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    Old 04-10-2004, 11:41 PM   #151
    arkie6
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by miper
    The only problem I have ever had with Atkins is all of the fat. I do not see how it can possibly be good for you.
    What is wrong with fat? Most of my relatives lived well into their 90's and they used lard almost exclusively for cooking. No pot of beans or turnip greens was complete with out a chunk of pork fatback to give it some flavor. Home grown eggs and pork side meat was a staple for breakfast. Smoked and salted pork, beef, wild game including fish, full fat milk, cream and cheese from the milk cow, along with home grown vegetables and corn meal formed the staple of their diets.

    Fat, in my opinion, has gotten an undeserved bad rap over the past 20 or 30 years. At least natural forms of fat. Most don't realize that lard contains more monounsaturated fat (oleic acid - the same fat found predominately in olive oil) than saturated fat. And most forms of saturated fat aren't really harmful - take stearic acid and lauric acid for instance. Now that partially hydrogenated vegetable oil found in most processed foods probably deserves all of the bad press it gets from all that I have read on the subject of trans fatty acids. And most forms of commercial vegetable oils aren't much better due to their high temperature processing methods, deoderization, and high Omega 6 fatty acid content.

    Another thing fat has going for it is that it doesn't stimulate the release of insulin, the fat storing hormone. And it promotes a feeling of fullness so you often eat less food overall.

    Quote:
    It is a COMMON sense issue here.
    The problem is that most of what is considered common sense today regarding diet would have been considered foolishness 50 years ago. My mamma knew that if you wanted to keep from getting fat, you had to limit the sugar (candy, cookies, etc.), starches (bread and potatoes) and fruit. That "common sense" high-carbohydrate, low-fat dietary advice that has been promoted that last 20 or so years has led to a nation with over 60% of its people being overweight and diabetes rising at epidemic proportions.

    Quote:
    If people would just get most of their calories from fruits, whole grains, lean meats, and vegetables, they would see a drastic change in themselves and they would be able to keep it off without even really thinking about it.
    I don't see a problem with that from a weight maintenance perspective if you are active, but to lose excess fat, many often have to go just a little bit farther. Those whole grains aren't all they are cracked up to be. Next time you are in the grocery store, compare a bag of all-purpose white flour and a bag of stone ground whole wheat flour. Both have approximately 25 grams of carbohydrate per serving (1/4 cup) with the white flour having ~0 grams of fiber while the whole meal flour may have 2 or at most 3 grams of fiber - not really that much difference. Both will cause a significant rise in bloodsugar with a corresponding rise in insulin levels which makes fat gain more likely and fat loss much less likely. Most vegetables are fine since they generally have relatively low amounts of digestible carbohydrate and moderate to high amounts of fiber and lots of vitamins and minerals. Most low carb diets recommend copious amounts of non-starchy vegetables in fact. And fruits aren't necessarily the icons of health either. The problem is that fructose (fruit sugar) promotes insulin resistance, which is the last thing that someone trying to lose weight or deal with Type II diabetes needs. Some fruits are acceptable in limited quantities on a low carb diet, like strawberries, blackberries, blueberries, etc. which have relatively low amounts of sugar and are loaded with beneficial vitamins, minerals, and anti-oxidants.
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    Old 04-11-2004, 07:50 AM   #152
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    I did the Atkins for two weeks and lost 7 pounds. They say if you experience fatigue that it will past after day 4 to day 7. Mine just kept getting worse and worse. By the last day I was laying on the sofa so tired I couldn't do anything. Hubby ask me if I wanted to go out for dinner and I said yes!
    I had a greek salad with croutons and garlic bread, steak, a gigantic baked potato. Then the next morning I had toast with my breakfast and orange juice. I felt better already after those two meals. Atkins may be alright for some but for me it was not working with my body. I know someone who has been on it for a year. He lost 25 pounds and of course has more carbs than he used to but he really watches it. Other than that he doesn't count calories, pigs out on other stuff and has kept the pounds off. Another woman I know says she does count carbs, she does 30 per meal and 15 twice a day for snacks. That is only 120 carbs per day, she lost 40 pounds and kept it off, looks great. That is more in line with what I sould try I guess. 20-30 carbs per day didn't get it for me.

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 04:46 PM   #153
    knarfin
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Quote:
    If people would just get most of their calories from fruits, whole grains, lean meats, and vegetables, they would see a drastic change in themselves and they would be able to keep it off without even really thinking about it.
    That is definitely a much healthier way to live than many people do. But sufficient carbphydrates are a neccessity. A low carb intake is NOT part of a healthy lifestyle.

    The preferred metabolic path travels from glycolysis to the Krebs cycle to the electron transport chain. When the body doesn't get enough glucose (from carbs), glycolysis can't occur. Now, since glycolysis produces pyruvate, which is needed at the beginning of the Krebs cycle, when glycolysis doesn't have enough fuel, neither does the Krebs cycle. No Krebs cycle, no electron transport chain. The result: less ATP (~energy) is created. Your body is forced to find other ways to feed itself, so the liver creates glucose from stored tissue. It eats fat cells (good, right?), but your brain needs amino acids that the fat can't provide. The carbs had the amino acids, but now they're gone. So your body eats muscle and lean tissue to feed the nervous system. A fine mess you're in now; you're body's eating itself to survive because it's undernourished. The ketones produced suppress your appetite and your metabolism is slowed because your body thinks you're starving. Your body thinks you're starving! It's doing it's best to stay alive until proper nutrients are available again. Meaning more carbs.

    Gluconeogenesis/ketogenesis also occurs when fasting, actually starving, or skipping breakfast. This is why it doesn't usually feel like such a big deal to skip breakfast, and this is why eating breakfast every day is so important. Phrases like 'You'll be less hungry' and 'Fat-burning metabolism' make me cringe, because they're portrayed as positive aspects of the diet.

    Low carb diets may be necessary in certain situations, as when treating obesity, but to claim that the 'Atkins lifestyle' is a healthy way of living is absurd.

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 05:13 PM   #154
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by knarfin
    That is definitely a much healthier way to live than many people do. But sufficient carbphydrates are a neccessity. A low carb intake is NOT part of a healthy lifestyle.

    The preferred metabolic path travels from glycolysis to the Krebs cycle to the electron transport chain. When the body doesn't get enough glucose (from carbs), glycolysis can't occur. Now, since glycolysis produces pyruvate, which is needed at the beginning of the Krebs cycle, when glycolysis doesn't have enough fuel, neither does the Krebs cycle. No Krebs cycle, no electron transport chain. The result: less ATP (~energy) is created. Your body is forced to find other ways to feed itself, so the liver creates glucose from stored tissue. It eats fat cells (good, right?), but your brain needs amino acids that the fat can't provide. The carbs had the amino acids, but now they're gone. So your body eats muscle and lean tissue to feed the nervous system. A fine mess you're in now; you're body's eating itself to survive because it's undernourished. The ketones produced suppress your appetite and your metabolism is slowed because your body thinks you're starving. Your body thinks you're starving! It's doing it's best to stay alive until proper nutrients are available again. Meaning more carbs.

    Gluconeogenesis/ketogenesis also occurs when fasting, actually starving, or skipping breakfast. This is why it doesn't usually feel like such a big deal to skip breakfast, and this is why eating breakfast every day is so important. Phrases like 'You'll be less hungry' and 'Fat-burning metabolism' make me cringe, because they're portrayed as positive aspects of the diet.

    Low carb diets may be necessary in certain situations, as when treating obesity, but to claim that the 'Atkins lifestyle' is a healthy way of living is absurd.

    So many mistakes here, don't know where to start. Enough to point out just the most fundamental and silly: carbs have NO amino acids. Repeat, NONE. Amino acids are the defining components of PROTEIN. They are what make it protein and not carbs or something else. Misunderstanding this most basic point throws the entire analysis off.

    For instance, the body will not digest proteinaceous tissue to get free amino acids (at least not any more than it is usually doing by normal protein turnover) unless the serum levels of aminos are low. In other words, when your diet is low-protein, or low protein AND low carb. not when it is low carb but rich in protein, keeping the plasma amino levels nice and high.

    That's why its so important to keep your intake of high quality, complete proteins up and frequent when on a low carb diet. Or when weight lifting, or whenever the body might be searching for free amino acids.

    For another, separate but also basic error, the nervous system does fine on an energy supply which is heavilly ketones or even nothing but ketones. For some individuals there is a period of adjustment, but we know the CNS can go for years on ketogenic diets, as this diet has been prescribed for decades to treat epileptic children. Whether or not they are good models for weight loss, we have their example for the brain surviving brilliantly (and in fact doing better, since this diet suppresses seizures) on virtually no glucose at all for years and years.
    This treatment was developed and is administered by Johns Hopkins and is at this point the longest running and best documented record of long-term (in this case, virtually perpetual) ketogenesis.

    Many other examples exist, such as months-long meat diets in many hunter cultures-no brain damage results, even after generations of this pattern. Etc.

    And so on. The anti-low carb folk repeat these errors endlessly, certain they must be right, since they've read them over and over, in other people's posts that repeat the same drivel. It keeps the closed circle of self-reinforcing error going but it does not advance the discussion.


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    Old 04-21-2004, 05:56 AM   #155
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by knarfin
    Low carb diets may be necessary in certain situations, as when treating obesity, but to claim that the 'Atkins lifestyle' is a healthy way of living is absurd.
    Could you be specific about what you think is unhealthy about the Atkins maintenance plan?

    Also, your post seems to imply that all low carb plans are ketogenic. Was that deliberate?

     
    Old 04-21-2004, 06:42 AM   #156
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Is a lifetime of a VERY high fat diet dangerous for your heart?

    Absent any demographic studies, you'll just have to guess. If you believe the book/books, you'll live forever (as long as you stay off the ice.)

    With current available research, the best you can determine is that if you clutch your chest and fall over dead, you guessed WRONG!

    You'd think that with the JILLIONS that Atkins Corp has made over the years some decent studies would have been done, unless they were pretty sure of the results!

    (No, the teeny studies that are often quoted are ALL junk science and have no bearing on long term health.)

     
    Old 04-21-2004, 09:52 AM   #157
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zip2play
    You'd think that with the JILLIONS that Atkins Corp has made over the years some decent studies would have been done, unless they were pretty sure of the results!

    (No, the teeny studies that are often quoted are ALL junk science and have no bearing on long term health.)
    zip, You have disclosed reasons that would lead one to have some understanding for why you endlessly bash Atkins, but aren't you interested in a little fairness and accuracy here?

    Atkins spoke about studies often. (Well, any time I saw him speak they were discussed, which admittedly wasn't THAT often.) He said he was waiting for someone to take up the cause and do studies, but nobody did. He said if he used his money to do them, everyone would condemn them as fixed. And what happened? The first positive low-carb study that was done, the anti-low-carb sites were all condemning it because Atkins had been APPROACHED to fund it. He refused and they got funding elsewhere.

    Junk science? Explain please. No, there have not been long-term studies, but that does not make the short-term ones junk science.

    You see conspiracies everywhere on one side of this issue; it is curious you are completely blind to the faults on the other side.

     
    Old 04-23-2004, 04:09 AM   #158
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Almost by definition, short term studies that result in the conclusion of long term cardiac safety are "junk science."

    No conspiracy theory is needed to come to the conclusion that the only current way we can come to the conclusion that Atkins is safe is to BELIEVE. Whether, he, his empire, or anyone else was responsible for the absence of long term safety studies, ABSENT THEY ARE....after 30 years.

    So, the way we must judge is, as I said, eat a very high fat diet for 30 years and if you grasp your heart and drop dead, you guessed wrong.

    Last edited by zip2play; 04-23-2004 at 04:16 AM.

     
    Old 04-23-2004, 04:14 PM   #159
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Studies, studies, studies. I'm getting sick and tired of people constantly griping about and placing so much emphasis on controlled studies. What difference does it make? If someone chooses to go on the Atkins Diet, and he or she experiences healthful benefits, and feels much better as a result, what does it matter? On the other hand, if the diet proves to be a disaster, then a thousand glowing studies to the contrary wouldn't matter either, will it? The point is, you cannot stereotype people, and issue some kind of blanket dietary directive which is applicable to everyone. As Atkins himself pointed out, there haven't been any really long term studies on ANY particular diet. Of course, the native Greenlanders have been eating a diet virtually devoid of carbohydrates for hundreds, if not thousands of years, and they suffer much lower rates of cancer and heart disease, and the incidence of diabetes among these people is rare. But of course, this does not qualify as a scientific study. Maybe that's good. Instead, it is a very real life scenario which has been going on for hundreds of years. So, it's for you to decide what to believe and what not to believe. But in the end, it's all the same. We are all mortals. Like it or not, we are all going to get sick and die from something.

     
    Old 04-24-2004, 08:43 AM   #160
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    One of the more entertaining aspects of this discussion is blaming government guidelines for the current health issues facing the nation. Nobody follows the food pyramid. For that matter, most people don't even understand it. People eat far more fat (especially saturated) and protein than recommended and, thus, less carbs. I'm not so concerned about the excess protein intake, although the sources of it (mostly pig and cow) need an overhaul, the lack of which is what's causing the excess fat intake.

    Worse yet, from a weight point of view, is the increasing amount of calories and portion sizes. People will go to a fast food place and eat 2000 calories in one meal and not think anything of it, perhaps because they don't know, but also because they don't care.

     
    Old 04-28-2004, 02:59 PM   #161
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    I was on the Atkins diet now i have no idea about what lack of carbs will do but i know that u get extremely hungry . There was many times when i started bitting my nails and it's not a habit of mine when i was on it i lost 7 lbs. soon enough when i got off the diet i gained it all back in about a week your best bet in my opinion is stay away from expensive purchases like slimfast and atkins and stick to exercise

     
    Old 04-28-2004, 04:26 PM   #162
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    Atkins is not expensive at all there is nothing you have to buy unless u dont eat meat cheese and vegtables. Its hard to go hungry eating 5-6 meals a day portion along with some vegtables and even eating the icecream as a snack if you gained the weight back chances are you went back to your old eating ways since you said you were always hungry. Did you even have the book? Or did u do this word of mouth which is the biggest mistake people do is hear from someone how to do the diet instead of reading it and researching yourself. It is not away of life for everyone but reading what you are getting into is always helpful when starting a diet and exercise is always good as well. so if u were eating a peice of meat twice of day and a salad yes u would be bitting your nails.

     
    Old 04-28-2004, 08:37 PM   #163
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    Re: is the atkins diet safe

    I was on the fence about the safety of the Atkins diet and was following it loosely after around noon each day until my sister, who's been following it almost to the T, began reporting to me heart problems(both of us are in our forties with typically healthy hearts). I asked her how often she drinks milk and she said very infrequently. I told her this is probably the reason because I was having the same angina-like problems when I was cutting way back on milk. The other problem is a lack of fiber in the diet which is so necessary to flush away the cholesteral. Any diet that tells you to only consume 20 carbs a day will without a doubt make people fiber deficient. I do, however believe that Americans do need to cut back on high glucose carbs, especially in the evening.

     
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