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  • Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

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    Old 03-06-2004, 02:44 AM   #16
    Shane S
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    I know there have been studies that have shown people on Atkins will lose a significantly greater amount of weight early on compared to individuals on balanced diets that include carbs.
    I think that's part of the concept behind low carb diets. Get people to think they've achieved something quickly, and they're hooked.

    Quote:
    I do believe that Atkins can be a great diet plan for young healthy people that need to lose a few quick pounds...
    They should just carb up and do HIIT.

    Quote:
    Yes, progress building muscle while on ANY weight loss diet is slower than on a normal diet.
    Agreed. But at some point, Atkins has to not become about weight loss.

    Quote:
    For those of us who want to get stronger AND lose weight, our choices are a bit different from someone who is just lifting to get big (to gain weight, in fact).
    I'd suggest dextrose post-HIIT as well, although obviously I'd go with less calories daily for weight loss than gain. I don't cut carbs (as a percentage) when cutting.

    For any intense workout, even just for getting in better shape without the intent of competing, carbs are necessary to spare muscles from being broken down for energy.

    There are no long-term low carb studies...

    Quote:
    I just can't for the life of me figure out how I've been doing all this weight lifting and intense cardio.
    It's not intense, or at least not intense enough. Almost everyone, even those who think they're working intensely, doesn't know enough about exercise to be getting a truly intense workout. I know I myself fell into this category at one point. Then I did a workout that left me in pain while attempting to brush my teeth (even still, that wasn't really intense) and started doing HIIT, at which point I changed my mind and realized my old workout was not intense at all.

    Quote:
    Although you said, more precisely, that it was not natural "for the human body to be DEPRIVED of carbs..." so you may be confusing a low or moderate carb diet with a NO carb diet, a common error.
    Anything labeled low carb is deprivation.

    Quote:
    (By the way, some of them get pretty muscular, too.)
    Eskimos are known for their strength.

    Quote:
    Pregnant women are by and large in ketosis for most or all of their 40 weeks
    Which is an undesirable and unusual (how often is someone carrying a fetus?) condition indicating starvation that can be fatal.

    Quote:
    It turns out the body can burn free fatty acids, glycogen, OR ketones, and thrive.
    I'll agree with that, but only because I'm accepting that the term thrive is being used loosely.

    Quote:
    Humans have been in northerh Europe, for one example, for more than 40,000 years, and they were not getting Zone Diet meal deliveries in those caves in February, I guarantee.
    They were also dying in their 20s, with luck.

    Last edited by Shane S; 03-06-2004 at 02:47 AM.

     
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    Old 03-06-2004, 07:08 AM   #17
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    [
    Agreed. But at some point, Atkins has to not become about weight loss.


    **Yes, it becomes more about weight mainenance, as do all diets that succeed. But my point was that if you are trying to reduce flab with ANY diet, definitely including low-carb, you can still get benefit from exercise, and without carbing up.



    I'd suggest dextrose post-HIIT as well, although obviously I'd go with less calories daily for weight loss than gain. I don't cut carbs (as a percentage) when cutting.


    **Your choice. I do cut 'em. HIIT is great.


    For any intense workout, even just for getting in better shape without the intent of competing, carbs are necessary to spare muscles from being broken down for energy.

    ***No. Carb intake reduces the likelihood that Protein will be broken down for energy, but if your diet includes lots of protein, especially quick digesting proteins such as weight lifters love in their whey drinks, if in other words the plasma amino acid pool is rich, if you have lots of protein in your diet, there is little or no evidence that the body will digest its own tissues for energy before it consumes the available blood aminos. Just the opposite. Protein turnover is a mysterious thing in some ways, but net muscle gain is easy to show in the studies, with just modest protein supplements--well below the pounds of muscle resulting.

    **I do believe in SOME carbs before and after exercise. The studies that discovered muscle gain advantage from these feedings or supplements, by the way, almost all used only 8 to 10 grams each of carbohydrate and protein. Weight lifters, in their usual excited way, decided that if 10 grams are good, 50 grams must be five times as good! Indeed, 8 or 10 grams each of protein and carbs sounds very modest, but the studies find that this nutrient availability encourages the body to use fule from the blood stream rather than from tissue breakdown. A surprising result, but supported by all the studies of this issue.
    But there is no evidence, and I mean NO evidence that anything above a very modest carb/protein boost before and after intense exercise, adds any muscle mass after the first ten grams (of each) or so. Just to be sure, I add lots more protein (usually a whey or milk protein drink), but avoid adding lots more carbs. I just find it turns to fat, otherwise. But, that's me.

    There are no long-term low carb studies...


    **Well, almost true. There are too few long term studies of any weight-management diets at least partly because it is so hard to find many people who stick to any for long enough. No more true of carb than cal. However, there are some studies one example being the studies of children treated with ketogenic diets for convulsion control, for years and years. They seem to thrive.
    More long term studies of weight loss diets are needed. But as a ffirst step, I think us weight losers have to produce more examples of long term application, so it can be studied.


    It's not intense, or at least not intense enough. Almost everyone, even those who think they're working intensely, doesn't know enough about exercise to be getting a truly intense workout. I know I myself fell into this category at one point. Then I did a workout that left me in pain while attempting to brush my teeth (even still, that wasn't really intense) and started doing HIIT, at which point I changed my mind and realized my old workout was not intense at all.


    **Well, excuse me. I've been able to continue brushing my teeth, so I guess the exercise program I've been following is deficient. Having great results, though.



    Anything labeled low carb is deprivation.

    **Re-stating this over and over does not make it so.



    Eskimos are known for their strength.

    **Yes, exactly my point. They are among the remaining hunter cultures and have a very high protein, high fat diet. Almost no carbs, yet lots of muscles. How to explain this??????



    Which is an undesirable and unusual (how often is someone carrying a fetus?) condition indicating starvation that can be fatal.

    **Pregnancy is not usual, especially in recent centuries, but it was not always so for women, and it is NOT undesireable. Ketosis does not "indicate" starvation. It indcates low carb intake--this happens either in deprivation OR in calorie rich, otherwise complete, low carb diets, too.


    They were also dying in their 20s, with luck.[/QUOTE]

    ***Well, their thrties and maybe forties. But so were everybodydying like that then, including folks with tons of fruit surrounding them in the tropics. the causes of short life span ten thousand years ago did not include following an atkins diet.

    sean

    Last edited by sean; 03-06-2004 at 01:56 PM.

     
    Old 03-06-2004, 09:23 AM   #18
    Shane S
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    But my point was that if you are trying to reduce flab with ANY diet, definitely including low-carb, you can still get benefit from exercise, and without carbing up.
    That could last for an eternity (or two), for most people, low carbers in particular.

    Quote:
    Your choice.
    Because it's right.

    Quote:
    HIIT is great.
    But relatively ineffective without carbs (and the same could be said for doing it without protein).

    People don't want all their protein going toward energy... it's supposed to go toward muscle building. The carbs are there for energy. As for quick digestion, all the fat in a low carb diet slows down anything along those lines.

    The only way 8 grams of protein and carbs will help is if your workout routine consumes 100 calories, in which case you're probably sleeping through most of it. Of course, based on what I see in the gym, that's not far fetched. FWIW, studies have been done with significantly greater amounts.

    Ask a fit person what they eat. Odds are carbs will be the highest percentage.

    Quote:
    I guess the exercise program I've been following is deficient.
    At least we're on the same page now.

    That was my sarcastic font. I've never heard anybody talk about eskimo strength.

    I agree with your basic sentiment that everyone was dying early back then. However, my point was that if that's your argument for a thriving culture, it's not going to cut it.

    Last edited by Shane S; 03-06-2004 at 09:24 AM.

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 01:37 AM   #19
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Sorry sean, bout veggies not allowed...I didn't meant that came from atkins....that came from my Dr....he put me on a diet like atkins!! had to go get the keytone stiks and whatnot!!! anyway I am or was way over weight about 75lbs over my weight goal he (my Dr) was trying to get me in keytosas very quick by not having any carbs at all maybe only like 4 per day for about 2 or 3 weeks then slowly get back on low carbs...but he told me that veggies was a no no what so ever..he said no fruits too? no fruits was allowed? no surgar what so ever and veggies most veggies had sugar!!! so I was very faithful as to what he said... duh...hey I didn't know any better...lol....I figured he's the Dr? I basicly had eggs beacon for breakfast pork rinds and cheese for dinner and a unbreaed meat for super....I did this faithfully I did get to eat a surgar free jello ...he the (Dr told me I could have as much as these kinds of foods as much as I wanted no limit on them as far as portion size? but that was it!
    while on his diet...I ask him how long do I have to stay on this diet of his...he said until your weight is down to what I need it to be!
    I lost about 30 lbs in 2 months... but like I said I got scared of it and got back on the carbs and needless to say my weight went back thru the celling....Iam back on the atkins and loseing slowely but surely.


    The thing that concerns me is when I do get to my weight goal do I stay on atkins? or just watch my carbohydrates? they will seek up on you before you know...I think it's mainly about portion size anyway?
    don't be a pig and you won't be fat!!!!


    But as time went on I stop his diet after bout 2 months because I got scared because of my nurtition intake obviously Needless to say he's not my Dr anymore ...I Fired him...lol

    .... I did get the atkins book and done some reading up on it....atkins has a 2 week induction phase then you start the diet as far what and how much you should consume, I have not read the whole book yet but so far it makes a lot of sense but so far personally I think even the atkins is pretty strick?

    Any waythis is a very interesting thread!...I'm learning and I appreciate you guys!
    I too hope some one answered charlie....

    Last edited by chevyman; 03-07-2004 at 01:47 AM.

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 02:01 AM   #20
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    btw,
    I don't know if this is true but I had heard that by drinking Dill pickel juice 3 times/10 oz size about 30 oz a day and stay pretty much on a diet like eatting the proper foods and proper portions that you can lose weight twice as fast as being on a low carb diet? without exersise?

    I don't know bout this...but I do seem to remember about two years ago the eagles beat up on the cowboys by drinking Dill Pickel Juice....lol

    Last edited by chevyman; 03-07-2004 at 02:03 AM.

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 06:12 AM   #21
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chevyman
    The thing that concerns me is when I do get to my weight goal do I stay on atkins? or just watch my carbohydrates? ...I too hope some one answered charlie....

    You will have to stay on Atkins to some degree to keep off any weight you lose - as soon as you return to a "non-atkins" diet you WILL gain your weight back - at least some of it. Being on Atkins long-term wreaks havoc on your metabolism and makes it even more difficult to maintain a healthy weight on a "normal" balanced diet.

    I answered Charlie earlier in this thread... Knowing you BMR is the basis for controling you weight with a balanced diet and activity level. Everyone has a unique BMR so everyone's plan will be different.

    Losing weight is simple if you know your BMR... adjust your calorie intake and/or increase your activity and you will lose weight. It doesn't get any simpler.

    And following a plan like this is WITHOUT any healthrisks, doubt, or controversy. It's a sure thing and it lasts a lifetime.

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 05:55 PM   #22
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jdimassimo
    You will have to stay on Atkins to some degree to keep off any weight you lose - as soon as you return to a "non-atkins" diet you WILL gain your weight back - at least some of it. Being on Atkins long-term wreaks havoc on your metabolism and makes it even more difficult to maintain a healthy weight on a "normal" balanced diet.
    I must be missing something because I really don't see much difference between an Atkins maintenance plan and what just about every other plan/expert recommends.

    What is it you see as so different? That would wreak havoc on metabolism? (This is a new one . . . how does Atkins allegedly wreak havoc on one's metabolism?) As so deviant from "normal" (whatever that is)?

     
    Old 03-07-2004, 10:22 PM   #23
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by auntjudyg
    I must be missing something because I really don't see much difference between an Atkins maintenance plan and what just about every other plan/expert recommends.

    What is it you see as so different? That would wreak havoc on metabolism? (This is a new one . . . how does Atkins allegedly wreak havoc on one's metabolism?) As so deviant from "normal" (whatever that is)?
    I am always amazed when people get defensive about the Atkins diet. Hey, if it works for you, great! Stay on it! But Charlie, who initiated this post, is YET ANOTHER person who has experienced the problems that the Atkins diet causes. I was simply responding to his request for a healthy alternative. But I will answer your questions

    "What is it you see as so different?" Well there is a HUGE difference... Atkins maintenance plan allows up to 90 grams of carbs - BUT most people will not be able to maintain the weight loss unless they keep their carb intake at around 40-60 grams per day.

    If an average person of average height and weight consumes 2000 calories per day to maintain their weight, and only 160 to 240 of those calories are carbs, that means that over 1700 calories of fat and protein will be consumed. Even if someone on Atkins Maintenance is one of the lucky few who actually CAN maintain weight consuming 90 carb grams daily, 1640 of those calories will be fat and protein. This is not what I call a healthy diet or lifestyle.

    "This is a new one . . . how does Atkins allegedly wreak havoc on one's metabolism?" Nothing new here, really! Why is it that a person, after having reached their goal weight, would have so much trouble maintaining their weight eating more than 40, 60, or 90 carbs? Because the metabolism has been altered and it's EXTREMELY difficult to reverse. When most people go on "low-carb" or "carb-depraved" eating plans, their metabolism will slow down. This is a protective mechanism of the human body, which needs carbs as fuel for muscles. When your body is starved for the fuel it needs, it makes its own from muscle tissue. This is a form of starvation. When the body is in this state and carb intake is increased, because the body is in protective mode it will not only gain pounds, but FAT. In fact, in some cases the thyroid function is disturbed causing even further health problems.

    I do happen to completely agree that many simple carbs are unhealthy and should be reduced dramatically and/or eliminated. By that I mean foods made from processed sugar and flour. But complex carbs are good for the body - they provide fuel that muscles need to function, they provide dietary fiber which cleanses the body and protects it from a variety of health risks, and finally, carbs provide a normal weight person with proper calorie intake without the health risks of a high protein/high fat diet.

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 10:25 AM   #24
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jdimassimo
    I am always amazed when people get defensive about the Atkins diet. Hey, if it works for you, great! Stay on it! But Charlie, who initiated this post, is YET ANOTHER person who has experienced the problems that the Atkins diet causes. I was simply responding to his request for a healthy alternative. But I will answer your questions

    "What is it you see as so different?" Well there is a HUGE difference... Atkins maintenance plan allows up to 90 grams of carbs - BUT most people will not be able to maintain the weight loss unless they keep their carb intake at around 40-60 grams per day.

    If an average person of average height and weight consumes 2000 calories per day to maintain their weight, and only 160 to 240 of those calories are carbs, that means that over 1700 calories of fat and protein will be consumed. Even if someone on Atkins Maintenance is one of the lucky few who actually CAN maintain weight consuming 90 carb grams daily, 1640 of those calories will be fat and protein. This is not what I call a healthy diet or lifestyle.

    "This is a new one . . . how does Atkins allegedly wreak havoc on one's metabolism?" Nothing new here, really! Why is it that a person, after having reached their goal weight, would have so much trouble maintaining their weight eating more than 40, 60, or 90 carbs? Because the metabolism has been altered and it's EXTREMELY difficult to reverse. When most people go on "low-carb" or "carb-depraved" eating plans, their metabolism will slow down. This is a protective mechanism of the human body, which needs carbs as fuel for muscles. When your body is starved for the fuel it needs, it makes its own from muscle tissue. This is a form of starvation. When the body is in this state and carb intake is increased, because the body is in protective mode it will not only gain pounds, but FAT. In fact, in some cases the thyroid function is disturbed causing even further health problems.

    I do happen to completely agree that many simple carbs are unhealthy and should be reduced dramatically and/or eliminated. By that I mean foods made from processed sugar and flour. But complex carbs are good for the body - they provide fuel that muscles need to function, they provide dietary fiber which cleanses the body and protects it from a variety of health risks, and finally, carbs provide a normal weight person with proper calorie intake without the health risks of a high protein/high fat diet.
    It has yet to be determined if a diet which is very heavy on protein and healthy fats and oils, and light on starches and sugars is somehow unhealthy. Certainly, we know that the opposite is unhealthy. Each persons point of balance among the major nutrient groups will be an individual thing and many of us find lower carb balance points than was recommended by the convential wisdom only a few years ago. We seem to be well. Just you saying that it is not what you see as a healthy lifestyle does not make it unhealthy.

    As to the problems of maintenance, and lower metabolism, this is one of the most well documented, and admitedly most frustrating, results of ALL successful weight loss programs. Your metabolism slows down. Therefore, as you slim, losing additional pounds and then keeping slim takes addtional effort. (Your metabolism also slows with age, so as the years go by this just exacerbates the issue. And irritates me!)

    This is not the result of which diet you choose, but of pounds lost and arithmetic. Your basal metabolic rate, your daily calorie requirement, is determined first and foremost by how much you weigh. As you weigh less, your BMR drops.

    Yes it is said that starvation diets precipitate an even steeper metabolic drop, and therefore interfere even more sharply with continued weight loss (after initial sharp losses) or long term maintenance than is accounted for by the weight loss alone. But this "starvation resistance" or "starvation rebound" phenomenon was discovered with, and has been reported on most extensively with, low CAL diets, especially VLCD--very low calorie diets. If a similar pattern has been reported with low carb diets, I am unfamiliar with it.

    The studies on long term weight loss maintenance usually conclude that diet is the surest route to weight loss, but diet PLUS exercise is the surest means to weight loss maintenance over time. This is at least partly so, we can safely hypothesize, because the exercise loses the calories that the metabolism is no longer burning. (What? An Atkins supporter who believes in calorie deficit? yes)

    Exercise is just so good for us anyway--heart, lungs, mood, weight loss, diabetes prevention, bone density and so on--that not to include it in our long term planning is self defeating. I know we don't disagree on this part. But the metabolic offset is an interesting aspect of the need for exercise that is often overlooked.


    sean

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 11:53 AM   #25
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Sean, I don't disagree with much of what you say, however find me a person on Atkins maintenance who is successfully eating 1700 calories of protein and healthy fats. While there may be a minority few who actually accomplish this, I think it's safe to say that the masses on Atkins (or their interpretation of Atkins) are eating diets rich in saturated fat and high in cholesterol. This is extremely risky as a long-term lifestyle and it will lead to heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, kidney disease, thyroid disease and many other problems. Here, we must remember to look at how people actually use the diet, not how it is intended to be used! What I see as unhealthy is how most people use the Atkins diet. Cold cuts, cheese, bacon, eggs, butter, mayonnaise, fatty beef, etc... Now, if a person was eating 1700 calories worth of Swordfish, then I would be truly surprised!!!

    Regarding starvation - there is no doubt that any severe dietary changes, including Atkins and most other "fad" diets, will result in a slowing of the metabolism. I am not singling out Atkins other than to point out that with Atkins, you ARE starving the muscles of glucogen and forcing the body to create its own from fat and muscle tissue - this is the premise of how the diet works - and it IS starvation! Starvation is not defined soley by severe calorie deficit!!! My other point was simply that when a person attempts to transition from Atkins to non-Atkins their body will experience weight gain and fat gain... I suppose some of that could be counteracted with excercise (a lot of excercise) but it would be an uphill battle for sure.

    On the other hand, dropping one's calorie intake to 20% below their BMR and keeping all nutrients balanced will definately NOT result in starvation and the liklihood of the body maintaining the weightloss is far greater. Yes, as the weight loss occurs, the BMR must be adjusted because the smaller body requires fewer calories and nutrients.

    Similarly, a smaller person will need to excercise more to burn the same amount of calories as someone twice their size (ar as they once did when they weighed more) - that is just plain physics! And that is why excercise becomes even more critical after the weight loss has occurred - and yet this is often when people stop their excercise routine!

    There is no denying that most people can successfully lose weight on Atkins. But when the weight is off, how does a person successfully transition to maintenance without the aftereffects of starvation?

    I am certainly not advocating a diet heavy in starches and sugars - I am suggesting a diet that is based on BMR that is 50% carbs (with an emphasis on complex carbs and dietary fiber) is the safest longterm model to follow with the fewest risks and greatest chance of long-term success.

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 07:54 PM   #26
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    I don't know how to do that neat thing of putting th quoted sentences in a box, and then my words outside it (til the end, it somehow worked there)

    S0, I'm gonna set my words off with asterisks at beginning and end. ****
    hope this helps.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jdimassimo
    Sean, I don't disagree with much of what you say, however find me a person on Atkins maintenance who is successfully eating 1700 calories of protein and healthy fats. While there may be a minority few who actually accomplish this, I think it's safe to say that the masses on Atkins (or their interpretation of Atkins) are eating diets rich in saturated fat and high in cholesterol.


    **I do think that many many folk misinterpret what they THINK an Atkins program--or similarly, Protein Power or the like--really is. Folks may sometimes be too lazy to exercize, but really sad are those who are too lazy to read. Or read plus think.***


    I am not singling out Atkins other than to point out that with Atkins, you ARE starving the muscles of glucogen and forcing the body to create its own from fat and muscle tissue - this is the premise of how the diet works - and it IS starvation!


    ****The premise of how the diet works is that by reducing sharply your insulin levels you will reduce energy storage as fat. Fat will NOT be made, not from muscle cells or other, in a very low insulin environment. The premise of Atkins has nothing --I repeat nothing--to do with forcing the body to create its own glycogen. At all, not from muscle, not nothing. The premise of the diet is that by breaking the carb/insulin link we may be able to reduce sharply the body's tendency to make any fat at all, from any source at all. We just plain reduce the body's energy storage as fat, period.

    To compensate for the low intake of glucose, we force the body to make KETONES, which are made from fat, and are not to my knowledge made from muscle. This becomes our energy source. By the way, all of us are running on ketones for part of each day--often for hours just before and after waking, for one common example. Ketones are a fine fuel.

    Yes, if you don't eat much protein, there is the chance the body's protein turnover balance will turn negaitve, and some amino acids will be made into glycogen. Actually some are, all the time, no matter the diet. But with a high protein food intake, especially with many meals per day, there is no evidence that the body will PREFER its own muscle tissue to food for energy. When the blood is well supplied with amino acids from diet (e.g., an Atkins protein-rich diet), there doesn't seem to be negative nitrogen balance at all. In other words, the body will not purposely destroy itself to get protein broken down into glucose if there is plenty of protein coming into the metabolic system by the usual route--diet. And the body may not be very hungry for glucose/glycogen at all anyway, once its made its adaptation to ketone fuel.

    Whether you believe or not that research or experience supports that this happens, so be it, but do not think the premise of the diet is to "force" the body to make glucose-from muscles or from anything. Just the opposite, in a way, the premise could be stated as to wean the body OFF glycogen fuel and toward ketones as fuel. There seems to be ample evidence that this is an adaptation the body can make.

    I think the studies are now numerous that show ANY weight loss regimen reuces lean muscle mass UNLESS it is a program rich in protein paired with resistance exercise. And, the lower carb/higher protein diets--even at exactly the same calorie level--preserve more lean tissue. Paired with exercize, they even allow added muscle mass. I don't think this is still in serious dispute among those studying these things. Perhaps I'm wrong.***




    On the other hand, dropping one's calorie intake to 20% below their BMR and keeping all nutrients balanced will definately NOT result in starvation and the liklihood of the body maintaining the weightloss is far greater. Yes, as the weight loss occurs, the BMR must be adjusted because the smaller body requires fewer calories and nutrients.




    ***We agree. Weight loss itself, unfortunately, creates its own weight maintenance issue, since BMR drops. And it drops more, the more successful the weight loss program is. Shucks. So more effort may be required to stay slim than was needed to get slim--especially exercize may turn out to be essential. Even if we didn't seem to need it to lose the weight in the first place. For most of us, anyway.****



    Similarly, a smaller person will need to excercise more to burn the same amount of calories as someone twice their size (ar as they once did when they weighed more) - that is just plain physics! And that is why excercise becomes even more critical after the weight loss has occurred - and yet this is often when people stop their excercise routine!


    ***We agree again.***



    There is no denying that most people can successfully lose weight on Atkins. But when the weight is off, how does a person successfully transition to maintenance without the aftereffects of starvation?


    ***By following Atkins' suggestions for maintenance. Or any similar maintenance program you figure out that you can stick to--the same way you'd handle maintenance challenges after any weight loss program.

    An atkins reader would no doubt settle on a maintenance plan that had fewer carbs than would a low-calorie follower, but since the atkins diet might in fact still be pretty rich in calories, I think the "starvation" threat would be remote.

    It's hard to starve on a diet that allows a half dozen eggs for breakfast if you feel like it, a huge ham and cheese sandwich for lunch (yes a couple of pieces of whole grain bread would not even touch the maintenance ceiling for carbs), a huge salad with rich full fat olive oil dressing for a snack, a piece of fruit or two (again within maintenance, easily), and a two pound steak for dinner if you can possibly eat that 2,000 calorie monster. Okay, how about a giant pound and a half of salmon at about 1,200 calories........And then a cottage cheese midnight snack. you get the idea. This is not starvation in any common sense of the word, but it is entirely within Atkins maintenance guidelines. (there were less than about 80 carb grams in all that--cut out one of the fruits or slices of bread if you're cutting back).***



    I am certainly not advocating a diet heavy in starches and sugars - I am suggesting a diet that is based on BMR that is 50% carbs (with an emphasis on complex carbs and dietary fiber) is the safest longterm model to follow with the fewest risks and greatest chance of long-term success.


    ***Again, I can't say I disagree. If for you, you can follow a plan like this and keep to your weight, it could be a very healthy solution. I happen to be, it seems, tooooo sensitive to carb intake--maybe I'm insulin hyper-reactive or something--and the couple of times I tried your kind of thing, I just put on a pound or so a week until I went back to cutting carbs. It was most disheartening. I lost months of progress in only several weeks.

    So, there we are. For me, your alternative did NOT have "the greatest chance of long term success." In fact, the opposite, it failed. The plan I've returned to over these five years or so is a lower-carb plan, and it works for me. No symptoms of starvation even after all these years. (In fact, muscle growth--a near impossibility in starvation--is my new hobby. Going okay, too.)

    So, I guess we are different. That's okay, too. ***


    sean

    Last edited by sean; 03-08-2004 at 08:04 PM.

     
    Old 03-09-2004, 12:24 AM   #27
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    It's true what the both of you are saying here!

    My wife was on weight watcher for years (7) / 1700 calories a day and was a cool slim 115 lbs did arobic class three times a week........well she got burn out...and she gained....she was just tired of starving her self/while I had my bad carbs.....hence.... we both got fat togather!!!

    Everyone is allowed there own opinion, I tend to believe that the Atkins way of dieting is a safe and healthy way to lose weight and make you feel better..........after the weight goal is reach... it's up to that person that lost all that weight rather or not they want to keep it off by following the atkins mantance program?... of corse thats up to them.

    If the Atkins is bad for your body on a long term use/then that has yet to be proved to me!

    It's true in any diet program IF you don't follow "mant" you probably will start a weight gain

    To me a low carb/diet/atkins or just a simple low carb hi protein diet was design to help the person that just can't be true to a diet that will have them starving....most people can't diet and be hungry all the time.

    In his diet and on maint....your not eatting like you was when you first started his diet/ eatting same foods yes but less....and to me eatting less is taking in less fat/ taking in less fat is not letting your old artries get clogged up like some folks think!!!

    Taking in all that fat and protein /even a simple lay person such as my self would think that all that fat is bad for you/ but the body does amazing things within its self (metabolic factor) it's hard to understand just how the low carb dieting works...unless you do tons and tons of research on it......I put my faith in the late " Dr Robert C Atkins" MD.........I feel that his expertise and research on low carb dieting has been proved to be the the most modern day effective way to lose weight in a healthy safe way and if followed by his program to maintain a healthy and better way of life.

    I believe he wanted to help people to lose weight and get them feeling better about them selfs in the duration of there life time!!/ he did this book not to make money or the glory of selling a best seller book..........I don't think he needed the $$$ he was a Dr for havens sakes....and A PRETTY GOOD ONE IN MY BOOK.

     
    Old 03-09-2004, 04:10 AM   #28
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Sean, I didn't mean to say that the body produces its own glucogen - I left out a word - it produces its own "fuel" - ketones... I do understand that It is this response that I am calling a form of starvation. If the body were receiving sufficient "fuel" from food it would not produce the level of ketones that are produced when on Atkins induction phase.

    As I have mentioned, I am not anti-atkins. I have said in other posts that I do believe it is possible that that this diet will work for some people. I even believe that it is a great way for young and healthy people to lose a quick few pounds.

    I will tell you that it did NOT work for me or my husband, it did not work for any people I know, and I continue to hear of people, like Charlie (who started this thread) whose positive results are immediately reversed as soon as they return to eating carbs - even in a healthy, responsible way.

     
    Old 03-09-2004, 05:34 AM   #29
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jdimassimo
    Sean, I didn't mean to say that the body produces its own glucogen - I left out a word - it produces its own "fuel" - ketones... I do understand that It is this response that I am calling a form of starvation. If the body were receiving sufficient "fuel" from food it would not produce the level of ketones that are produced when on Atkins induction phase.

    As I have mentioned, I am not anti-atkins. I have said in other posts that I do believe it is possible that that this diet will work for some people. I even believe that it is a great way for young and healthy people to lose a quick few pounds.

    I will tell you that it did NOT work for me or my husband, it did not work for any people I know, and I continue to hear of people, like Charlie (who started this thread) whose positive results are immediately reversed as soon as they return to eating carbs - even in a healthy, responsible way.


    I understand, I think each of us needs to find what works for each AND what we feel we can stick with. Otherwise, it will certainly fail, no matter the science.

    By the way, Charlie had terrific success--his loss came to six pounds per month AFTER adding back in the water weight. A very fine result. He was just upset that he didn't keep the 10 pounds per month--the 32 pounds in three months he thought he was losing. This is greedy and unrealistic, I think. Unless you are very obese to begin with, losing ten pounds of true weight loss each month is not going to happen. Unless your diet is just plain too extreme.

    In Charlie's case both cautions apply: his approach was indeed extreme, continuing the induction phase for more than the two weeks suggested, and he counted on a weight loss that could not possibly be achieved except by misunderstanding the water weight phenomenom in the first place. Nonetheless, the results he got would or should be considered an impressive first three months of weight loss. I meant to suggest this to him in my early responses, but was too subtle, I guess.

    sean

     
    Old 03-09-2004, 06:53 AM   #30
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    Re: Transition from Atkins to 'normal' low caloric/low fat/ exercise regime?

    I have spent many months on Atkins bulletin boards. I have read the books; I have followed the plan faithfully for 1 1/2 years (the third time round).
    I see a HUGE dichotomy between the oft-quoted:
    Quote:
    A diet which is very heavy on protein and healthy fats and oils, and light on starches and sugars.
    and the reality of Atkins.

    The reality is a diet which is 30-50% saturated fat by calories. Yes, there's the sprinkling of the olive oil on the salad....but there's PLENTY more butter, lard, beef, pork, hamburgers (hold the bun), cheese, cream and eggs....and they are all high fat-high saturated fat foods.
    On most boards, anyone with under 50% fat calories is a true rarity (and it's EXTREMELY hard to do on low carb- I tried!)

    Now that I've had my coronary stent placed, it's time for bye-bye Atkins high fat eating...and any other steak and eggs variant!

    Last edited by zip2play; 03-10-2004 at 04:39 AM.

     
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