,on the Atkins diet...I would be grateful.(Oh yeah,make sure it is research done at a non-profit,INDEPENDANT,school or institute...)

    There may be some value in the Ornish approach for some people. His research, as it happens, is mostly by himself or his affiliated colleagues, and others' studies of low fat dieting are not nearly so encouraging. still, I'd agree that you can lower your cardiac risk through weight loss achieved his way. Somewhat.

    BUT, that ws not junkbondtrader's point. He was citing these books in support of criticisms of the low carb approach. Very different issue. These sources certainly do not consitute research citations in support of same.

    Just for the record, even though Ornish's approach can lead to reduction of some cardiac risk factors, there ARE studies of low-carb approaches and they show sharper, more sustainable cardio risk factor reduction with the low carb approach. These are available at pubmed or elsewhere.

    Thrid party, peer reviewed reserach is what's valuable. I don't cite Atkins's research in support of low carb, and don't very much value Ornish's cites for his own theories. Not worthless, just not very impressive.

    The one independent study junkbond trader cited, the very, very important and respected Framingham study, happens to provide a great deal of evidence directly contrary to his interpretation. So I cited some stuff about it to help him understand that. If you need me to look up more at medline or similar spots, just let me know. I'd rather people did their own reading, starting with some appreciation of what independent research is or is not, but if you are unwilling or unable to, I'll go look the stuff up again. Much of the material or the urls for the nih/pubmed cites has been posted here or on the weight loss board more than once in the last few months. But can be done again.

    Peace


    sean

    Last edited by sean; 01-04-2004 at 03:51 PM.

     
    Old 01-04-2004, 05:52 PM   #51
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zebra1
    To all who have ,"encouraged," everyone else to ,"Read The Book!!,", I suggest they read this entire thread to start with,just for starters, and then pick-up other books (that's right, books without the Atkins logo on it),like some of the ones suggested by Junkbondtrader(excellent choices) and begin there.It appears to me that alot of Atkins followers on this thread, seem to only care about the end result ,not how they arrived there.... and ya,I mean you too ,"I'm skinny now so nah,nah,na,na,nah." In case you weren't aware ,it's really NOT about being skinny but about being healthy.....Hey Junkbondtrader and Donutsncoffe ,who cares whether people want to eat madcow BSE,fed with other dead animals meat... products....they are obviously well informed on their own dietary needs,with the help of Dr.Atkins,of course.YAh ya,ya,to all you people that retort,"but you just HAVE to read the book,then you'll get it," ,I HAVE read the book and as interesting as it was.....I will continue with what I always do ....READ MORE BOOKS.NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Oh, my, no need to get so worked up.

    Some of us are smart enough to read more than one book and do our research and make an informed choice. (I love reading and will also continue to read other books on health and diets)As far as mad cow and other meat related issues: I get my beef, eggs and poultry from a family I know who raises only organic. No worries here, but thanks for the concern.

    BTW, I am not what would be considered 'skinny' and I am very healthy, according to my dr and cholesterol tests.

     
    Old 01-04-2004, 06:26 PM   #52
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chum
    A well balanced low fat diet that includes ALL 4 food groups is the best. You cant sit around watching soaps all day eating snackwell cookies, and nonfat chips. Atkins is a high fat fraud, and when this fad fades away again like it did in the 70's we will be right back to common sense. Eat less, exercise more. I know that sounds painful to some of you.
    Considering the studies that have come out of Harvard and other sources, I would hardly call it a fraud.

    I first started Protein Power in 97 and have no plans on changing, and I do get all the food groups in. And I would never put snackwells or chips in this body again

     
    Old 01-04-2004, 07:57 PM   #53
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Hey Beebop ,thank you for the links (still reading)and ya ,I was going off.Sean good points,thanks for your reply.Beebop,good to hear you are supporting organic farmers ,now if the rest of the planet could get on board.......

     
    Old 01-05-2004, 06:58 AM   #54
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zebra1
    To all who have ,"encouraged," everyone else to ,"Read The Book!!,", I suggest they read this entire thread to start with,just for starters, and then pick-up other books (that's right, books without the Atkins logo on it),like some of the ones suggested by Junkbondtrader(excellent choices) and begin there.It appears to me that alot of Atkins followers on this thread, seem to only care about the end result ,not how they arrived there.... and ya,I mean you too ,"I'm skinny now so nah,nah,na,na,nah." In case you weren't aware ,it's really NOT about being skinny but about being healthy.....Hey Junkbondtrader and Donutsncoffe ,who cares whether people want to eat madcow BSE,fed with other dead animals meat... products....they are obviously well informed on their own dietary needs,with the help of Dr.Atkins,of course.YAh ya,ya,to all you people that retort,"but you just HAVE to read the book,then you'll get it," ,I HAVE read the book and as interesting as it was.....I will continue with what I always do ....READ MORE BOOKS.NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Ummm.... I suggested reading the book because the majority of the anti-Atkins people posting seem to think it advocates eating meat and fat for the rest of your life. It doesn't. That's why I say, "read the book." Reading the book might not change your mind, but at least you'd know what the plan is really about instead of basing opinions on misinformation. You can read the book and still disagree with the concept, but at least you (or anyone else) wouldn't be basing your opinion on a bunch of fallacies. Yes, do read lots of books, and if a low carb lifestyle isn't what you want, then don't do it. So you don't eat meat products. Yippee for you. Just as Atkins is not for everybody, neither is vegetarianism. To each his own.

     
    Old 01-05-2004, 10:08 AM   #55
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    I feel great now that i've cut out all my starches and sugars. Not everything is for everyone. It's funny that I've doing this way of life (not a quick fix diet) for about 5 years now and people used to give me a hard time about it. Now these same people are starting to sit up and take attention. My mom's doctor was also amazed that she reversed her diabetes without medication doing this. I also feel that people should take more time to research before they condem something or jump on the bandwagon. There is a science to all this, and not every protein adequate, low carb diet is the same as Atkins. I follow my own and look and feel great.

     
    Old 01-05-2004, 05:38 PM   #56
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    how do your muscles decrease when you're on atkins and you're weight training/exercising?

    oh, and do I really NEED to go see a doctor before and after atkins? Could this kill me or have very bad consequences like making me a brain dead vegetable?

    btw- is this safe for 17 year olds? My brother is thinking about it also.

    Quote:
    To all who have ,"encouraged," everyone else to ,"Read The Book!!,", I suggest they read this entire thread to start with,just for starters, and then pick-up other books (that's right, books without the Atkins logo on it),like some of the ones suggested by Junkbondtrader(excellent choices) and begin there.It appears to me that alot of Atkins followers on this thread, seem to only care about the end result ,not how they arrived there.... and ya,I mean you too ,"I'm skinny now so nah,nah,na,na,nah." In case you weren't aware ,it's really NOT about being skinny but about being healthy.....Hey Junkbondtrader and Donutsncoffe ,who cares whether people want to eat madcow BSE,fed with other dead animals meat... products....they are obviously well informed on their own dietary needs,with the help of Dr.Atkins,of course.YAh ya,ya,to all you people that retort,"but you just HAVE to read the book,then you'll get it," ,I HAVE read the book and as interesting as it was.....I will continue with what I always do ....READ MORE BOOKS.NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    I have read this entire thread....but I'm really skeptical about reading anything suggested by a vegan.
    oh and about the mad cow crap...the cow that was found here in the US with mad cow was from Cananada and was going to be used for dog food...you know, that same day I went out and had myself a HUGE juicy steak mmmmmm

    really, I get the feeling that this whole debate is about stoping people from eating meat because you find it offensive


    sean, your posts really helped me, thanks...on atkins, can you lose 40lbs faster than 5 years? Is it possible to lose that in a year or a little over that?

    Last edited by Korn; 01-05-2004 at 07:51 PM.

     
    Old 01-05-2004, 09:25 PM   #57
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Hey Korn,

    You are of course right: if your are on a high protein diet while exercising, you will NOT lose muscle tissue., but rather lyou will lose fat. There is good evidence for this--not just my puny self, but studies generally show that high protein diets such as protein power or atkins are much more sparing of non-fat tissue generally, and do allow for muscle gain if combined with a well designed exercise program.

    Sorry for the confusion on my weight loss. I lost all but about five pounds of the forty in the first year plus. I maintained or cut a little lower over the subsequent years.

    I owuld have lost more sooner, but I never really kicked the snacking on nuts habit. This is a healthy snack, and higher in good fats and protein than many, but nuts DO have carbs, and I tended to spoil myself. I also love fruit and bread, so as I added carbs back to achieve a maintenance program, I slipped more than once and had to re-adjust, re-lose, etc. It's not a quick fix, it really takes applied effort to change your life.

    I would have liked to drop five more pounds ( beyond the forty), and did for several months. but I was already at the right health range and my wife thought I looked terrible so thin, so I let the weight come back to just about minus forty.

    Now that I'm lifting weights i WANT to gain, but only "good" gain, not fat gain, so I've been going through some major readjustment, I assure youl Mostly a psychological one--How do I know putting on a pound this month is a pound of muscle,or half muscle, or all fat, or what? It has taken me months to sort it our, mostly by watching my body closely, and owning a couple of pairs of unforgiving jeans that I bought at my thinnest--these keep me honest

    Life is SO complex..

    I know of no reason why a 17 year old cannot benefit from reducing crummy, empty calorie carb foods like french fries and soda and dessert or white grains. BUT, I wouldn't rush an adolescent into ANY weight loss programs unless there was awfully good reason for it. He's still growing--I feel he'd benefit most from a good exercise program and healthy balanced diet. Let the body then develop as it will.

    Hope this helps.


    sean

     
    Old 01-06-2004, 06:51 AM   #58
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    semi off-topic:

    dog food is made from the scrap parts of the same cows we eat. they're collected at the slaughterhouse, labeled 'unfit for human consumption' and taken away, but they come from the same animals.

    euthenized pets are also used in commercial dogfood.

    (then again, you probably shouldn't believe me, because i'm vegan afterall. )
    look it up for yourself , it's the truth.

     
    Old 01-06-2004, 03:33 PM   #59
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    well, since we're off topic a bit here...

    why would I care if they use crappy cows/cow parts for dog food, I don't eat it?
    The parts we're eating are the fine cuts, except hamburger...but that's still good.
    I'd rather die from scurvy than ever to eat tofu and wuss powder...
    What the heck do I care if my dog eats cow brain? (if that's in dog food, which it probably is). Oh well, if it gets mad cow...its just a dog, I'll get over it.
    euthenized pets are used for dog food huh...well, I guess I'm going to have to make sure I don't bury my dog when it dies from mad cow, THANKS FOR THE INFO!!!

    oh, don't we throw away most of the plant that we're eating? I don't eat the bottom of the lettuce head...or the roots of any of the plants...I don't eat the crap that's attached to grapes, I don't eat the apple core, etc etc....I wouldn't want to CHOKE and die on it you know

    anyway, thanks for the info...I'm going to go out and eat a recently neutralized chicken now.

    --------------
    atkins does work for people with big guts right? Would it be unsafe for me to stay on induction longer than 2 weeks? Is it possible to lose like 30+ lbs in 1 year on Atkins (I do 1 hour of an air strider thing and 45 min of weight lifting everyday)
    do I have to buy his books or is the entire diet and all that stuff right there on his website?

    Last edited by Korn; 01-06-2004 at 05:49 PM.

     
    Old 01-06-2004, 06:53 PM   #60
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    On Atkins, the gut is the first thing to go.

    No, you do not stay on induction past 2 weeks, you can screw up your metabolism.
    Personally, I think the food and stuff from the website are not a good thing. You are better off eating whole foods, and the bars, etc stall people. Just eat your protein, veggies, salads, nuts, berries, etc.

    Oh, and 30 lbs is very realistic in a year's time. My hubby lost that in 5 mos

    Last edited by beebop_71; 01-06-2004 at 06:54 PM.

     
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