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    Old 12-06-2003, 11:18 AM   #31
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    i have never seen a study showing "clear toxicity of soy" or even close, and have seen many many things to make me believe it is beneficial in many ways. but we've been through this before so it's up to anyone who cares to do their own research, i don't have time to rehash the whole thing.

    some further information on ketosis:

    Unlike most cells, the brain and nerve cells can't use fatty acids for fuel, and they need glucose (from carbodohydrates). Liver and muscle cells must also break down to some extent, because some of their amino acids suffer. This is a big waste of your body protein. The accelerated breakdown of protein increases the amount of nitrogen that gets excreted, and in order to dilute that nitrogen to levels the kidneys can handle, water is drawn from the rest of the body.
    Protein breakdown can cause cellular potassium to be excreted in the urine, which can in turn cause dizziness, fatigue and, if severe enough, heart arrhythmia.

    Only about 5 percent by weight of a fat molecule can be converted into glucose, and using fat to make glucose overloads the body with free fatty acids (the 95 percent that can't be used). After several days your body shifts to a state of ketosis, during which it converts accumulated fatty-acid and some amino-acid fragments into ketone bodies, a fuel alternative to glucose. Ketone bodies (toxins)- are strong organic acids and can lead to acidosis (high levels of blood acidity), which can disturb many functions.

    Mild ketosis may not be acutely dangerous, but that doesn't mean that it's healthy to release toxins into your bloodstream. Also, other lean muscle tissues and even organ tissue can be broken down, too, not just fat. Does that seem unsafe to anyone else?

     
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    Old 12-06-2003, 07:46 PM   #32
    sean
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Not only is ketosis NOT dangerous for us, there is considerable evidence that it is the type of energy metabilism we were evolved to live by. High carbohydrate diets, in fact a consistent intake of any large amount of carbohydrates throughout the year (outside of a narrow peak growing season), did not occur until after the introduction of agriculture, and even more, until after food preservation methods became common. Just the last few centuries in many parts of the world, in other words.

    There are still many cultures in the world--for example, many seaside peoples who live outside temperate zones--whose diets are such that they spend much of the year living on very protein heavy diets and thriving in almost permanent ketosis. Their brains do not fall out.

    Pregnant women are in ketosis for most of that 40 weeks.

    There are many situations, in other words, in which the body expects to cope by burning ketone bodies and does so, and thrives. Each of us owes our healthy birth to this process.

    Ketosis is simply NOT ketoacidosis, despite the common tendency to confuse the two. No more than having some blood sugar at all is the same as having diabetes, a potentially fatal disease characterized by very high levels of glucose in the blood.

    Hamer's and nsa's and junkbondtrader's postions are what were the common hypotheses before research actually began to be done on these points in the last several years. These were the ideas everyone repeated and expected, but no one had tested. Some seemed perfectly obvious--eat fats and your arteries will clog, as one example. Over the last decade or so, as researchers have tested more of these conceptions, they have proved to be misconceptions, or the medical/nutritional equivalent of urban myths.

    The most surprising of these is that the arteries will not lay down fatty plaque on a low carbohydrate diet. Insulin is needed, and without carbs, no insulin. This was a terrific surprise to the early researchers--low carb, high-meat, cheese and egg diets actually lowered cholesterol and cardiac risk. But the results have come up in every study done so far.

    The brain does very well without carbs (I have been following a low-carb diet for many years now, and my IQ just tested this weekend as high as in high school--which was a very respectable score, by the way). My total cholesterol is low (140), and hdl is high. I don't get headaches any more than everyone else--rarely. I don't suffer from weakness--have been increasing the intensity of my exercise program these last couple of years greatly in fact--and have added resistance training lately to very gratifying effect. And so on, and so on. If it was just me, it wouldn't mean much, but the research says this is typical.

    The "expected" or predicted disasters simply do not show up in the research. Generally, the health results of low-carbing are measurably salutary.

    And yes, going off the regimen will mean gaining the weight back This is true of ALL weight control regimens. You don't have to keep to a weight LOSS scenario for life, but yes, if you are of the metabolic or behavioral type to gain weight when not watching carefully, then of course going off a disciplined regimen (low carb or other) will be greeted by regaining the weight. That's how we got overweight to begin with.

    A life-long change is needed. Atkins provides a phased way of getting to that life-long lifestyle change. There are other ways to do it, but this has worked for me and for many thousands of others. And, by and large, we are healthier for it.

    You should follow whatever dietary program works for you, but leave us alone, would you, about Atkins? It is a great way to eat but if you are not following it, then it's no skin off your teeth, is it?

    Best to you.


    sean

    Last edited by sean; 01-05-2004 at 12:09 PM.

     
    Old 12-07-2003, 02:09 AM   #33
    RMiller
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    I will only add a few points to Sean's post.

    The concept of low fat high carb diets was built on a flawed study back in the fifties.
    First a little background.
    Just prior to WWll, the government was looking for a compact meal that could be carried in the field by the troops. They contacted a Univ. of Minnesota Nutritionist professor named Ansel Keyes to design such a meal.
    Keys was the pre-eminent nutritionist of his time and took up the challenge and came up with the infamous "K Rations". The K stood for Keyes.
    Aside from the nearly indigestible foodstuffs in his concoction, he included cigarettes, which he apparently thought were fine.

    Keyes was also a big promoter of the health benefits of margarine over butter.
    After the war, Keyes, with his new found reputation decided to do a study on what should be the ideal nutrition for Americans.
    He put together a team and managed what was called the "Seven Countries Study" . His purpose was to find the definitive link to heart disease.
    His conclusions, however were faulty, as later research would prove.
    He determined that "low fat" and "lowering cholesterol" were the basis for good health. One of his major detractors was Eisenhower's personal physician who harshly criticized Keyes data linking low fat to health.
    However, the agriculture industry embraced him and lobbied on his behalf.

    Even when the government itself determined that some of Keyes initial findings were wrong, they did not change their position that fat is bad.

    I can cite the relevant studies if need be, but I think everyone gets the gist of it.

    The article cited by JunkbondTrader is misleading.
    What actually occurs is that the body breaks down fats and essentially turns them into glucose for assimilation. The fat has more than double the energy value of carbohydrates. Essential Fatty Acids are needed for absorpttion of vitamins, cellular repair, and the formation of cholesterol. What is not used by the body beyond that is eliminated through excretion.

    If anyone cares to research this further here are some things to look up.

    Pyruvic Acid
    ATP
    Krebs Cycle (citric acid cycle)
    Glycolysis


    It is a fascinating study no matter what your views, but seperating fact from fiction will keep you healthier.
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    Last edited by RMiller; 12-07-2003 at 02:17 AM.

     
    Old 12-07-2003, 09:09 AM   #34
    junkbondtrader
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    its not worth arguing, to each his/her own. i still think the atkins diet is insane, you still probably think my diet is insane. but if we both feel healthy, and plan to stick with it anyway, arguing is pointless. hopefully before making any major dietary changes people will do their own research & talk to their doctors anyway and find something they feel comfortable with. peace.

     
    Old 12-07-2003, 10:11 AM   #35
    RMiller
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by junkbondtrader
    its not worth arguing, to each his/her own. i still think the atkins diet is insane, you still probably think my diet is insane. but if we both feel healthy, and plan to stick with it anyway, arguing is pointless. hopefully before making any major dietary changes people will do their own research & talk to their doctors anyway and find something they feel comfortable with. peace.
    JBT..
    We are not arguing, just sharing differing opinions.
    The whole objective is to achieve nutrition while stabilizing blood sugar levels, regardless of your diet.
    Over time, glucose and insulin swings lead to diabetes, heart disease, and early aging.

    A high carb diet is more inclined to bring about the above mentioned swings, but you can't feel them. The only thing you may feel is an energy boost followed by fatigue.

    I would encourage everyone to get a glucose monitor and check their sugar levels regularly. They only cost about $15.

    Far cheaper than a doctor's visit.
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    Last edited by RMiller; 12-07-2003 at 10:12 AM.

     
    Old 12-09-2003, 08:43 PM   #36
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Do you drink a lot of caffeiene? If you did and now don't, I would bet it is the caffine. I went throught the same thing...caffeiene withdrawal. I went back to drinking caffine to avoid the headaches. Too painful.

     
    Old 12-11-2003, 09:11 PM   #37
    lamby-pie
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Everybody disagreeing with the Atkins way of life is confusing the entire diet with the first 2 week "induction" period. Yes, you might get headaches and weak from sugar withdrawal and yeast die-off. Then your body adjusts after the de-tox. The two week induction is to break the sugar habit and start the body burning fat rather than carbohydrates. Vegetables on induction are a must!
    After the two week induction, more vegetables are added, then fruit and whole grains. When one is close to goal weight, most foods can be added back into the diet with the exception of sugar and white flour products. I say "most foods" because some of us learn of food allergies along the way and learn to avoid those foods. Lean meats instead of fatty meats are also recommended as one reaches goal.
    As for the comment that Atkins diets gain their weight back after "going off the diet", name one diet where you don't gain back weight after going back to eating garbage! Atkins is a lifestyle change.
    So what is so unhealthy about giving up sugar and white flour? THAT is Atkins!

     
    Old 12-11-2003, 09:13 PM   #38
    lamby-pie
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Oh, and fruit is loaded with fructose, which converts to glucose (sugar!!) in the body. That is why fruit intake is restricted during the first few weeks.

     
    Old 12-12-2003, 01:18 AM   #39
    nsa18
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Even if fruit is loaded with "sugar".Do you actually think fruits are bad for you?? No one i know has ever had weight problems because of fruit. The problem with atkins is that they treat white sugar the same as sugar in fruits. Thats not correct. Sure the body converts both to glucose but white sugar is bad and fruits are not.

     
    Old 12-12-2003, 05:31 AM   #40
    RMiller
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nsa18
    Even if fruit is loaded with "sugar".Do you actually think fruits are bad for you?? No one i know has ever had weight problems because of fruit. The problem with atkins is that they treat white sugar the same as sugar in fruits. Thats not correct. Sure the body converts both to glucose but white sugar is bad and fruits are not.
    I think you are misunderstanding the concept.
    When people do Atkins, the induction phase is designed to accomplish two things.
    Stabilize the blood sugar
    Promote the burning of stored fat.

    Carbs inhibit the burning of fat due to the insulin produced.
    Insulin actually blocks the burning of fat stores as a protective mechanism to prevent fat from competing with glucose for fuel.
    That is why a low fat/high carb diet inhibits weight loss.
    Most weight loss is lean muscle mass rather than fat.

    With Atkins induction you use fat for fuel (the fat actually converts to glucose) and the blood sugar stays in check.
    Fruit sugars are a little different than white sugar in that there are other components in fruit that slow down its effect on your glucose levels.

    However, fruit sugar will also inhibit fat burning so that is why they are off limits during the induction phase. Once you are near your goal weight, fruits are reintroduced back into the diet.
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    Old 12-12-2003, 03:27 PM   #41
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nsa18
    Even if fruit is loaded with "sugar".Do you actually think fruits are bad for you?? No one i know has ever had weight problems because of fruit. The problem with atkins is that they treat white sugar the same as sugar in fruits. Thats not correct. Sure the body converts both to glucose but white sugar is bad and fruits are not.
    Yes, as a person suffering from systematic candida, fruits are bad for me. Most people can handle them, as they can handle candy bars, food coloring, white bread, etc. with no problems. These foods, including fruit, will literally make me sick.
    As my health improves, I hope to be able to add fruit back to my diet in small amounts, no more than one piece of fruit a day.

     
    Old 12-15-2003, 11:56 PM   #42
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    I am also on this diet........I have not had my head hurt. I have been going to certain web sites that allow me to plan my meals in advance and it shows me my carb count and also a list of whats in the food i pick out. I love to play with it! ha ha
    and believe it or not I EAT ALOT under 20 carbs! ha ha are you eating right? enough?
    then again i sort of cut down on my coffee, what i did was mix my coffee 1/2 caffene and 1/2 not in each pot i make. so i lowered my caffene but not gave it up all the way........My goal is to get off it in time but i knew I could not go cold turkey. try this if your used to caffene....I still lost 4 pounds last week and did this.

    muslimlady

     
    Old 01-03-2004, 01:36 PM   #43
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by muslimlady
    I am also on this diet........I have not had my head hurt. I have been going to certain web sites that allow me to plan my meals in advance and it shows me my carb count and also a list of whats in the food i pick out. I love to play with it! ha ha
    and believe it or not I EAT ALOT under 20 carbs! ha ha are you eating right? enough?
    then again i sort of cut down on my coffee, what i did was mix my coffee 1/2 caffene and 1/2 not in each pot i make. so i lowered my caffene but not gave it up all the way........My goal is to get off it in time but i knew I could not go cold turkey. try this if your used to caffene....I still lost 4 pounds last week and did this.

    muslimlady
    You should never go under 20 carbs a day. You cannot get enough veggies on that amount. Stay in the 20-30 range.

     
    Old 01-05-2004, 04:10 PM   #44
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    so is atkins worth buying?

    this is seriously confusing...I want to lose the weight but I'm affraid of getting stupid.
    is this all PETA, environmentalist propaganda?

    Is your brain really going to shrivle up and die (I'm in college and I have to friggin learn, do you seriously get confused and stupid) are my intestines going to explode because I'm a meat eater?....I love meat and would love to eat a lot of it but I don't want to hurt my brain, ***? Does the Atkins thing really mess up your brain? I could care less about being constipated...I'll just chug some peptobismol.
    does it permanently damage you? I just want to do it until I'm skinny then I want to really bulk up the muscles...or can I start that right now while I'm "losing" weight.

    have there been any cases of people "kicking the bucket" on atkins? Has anyone become insane?


    If I do decide to go on atkins, what will exactly should I buy? (people who have done this)

    Last edited by Korn; 01-05-2004 at 05:19 PM.

     
    Old 01-06-2004, 06:41 AM   #45
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    Re: Atkins and headache?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Korn
    so is atkins worth buying? . . .

    If I do decide to go on atkins, what will exactly should I buy? (people who have done this)
    The book is quite widely available in libraries and used book stores, but even the paperback is not terribly expensive, if money is tight (which it is for most students).

    At this point in time there really are not many definitive answers about nutrition, and if it ever is sorted out my prediction is that they will find that no one plan is best for everyone. So we are left to read a variety of opinions and see what makes sense to us individually.

    There is an awful lot of faulty information circulating about Atkins. There is one particular group of doctor who seem to be making a career of attacking Atkins. But, there have been no reported cases of anyone's brain shrivelling up (many report clearer thinking after cutting out carbohydrates [particularly refined ones]); and no one's colon has exploded (but please don't guzzle pepto - take a fiber supplement, if necessary); nor have they gone insane (though I think some have come close by being confronted over and over again by the same untrue criticisms of Atkins); nor kicked the bucket.

    But planning on going on Atkins only until you lose the weight is not the best approach. Cutting carbs is a long term venture. With Atkins one starts by severely limiting carbohydrates and then adding them back gradually. Long term, I think most people still maintain a relatively low level of carbs - and the recommendation is to stay away from refined carbs as much as possible (which just about everyone recommends). If you don't have much weight to lose, it would be that cutting out refined and simple carbs could do the trick for you.

    Really, you do not need to buy anything except whatever food you eat and supplements (recommendations are made in the book). There are lots of Atkins and low-carb products out there, but Atkins' recommendation is to eat real food and make every carb count by using them to eat nutrient dense foods.

    Good luck!

     
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