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    Old 01-23-2004, 08:08 AM   #16
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    LOL.

    nenofury, your posts just get funnier and more nonsensical as you go along. 6,000 calories a day? good one, thanks for the chuckle, it's been a busy few days and i needed a laugh. where on god's green earth are you coming up with this crap?

    No one ever mentioned anything about a carb only diet. There are plenty of quality plant fats and proteins in vegetarian foods, and anyone shooting for a carb only diet would be a)insane, and b)destined to fail. Vegetarian does NOT equal carb only. Not even close. Get a clue!

    I haven't noticed vegans to be flabby, as they tend to be leaner than most. But don't take it from me, see what the American Dietetic Association has to say about the health impacts of a vegetarian diet (hint: see where it says 'lower body mass index', then crack a dictionary and learn what that means, willya?):

    "Vegetarian diets low in fat or saturated fat have been used successfully as part of comprehensive health programs to reverse severe coronary artery disease (3,4). Vegetarian diets offer disease protection benefits because of their lower saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein content and often higher concentration of folate (which reduces serum homocysteine levels) (5), antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, carotenoids, and phytochemicals (6). Not only is mortality from coronary artery disease lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (7), but vegetarian diets have also been successful in arresting coronary artery disease (8,9). Total serum cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels are usually lower in vegetarians, but high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride levels vary depending on the type of vegetarian diet followed (10).

    Vegetarians tend to have a lower incidence of hypertension than nonvegetarians (11). This effect appears to be independent of both body weight and sodium intake. Type 2 diabetes mellitus is much less likely to be a cause of death in vegetarians than nonvegetarians, perhaps because of their higher intake of complex carbohydrates and lower body mass index (12).

    Incidence of lung and colorectal cancer is lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (2,13). Reduced colorectal cancer risk is associated with increased consumption of fiber, vegetables, and fruit (14,15). The environment of the colon differs notably in vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians in ways that could favorably affect colon cancer risk (16,17). Lower breast cancer rates have not been observed in Western vegetarians, but cross-cultural data indicate that breast cancer rates are lower in populations that consume plant-based diets (18). The lower estrogen levels in vegetarian women may be protective (19).

    A well-planned vegetarian diet may be useful in the prevention and treatment of renal disease. Studies using human being and animal models suggest that some plant proteins may increase survival rates and decrease proteinuria, glomerular filtration rate, renal blood flow, and histologic renal damage compared with a nonvegetarian diet (20,21)".

    ----

    "Crackpot hippies?" Do your background checks and you will find that to not be the case at all. The people I mentioned are well educated, medically certified healthcare practitioners with decades of experience under their belts. Again, why are you making stuff up? Could it be that you can't factually support the position that you have an emotional stake in believing?

    And finally, some "weak" vegetarians, you know, to bolster your argument:

    Hank Aaron (home run champion in major league baseball)
    B J Armstrong (US Basketball star)
    Carl Lewis (vegan 9 time olympic gold medalist in track & field)
    Al Beckles (body builder)
    Sorya Bonali (ice skater)
    Les Brown (veteran runner)
    Peter Burwash (tennis)
    Andreas Cahling (body builder)
    Andreas Cahling (bodybuilder)
    Chris Campbell (1980 world champion wrestler)
    Joanna Conway (ice skater)
    Sylvia Cranston (triathlete)
    Sally Eastall (vegan Marathon runner )
    Di Edwards (runner, Olympic semi-finalist)
    Katie Fitzgibbon (marathon runner)
    Clare Francis (sailer)
    Louis Freitas (body builder)
    Carol Gould (marathon runner)
    Estelle Gray (cyclist)
    Sammy Green (runner)
    Ruth Heidrich (vegan 3-time Ironman finisher, marathoner, age-group record holder)
    Sally Hibberd (British Women's Mountain Bike Champion)
    Sharon Hounsell (Miss Wales Bodybuilding Champion)
    Desmond Howard (formerly w/Washington Redskins, now w/Jacksonville Jaguars)
    Roger Hughes (Welsh National Ski Champion)
    David Johnson (BAA coach)
    Kathy Johnson (Olympic Gymnast)
    Alan Jones (British ski jumper)
    Billie Jean King (tennis champion)
    Killer Kowalski (wrestler)
    Jack LaLanne (vegan Fitness guru)
    Donnie LaLonde (Former Light Heavyweight Champion of the World.)
    Tony LaRussa (Manager of St. Louis Cardinals - US team)
    Silken Laumann (Olympic rower)
    Judy Leden (British, European & World Hang Gliding champion)
    Marv Levey (Buffalo Bills Coach)
    Jutta Müller (multiple Windsurfing World Cup Champion)
    Jack Maitland (triathlete and fell runner)
    Cheryl Marek (cyclist)
    Leslie Marx (fencer;1996 woman's epee national champion)
    Kirsty McDermott (runner)
    Lindford McFarquar (body builder)
    Robert Millar (cyclist)
    Katherine Monbiot (vegan world champion arm wrestler and nutritionist)
    Monika Montsho (weightlifter, 2 x runnerup GB Championships 60kg, NW woman weightlifter of the year 1991)
    Edwin Moses
    Martina Navratilova (Tennis)
    Julie Ann Niewiek (Basketball commentator)
    Paavo Nurmi
    Robert Parish (Center - Warriors, Celtics, Hornets, Bulls)
    Bill Pearl (Bodybuilder, Mr America)
    Bill Pearl (Mr. Universe and bodybuilder)
    Anthony Peeler (NBA Grizzlies basketball player)
    Dave Scott (vegan five time winner of the Ironman Triathlon) Debbie Spaeth-Herring (Georgia State power-lifter)
    Lucy Stephens (vegan triathlete)
    Jacques Vaughn (All American point guard, #1-ranked Univ of KS Jayhawks) Kirsty Wade (runner)
    Bill Walton (basketball player)

    Last edited by junkbondtrader; 01-23-2004 at 08:12 AM.

     
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    Old 01-23-2004, 08:37 AM   #17
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wearesiamese
    Like I mentioned, I eat meat. Every day, actually. But I have always strived to know a lot about health, food, etc. I do think a vegetarian diet can be complete. Why wouldn't soy protein do the job?
    Vegetarian is perfectly healthy because it includes animal proteins.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 08:39 AM   #18
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    LOL.

    nenofury, your posts just get funnier and more nonsensical as you go along. 6,000 calories a day? good one, thanks for the chuckle, it's been a busy few days and i needed a laugh. where on god's green earth are you coming up with this crap?

    No one ever mentioned anything about a carb only diet. There are plenty of quality plant fats and proteins in vegetarian foods, and anyone shooting for a carb only diet would be a)insane, and b)destined to fail. Vegetarian does NOT equal carb only. Not even close. Get a clue!

    I haven't noticed vegans to be flabby, as they tend to be leaner than most. But don't take it from me, see what the American Dietetic Association has to say about the health impacts of a vegetarian diet (hint: see where it says 'lower body mass index', then crack a dictionary and learn what that means, willya?):

    "Vegetarian diets low in fat or saturated fat have been used successfully as part of comprehensive health programs to reverse severe coronary artery disease (3,4). Vegetarian diets offer disease protection benefits because of their lower saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein content and often higher concentration of folate (which reduces serum homocysteine levels) (5), antioxidants such as vitamins C and E, carotenoids, and phytochemicals (6). Not only is mortality from coronary artery disease lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (7), but vegetarian diets have also been successful in arresting coronary artery disease (8,9). Total serum cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels are usually lower in vegetarians, but high-density lipoprotein cholesterol and triglyceride levels vary depending on the type of vegetarian diet followed (10).

    Vegetarians tend to have a lower incidence of hypertension than nonvegetarians (11). This effect appears to be independent of both body weight and sodium intake. Type 2 diabetes mellitus is much less likely to be a cause of death in vegetarians than nonvegetarians, perhaps because of their higher intake of complex carbohydrates and lower body mass index (12).

    Incidence of lung and colorectal cancer is lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (2,13). Reduced colorectal cancer risk is associated with increased consumption of fiber, vegetables, and fruit (14,15). The environment of the colon differs notably in vegetarians compared with nonvegetarians in ways that could favorably affect colon cancer risk (16,17). Lower breast cancer rates have not been observed in Western vegetarians, but cross-cultural data indicate that breast cancer rates are lower in populations that consume plant-based diets (18). The lower estrogen levels in vegetarian women may be protective (19).

    A well-planned vegetarian diet may be useful in the prevention and treatment of renal disease. Studies using human being and animal models suggest that some plant proteins may increase survival rates and decrease proteinuria, glomerular filtration rate, renal blood flow, and histologic renal damage compared with a nonvegetarian diet (20,21)".

    ----

    "Crackpot hippies?" Do your background checks and you will find that to not be the case at all. The people I mentioned are well educated, medically certified healthcare practitioners with decades of experience under their belts. Again, why are you making stuff up? Could it be that you can't factually support the position that you have an emotional stake in believing?

    And finally, some "weak" vegetarians, you know, to bolster your argument:

    Hank Aaron (home run champion in major league baseball)
    B J Armstrong (US Basketball star)
    Carl Lewis (vegan 9 time olympic gold medalist in track & field)
    Al Beckles (body builder)
    Sorya Bonali (ice skater)
    Les Brown (veteran runner)
    Peter Burwash (tennis)
    Andreas Cahling (body builder)
    Andreas Cahling (bodybuilder)
    Chris Campbell (1980 world champion wrestler)
    Joanna Conway (ice skater)
    Sylvia Cranston (triathlete)
    Sally Eastall (vegan Marathon runner )
    Di Edwards (runner, Olympic semi-finalist)
    Katie Fitzgibbon (marathon runner)
    Clare Francis (sailer)
    Louis Freitas (body builder)
    Carol Gould (marathon runner)
    Estelle Gray (cyclist)
    Sammy Green (runner)
    Ruth Heidrich (vegan 3-time Ironman finisher, marathoner, age-group record holder)
    Sally Hibberd (British Women's Mountain Bike Champion)
    Sharon Hounsell (Miss Wales Bodybuilding Champion)
    Desmond Howard (formerly w/Washington Redskins, now w/Jacksonville Jaguars)
    Roger Hughes (Welsh National Ski Champion)
    David Johnson (BAA coach)
    Kathy Johnson (Olympic Gymnast)
    Alan Jones (British ski jumper)
    Billie Jean King (tennis champion)
    Killer Kowalski (wrestler)
    Jack LaLanne (vegan Fitness guru)
    Donnie LaLonde (Former Light Heavyweight Champion of the World.)
    Tony LaRussa (Manager of St. Louis Cardinals - US team)
    Silken Laumann (Olympic rower)
    Judy Leden (British, European & World Hang Gliding champion)
    Marv Levey (Buffalo Bills Coach)
    Jutta Müller (multiple Windsurfing World Cup Champion)
    Jack Maitland (triathlete and fell runner)
    Cheryl Marek (cyclist)
    Leslie Marx (fencer;1996 woman's epee national champion)
    Kirsty McDermott (runner)
    Lindford McFarquar (body builder)
    Robert Millar (cyclist)
    Katherine Monbiot (vegan world champion arm wrestler and nutritionist)
    Monika Montsho (weightlifter, 2 x runnerup GB Championships 60kg, NW woman weightlifter of the year 1991)
    Edwin Moses
    Martina Navratilova (Tennis)
    Julie Ann Niewiek (Basketball commentator)
    Paavo Nurmi
    Robert Parish (Center - Warriors, Celtics, Hornets, Bulls)
    Bill Pearl (Bodybuilder, Mr America)
    Bill Pearl (Mr. Universe and bodybuilder)
    Anthony Peeler (NBA Grizzlies basketball player)
    Dave Scott (vegan five time winner of the Ironman Triathlon) Debbie Spaeth-Herring (Georgia State power-lifter)
    Lucy Stephens (vegan triathlete)
    Jacques Vaughn (All American point guard, #1-ranked Univ of KS Jayhawks) Kirsty Wade (runner)
    Bill Walton (basketball player)

    LOL, nice cut and paste. What, no thoughts of your own?? You can't prove your argument about veganism, so now you pretend like you are arguing on the behalf of vegetarianism. Or maybe you don't even know the difference??? Keep trying, your post proved nothing about a vegan diet.

    Last edited by nenofury; 01-23-2004 at 08:42 AM.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 08:42 AM   #19
    wearesiamese
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nenofury
    LOL, nice cut and paste. What, no thoughts of your own?? You can't prove your argument about veganism, so now you pretend like you are arguing on the behalf of vegetarianism. Or maybe you don't even know the difference??? Keep trying.
    You know, if Junkbondtrader had not done a cut and paste, and only included his/her own thoughts, you would have asked him/her to back it up with text.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 08:43 AM   #20
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wearesiamese
    You know, if Junkbondtrader had not done a cut and paste, and only included his/her own thoughts, you would have asked him/her to back it up with text.
    I was just poking fun. No big deal.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 09:15 AM   #21
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Of course I know the difference, neno. And I know about vegetarianism firsthand because I've lived as a vegetarian for about twelve years, and vegan for the last several of those.
    And, yes, a healthy one. I'm at a normal weight, jog 2 miles a day, and feel better than ever. I know this can be dismissed as anecdotal or you could make me out to be a liar, which is why I chose to include information from other sources which could not be so easily dismissed, as wearesiamese recognized.

    What do you know about it yourself, other than some obviously false rumors and whatever "facts" you care to make up at any given moment. ?? obviously not a whole lot.

    If you want to further your own agenda, of meat consumption, that's fine and dandy, but your posts here are counterproductive to that goal considering they have such obvious misinformation and false claims, again none of which you even attempt to substantiate with facts or studies.

    Last edited by junkbondtrader; 01-23-2004 at 09:20 AM.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 09:28 AM   #22
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    i think it is interesting to note that wearesiamese and i have different diets and philosophies, but that he/she is articulating a belief that well-planned vegetarian diets can be as nutritionally sound and adequate.

    you attempt to say that the only person who would say so is a hippy/peta member/ etc, yet ignore the fact that several in the thread do not fit this description. have a little respect for people and actually read and think about what they have to say, and we will afford you the same respect in return if you start trying to support the claims you make. it's that simple.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 09:31 AM   #23
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    Of course I know the difference, neno. And I know about vegetarianism firsthand because I've lived as a vegetarian for about twelve years, and vegan for the last several of those.
    And, yes, a healthy one. I'm at a normal weight, jog 2 miles a day, and feel better than ever. I know this can be dismissed as anecdotal or you could make me out to be a liar, which is why I chose to include information from other sources which could not be so easily dismissed, as wearesiamese recognized.

    What do you know about it yourself, other than some obviously false rumors and whatever "facts" you care to make up at any given moment. ?? obviously not a whole lot.

    If you want to further your own agenda, of meat consumption, that's fine and dandy, but your posts here are counterproductive to that goal considering they have such obvious misinformation and false claims, again none of which you even attempt to substantiate with facts or studies.
    Your previous post advocated a vegatarian diet, which is a perfectly healty diet that INCLUDES ANIMAL PRODUCTS. You proved MY point, not yours. You haven't included ANY sources about the vegan diet. I have researched health and nutrition thoroughly. I also have several vegetarian and vegan friends. I'm not trying to further an agenda. Someone posted a question and I gave them a factual response. I don't advocate eating meat at all. I sometimes find meat disgusting. I advocate eating for optimal health which includes animal proteins; whether it's meat, cheese, eggs, or just whey protein powder.

    Now what EXACTLY have I said that you can prove to be false or misinformed using stricly empirical data. Please tell me why established facts on human physiology and evolution are now rendered false. Explain to me why after two million years of eating an omnivourous diet, human beings can now magically switch to an herbaceous diet. What miracle has changed our basic anatomy and physiology......please tell me, I really want to know.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 09:34 AM   #24
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    i think it is interesting to note that wearesiamese and i have different diets and philosophies, but that he/she is articulating a belief that well-planned vegetarian diets can be as nutritionally sound and adequate.

    you attempt to say that the only person who would say so is a hippy/peta member/ etc, yet ignore the fact that several in the thread do not fit this description. have a little respect for people and actually read and think about what they have to say, and we will afford you the same respect in return if you start trying to support the claims you make. it's that simple.

    You are both correct. A properly planned vegetarian diet is healty. You are now backpeddling from your original argument that a vegan diet is healty. Sucks to get owned, huh?

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 09:59 AM   #25
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    i am in no way backpedalling from saying that veganism is healthy.

    "Now what EXACTLY have I said that you can prove to be false or misinformed using stricly empirical data."

    Must we do a re-cap?
    1)Your first statement was that there are no vegan sources of some essential amino acids. Absolutely untrue. I responded by listing vegan sources for all of the essential amino acids.

    2) You stated that no credible nutritionist, doctor, etc. would advocate or support a vegan diet. I gave you seven examples of well known people fitting your own description who do.

    3) You said that vegans tend to be flabby. I cited the American Dietetic Association (who lets face it have a lot more credibility than you, an anonymous poster in cyberspace) who report that vegans overall have lower body mass indeces. This information is widely acknowledged and cross-referencing a number of credible sources will yield the same empirical and statistical information.

    4) You referred to veganism as a "carb only" diet. This is one of the most assinine and ignorant statements I have ever heard. I know it to be false, and so do you.

    5) You presumed me personally to be "fat and unhealthy" with a body fat of greater than 25%. Not the case. In fact I am in the best health of my life according to my physician.

    6) You say that vegans are weak, yet I found many examples of award winning vegan athletes, which you ignored out of hand. Re-read the list.

    I could go on, but I have other things to do. You've dug your own grave in this discussion, now lie in it, and I'm going to go have a blueberry pancake (yes, a vegan one, and no i won't share it, neener neener) and get on with my day.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 10:27 AM   #26
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    i am in no way backpedalling from saying that veganism is healthy.

    "Now what EXACTLY have I said that you can prove to be false or misinformed using stricly empirical data."

    Must we do a re-cap?
    1)Your first statement was that there are no vegan sources of some essential amino acids. Absolutely untrue. I responded by listing vegan sources for all of the essential amino acids.

    2) You stated that no credible nutritionist, doctor, etc. would advocate or support a vegan diet. I gave you seven examples of well known people fitting your own description who do.

    3) You said that vegans tend to be flabby. I cited the American Dietetic Association (who lets face it have a lot more credibility than you, an anonymous poster in cyberspace) who report that vegans overall have lower body mass indeces. This information is widely acknowledged and cross-referencing a number of credible sources will yield the same empirical and statistical information.

    4) You referred to veganism as a "carb only" diet. This is one of the most assinine and ignorant statements I have ever heard. I know it to be false, and so do you.

    5) You presumed me personally to be "fat and unhealthy" with a body fat of greater than 25%. Not the case. In fact I am in the best health of my life according to my physician.

    6) You say that vegans are weak, yet I found many examples of award winning vegan athletes, which you ignored out of hand. Re-read the list.

    I could go on, but I have other things to do. You've dug your own grave in this discussion, now lie in it, and I'm going to go have a blueberry pancake (yes, a vegan one, and no i won't share it, neener neener) and get on with my day.

    1) Sources that have to be taken in very large amounts. To get the minimal 50 grams of protein per day, not even possible.

    2)Well known does not equal credible. Nor does it equal unbiased.

    3)You cited the American Dietetic Association which stated VEGETARIANS, not VEGANS have a lower BMI. Again, you fail to understand the difference.

    4)Vegan diets, as they are practiced, are mostly carbs. Some fat, minute amounts of protein.

    5)No proof.

    6)You provide examples of VEGETARIAN athletes. They eat ANIMAL PROTEIN. Once again, you do not understand the difference.

    The list doesn't go on and on because you have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously, are you a little kid, or just stupid???

    VEGAN AND VEGETARIAN ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 11:05 AM   #27
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    1) Not true. I have single vegan meals which include 30-40 grams of protein (and no, they are not inordinately caloric)...See other threads for numerous examples of high protein foods. I do not have time to make you a list right now as I have work in a half hour. Where you get the idea that it is impossible to get 50 grams of protein a day as a vegan is beyond me.

    2) Of course well known does not equal credible, nor does it equal unbiased.
    However, the people I mentioned are credentialled and respected within their fields. I welcome you to look them up if you want rather than taking my word for it. Do the research before you make these uninformed statements.

    3) I do not fail to understand the difference, you fail to read critically. Vegetarian was defined situationally within that article to include several types including both ovo-lacto and vegan varieties of vegetarian diets. All vegetarians were found to have lower BMI's than non-vegetarians.

    4)Vegan diets are higher in carbohydrates than many non-vegan diets. Where you get the idea that they include only miniscule protein, again is anyone's guess. This is untrue.

    5)You can call me a liar all you want. It doesn't matter. I know the truth of my own health, and have no reason to lie about it. At the same time, given the other substantiation of a vegan diet as a viable lifestyle, my personal health is not crucial to this discussion to begin with.

    6)RE-READ THE LIST. It includes vegetarian athletes, some of whom consume dairy and eggs, some of whom ARE VEGAN. I do understand the difference, you ------- --------.

    I love that you can't deal with having your nonsense corrected so you resort to calling me stupid. How very mature.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 11:28 AM   #28
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    1) Not true. I have single vegan meals which include 30-40 grams of protein (and no, they are not inordinately caloric)...See other threads for numerous examples of high protein foods. I do not have time to make you a list right now as I have work in a half hour. Where you get the idea that it is impossible to get 50 grams of protein a day as a vegan is beyond me.

    2) Of course well known does not equal credible, nor does it equal unbiased.
    However, the people I mentioned are credentialled and respected within their fields. I welcome you to look them up if you want rather than taking my word for it. Do the research before you make these uninformed statements.

    3) I do not fail to understand the difference, you fail to read critically. Vegetarian was defined situationally within that article to include several types including both ovo-lacto and vegan varieties of vegetarian diets. All vegetarians were found to have lower BMI's than non-vegetarians.

    4)Vegan diets are higher in carbohydrates than many non-vegan diets. Where you get the idea that they include only miniscule protein, again is anyone's guess. This is untrue.

    5)You can call me a liar all you want. It doesn't matter. I know the truth of my own health, and have no reason to lie about it. At the same time, given the other substantiation of a vegan diet as a viable lifestyle, my personal health is not crucial to this discussion to begin with.

    6)RE-READ THE LIST. It includes vegetarian athletes, some of whom consume dairy and eggs, some of whom ARE VEGAN. I do understand the difference, you ------- --------.

    I love that you can't deal with having your nonsense corrected so you resort to calling me stupid. How very mature.
    You haven't corrected anything. I've owned you in this thread for one simple reason.... You still haven't addressed why human beings are now magically able to have perfect health on a vegan diet. You have not explained how our anatomy and physiology have changed to allow a vegan diet. I am willing to listen......show me the evidence!!!!! How have human beings suddenly become the only omnivoures on planet earth that are able to eliminate flesh from their diet with NO ILL EFFECTS??????

    I didn't call you stupid, only asked...because I can't understand how an intelligent person would continue with a losing argument. ...

    If you want to be a vegan because you love animals than fine. Have pride in that. Inventing silly rationalizations makes you look like a wimp. My vegan friends don't feel the need to do that.

    Now, respond to this post by addressing the only issue at hand.........the miraculous change that allows humans (omnivoures) to now eat only plant material?? If you can show me this, I'll recant everything I've said.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 11:35 AM   #29
    nenofury
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    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    1) Not true. I have single vegan meals which include 30-40 grams of protein (and no, they are not inordinately caloric)...See other threads for numerous examples of high protein foods. I do not have time to make you a list right now as I have work in a half hour. Where you get the idea that it is impossible to get 50 grams of protein a day as a vegan is beyond me.

    I'd love to know what this "meal" is.

     
    Old 01-23-2004, 11:58 AM   #30
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    wearesiamese HB User
    Re: I need some info from you vegetarians + vegans.

    "If you want to be a vegan because you love animals than fine. Have pride in that. Inventing silly rationalizations makes you look like a wimp. My vegan friends don't feel the need to do that. "

    --Lots of vegans out there are vegan for many other reasons than loving animals. To some, meat-- the smell, texture, etc. is repulsive. Sometimes I'm grossed out by it too even though I'm currently doing the high protein/low carb thing. But I always have said that if, starting today, I could never eat meat again, I'd be fine with it. And... no one has really answered me-- doesn't soy protein fill in most if not all gaps left by the absence of meat?

     
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