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    Old 01-06-2004, 08:46 PM   #61
    Korn
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    does the book outline anything the website doesn't because I just printed off all that info...I'm going to read it at work tomorrow (ITS SLOOOOOOW)

     
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    Old 01-06-2004, 09:21 PM   #62
    zebra1
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Actually Korn,what JBT said was ,"Dog food is made from the scrap parts of the same cows we eat..they're collected at the slaughterhouse,labeled 'unfit for human consumption' and taken away,but they come from the same animals." The key part of that sentence was,"same cows we eat," And no, I am a not a vegan ,but eat organic ,not fed with dead animals, meat.

     
    Old 01-07-2004, 05:44 PM   #63
    Korn
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    but the thing is...we don't eat those parts...just like we don't eat an apple core because we'd choke and DIE, uhhhh but it comes from the same plant! I guess that means we should stop eating apples.
    Isn't it illegal to feed cows..cows? Oh well, that steak I had last night still tastes better than a peach pit.

    Last edited by Korn; 01-07-2004 at 05:46 PM.

     
    Old 01-07-2004, 08:18 PM   #64
    DoOoOoM
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Sorry, I edited my post wrong

    Last edited by Dr_DoOoOoM; 01-07-2004 at 08:22 PM.

     
    Old 01-07-2004, 08:20 PM   #65
    DoOoOoM
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    [QUOTE=sean]Hey Korn,

    You are of course right: if your are on a high protein diet while exercising, you will NOT lose muscle tissue., but rather lyou will lose fat. There is good evidence for this--not just my puny self, but studies generally show that high protein diets such as protein power or atkins are much more sparing of non-fat tissue generally, and do allow for muscle gain if combined with a well designed exercise program.



    DO NOT GO ON THE ATKINS DIET IF YOU'RE WEIGHT TRAINING!!!! Ask any professional bodybuilder, whom I think know more about diets than anyone.

    Last edited by Dr_DoOoOoM; 01-07-2004 at 08:21 PM.

     
    Old 01-07-2004, 08:49 PM   #66
    Korn
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    why's that?
    wouldn't eating a lot of protein be good for building muscle?

     
    Old 01-07-2004, 09:31 PM   #67
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    cows aren't fed to cows anymore, but they are ground up and mixed with feed for chickens, pigs and other livestock animals people eat.

     
    Old 01-07-2004, 10:42 PM   #68
    DoOoOoM
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    YEAH PROTEIN IS THE NUMBER INGREDIENT TO BODYBUILDING BUT YOU ALSO NEED PLENTY OF *****CARBS***** TO WEIGHT TRAIN!!!! THAT IS WHERE MOST OF THE ENERGY COMES FROM !!!! That's nothing new either...the Atkins diet would be a bodybuilders worse nightmare.

     
    Old 01-08-2004, 06:53 AM   #69
    sean
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dr_DoOoOoM
    YEAH PROTEIN IS THE NUMBER INGREDIENT TO BODYBUILDING BUT YOU ALSO NEED PLENTY OF *****CARBS***** TO WEIGHT TRAIN!!!! THAT IS WHERE MOST OF THE ENERGY COMES FROM :blob_fire !!!! That's nothing new either...the Atkins diet would be a bodybuilders worse nightmare.:eek:

    Well, yes, but no. The commonly held notions about Atkins confuse the diet as a whole with the two week, super-low carb, Induction Phase. This is understandable, since lots of notice is aroused by the people having virtually no carbs at all, when we ask them what's the deal, they say they're on atkins. So,many of the public think these two things--eating almost no carbs and Atkins--are the same thing. But they're not.

    And, I agree that heavy or intense. weight lifting during this very short (two weeek), very low carb period would be a challenge. Perhaps unwise, although there is absolutely no evidence of that. Maybe keep the weights a bit lighter for those two weeks.

    However, as so many seem to misunderstand, you start adding carbs back into Atkins on the 15th day, and if you want to schedule those for soon before and immediately after lifting, so be it. Or, if you are into endurance exercise like running, you can schedule some of your carbs for during as well as just after your runs. It doesn't take much--the studies of carb glycogen recovery suggest that as few as eight or ten carb grams can make a real difference. As the weeks and months on Atkins go by and your carb numbers get up above 50 or more grams per day, you will have no trouble doing this.

    Further, and perhaps most fundamentally, the muscles and the body generally do indeed adapt to a ketone-based energy system, and we may have been over- emphasizing the need for carbs all these years. Exercise performance on ketogenic diets is essentially unchanged from performance on a carb-loaded diet. Odd, hard to believe, but that's what the studies find when scientists go looking. See, for example, [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_u ids=8807563&dopt=Abstract[/url]

    There is some contrary evidence for very high intensity, anaerobic exercise like weight lifting. In particular, cortisol may be better controlled, and weight lifting peak power better achieved, with some carbs in the diet, especially a couple of hours before and then just after the resistance exercise itself. So the picture is generally positive, but not cut and dried. That's why for this type of exercise, scheduling the carbs right around around the workouts is my recomendation. If you are serious about adding muscle, this will be only one of several adjustments to your life you will find yourself making.

    I lift and keep to a low carb (NOT zero carb) regimen--again, scheduling my exercise and carb intakes to coincide, but keeping overall carbs between 50 and 100 grams per day. Maybe the strength and mass gains I'm getting are not as huge as a competitive body builder would want, but they've been great for me.

    For what it's worth, the research on resistance exercise and dieting says that whatever diet you follow, lifting weights keeps the muscle mass up while allowing loss of fat mass. The studies I've read say this effect is stronger for low carb, high protein diets than for low protein diets. And you definitely can add strength and muscle mass while losing fat--it's just harder to pull off, and takes more focused effort and certainly more patience than a program targeting only one of these goals. Not easy, but possible.

    Hope this information is helpful.


    sean

    Last edited by sean; 01-08-2004 at 07:22 AM.

     
    Old 01-08-2004, 08:50 PM   #70
    DoOoOoM
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    For what it's worth, the research on resistance exercise and dieting says that whatever diet you follow, lifting weights keeps the muscle mass up while allowing loss of fat mass. The studies I've read say this effect is stronger for low carb, high protein diets than for low protein diets. And you definitely can add strength and muscle mass while losing fat--it's just harder to pull off, and takes more focused effort and certainly more patience than a program targeting only one of these goals. Not easy, but possible.

    On this you'd be wrong. You can't have just a "whatever" diet to weight train. You need to eat plenty of calories, I'm talking almost double the normal daily amount. Some people triple, even quadruple the daily amount. If you don't consume enough calories then you are just wasting your time in the gym. You may get somewhat defined but I guarentee you won't get any bigger. It makes me laugh to know that people think a "low carb, high protein" diet is effective for weight training and aerobic-cardio exercise. A low protein diet is just ludicrous. Yes, too many carbs can make you feel sluggish so I'd suggest you emphasize your diet with protein foremost, but that doesn't mean you drop your crab intake. In fact you do the opposite, but just don't over do it. So, to anyone interested in weight training I recommend you talk to a professional physical trainer who will guide and help you with your specific needs for both weight training and dieting. I can tell you now he/she won't tell you to get on the Atkins diet lol.


    I thought some of you may enjoy this...this is one of the most insane diets I've ever heard anyone be on. A professional bodybuilder by the name of Johnny Fuller made up this diet and let me tell you, it's frickin' insane!

    The first three day's of the diet consisted of protein, and protein only. Not even a side of mixed vegetables or potatoes! He would consume a minimum 1000 grams of protein a day on these 3 days!

    Monday - Red meat; beef, lamb, and horse(yeah I know just the thought grosses me out).

    Tuesday - Protein from fowl soureces like chicken, turkey and eggs.

    Wednesday - Dairy protein sources like cottage cheese, milk and milk protein powder(yuck).

    On Thursday and Friday would consume 4,000 calories from carbohydrate sources only. He would eat things like potatoes, rice, veggies, pasta, beans and fruit. He would get his protein from these foods as well. He would also supplement any protein he couldn't fullfill with just these foods. His high carb approach probably allowed his muscles to just fill up with glycogen which lacked the first three days.

    Ok, Saturday was probably the day Johnny was hoping to get to by the end of the week. On this day he would eat anything and everything in site. He would come close to eating 15,000 calories from whatever he could get his paws on. This meant pizza, cheeseburgers, fries, ice cream, donuts, whatever was on hand.

    Sunday was fasting. Johnny would barely eat a thing. He'd wait until Monday came around tp repeat the cycle.

    I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS DIET TO ANYONE IN THE WHOLE WIDE WORLD!! DO NOT TRY IT!!

    Didn't I tell you this guy was nuts and you don't even want me to get into his weight training routines, they're even crazier.

     
    Old 01-09-2004, 08:17 AM   #71
    sean
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    Re: Atkins Lies

    [QUOTE=Dr_DoOoOoM]For what it's worth, the research on resistance exercise and dieting says that whatever diet you follow, lifting weights keeps the muscle mass up while allowing loss of fat mass. The studies I've read say this effect is stronger for low carb, high protein diets than for low protein diets. And you definitely can add strength and muscle mass while losing fat--it's just harder to pull off, and takes more focused effort and certainly more patience than a program targeting only one of these goals. Not easy, but possible.

    On this you'd be wrong. You can't have just a "whatever" diet to weight train. You need to eat plenty of calories, I'm talking almost double the normal daily amount. Some people triple, even quadruple the daily amount. If you don't consume enough calories then you are just wasting your time in the gym. You may get somewhat defined but I guarentee you won't get any bigger.



    Well Dr. Doom, it IS harder to get bigger following a lowish-carb diet, but many of us have done it. I'm not talking competitive body builders, who do strange things indeed with their diets and habits, just regular people doing a bit to get in better shape.

    Still, I did not say you could follow "whatver" diet and build muscle. Read it again. I said, and the research is overwhelming on this, that "whatever diet you follow, IF you are also doing resistance training (like weight lifting), it will help keep muscle mass up. This is not the same as saying whatever diet will INCREASE muscle mass, it is just saying that if you are dieting, whatever diet you are on, adding weight traiing will help protect muscle mass, shifting weieght loss preferentially to fat mass.
    This is so. It is subject to test and has been tested in a few careful studies now.

    I also claim you can add muscle while losing fat, with a low carb diet. You dispute this as you may, but that is a second, separate point. I have no research studies to adduce on this one, only my experience and that of some others on this and related boards.

    I do support your idea that if one's only goal is to add mass, calories help greatly--they are critical, maybe as critical as added protein. Its just that for those of us who are trying the difficult double of added muscle and lost fat mass, we are trying to do something more complicated. It doesn't easily lend itself to simple formulas like those you've articulated. But no need to argue.

    sean

     
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