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    Old 03-30-2004, 10:42 AM   #1
    24WF
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    Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Hello,

    I am 41 years old, 5'7" and 190 pounds, and just had a physical and blood test completed. The following results came back:

    Total Cholesterol 194 (don't remember the ratio of LDL to HDL)
    TriGlycerides 197
    BP 150/90
    C-Reactive Protein 3.7 (CRP)
    all other tests were normal ...

    The doctor says my CRP test results show that I am at High Risk for early Heart attack. Because of this, he has strongly recommended the use of Lavostatin in addition to weight loss, baby aspirin, and a low-salt diet.

    I have been reading a lot about the "statin" meds and would really like to avoid drugs if possible. With this in mind, I have two questions:

    1. With CRP results as listed above, should I be seriously looking at using the statins even though there are potentially bad side-effects?

    2. If not, what are the most effective suppliments I can take to reduce my LDL and raise my HDL levels?

    Any suggestions are appreciated.

    thanks!

     
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    Old 03-30-2004, 02:01 PM   #2
    JacquelineL
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    If your total cholesterol is 194, then it may be that your numbers are not bad at all. We need to know what your HDL is to know for sure. I would recommend a low carb diet to lower the triglycerides and probably the LDL level as well as likely reduce your weight.

     
    Old 03-30-2004, 06:15 PM   #3
    24WF
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    JacquelineL,

    Thanks for the response. I spoke with the Dr. this afternoon and realize I had a few numbers wrong. This is the update:

    Total Cholesterol 194
    LDL = 40 , HDL = 121
    TriGlycerides 167
    BP 150/90
    C-Reactive Protein 3.7 (CRP) (Quintile 4: High-risk 2.1 to 3.8 mg/L for Heart Attack/Disease)

    The Dr. said "research shows that a high CRP score dictates using a statin-based med to reduce Cholesterol and reduce the risks of premature heart attack." He also said that if I didn't have a high CRP score, my Cholesterol was basically normal, but with the high CRP score my LDL needs to be lowered to below 100.

    Another thing I failed to mention earlier is that my father had a heart attack at 40, and this is what prompted me to ask the doctor about a potential issue with my blood pressure being mildly high. That's when he ordered the CRP test.

    I just don't want to start with Lavostatin unless it is absolutely necessary. I am looking for a good natural alternative.

    Your comments/suggestions are appreciated.

    thanks,
    ric

     
    Old 03-30-2004, 09:49 PM   #4
    JacquelineL
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    It looks like you reversed the LDL and HDL. You don't have far to go to get below 100 LDL. Omega-3 (fish oil) to raise your HDL would certainly be a good idea. It would also help the C-reactive protein according to what I read. A low carb diet, fish oil, and exercise should all help. I don't know very much about the prescribed treatment for this condition, though a very low dose of statin should get your number where the doctor wants it.

     
    Old 03-31-2004, 04:45 AM   #5
    CobaltBlue
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 24WF
    1. With CRP results as listed above, should I be seriously looking at using the statins even though there are potentially bad side-effects?

    2. If not, what are the most effective suppliments I can take to reduce my LDL and raise my HDL levels?
    Ric,

    I would do what Jacqueline suggested and as far as supplements, perhaps try to take an aspirin in the evening before bed. Doing these (weight loss, exercise, aspirin) took my hs-CRP from 1.8 down to 0.11. However, by the first time I had my hs-CRP measured, I had already dropped 30 lbs and started exercising--no telling how high it had been before when I had my MI during my obese and sedentary part of my life.

     
    Old 03-31-2004, 05:28 AM   #6
    zip2play
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Let me add my voice to what Jackie and Ubie have posted:
    No statins needed.
    Fish oil and lifelong daily aspirin <and you don't need to overpay for those silly "kiddie" aspirins...generic 325 mg just fine (and 2/$.01 for super shoppers).> If the high dose scares you, split them in two and cut your cost to a quarter cent.

    Last edited by zip2play; 03-31-2004 at 05:30 AM.

     
    Old 03-31-2004, 09:09 AM   #7
    24WF
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Folks,

    Thanks for the advise. It will be taken. JaquelineL, you are right .. I did reverse the LDL and HDL numbers. You input is greatly appreciated.

    thanks,
    ric

     
    Old 05-22-2004, 05:59 PM   #8
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 24WF
    JacquelineL,

    Thanks for the response. I spoke with the Dr. this afternoon and realize I had a few numbers wrong. This is the update:

    Total Cholesterol 194
    LDL = 40 , HDL = 121
    TriGlycerides 167
    BP 150/90
    C-Reactive Protein 3.7 (CRP) (Quintile 4: High-risk 2.1 to 3.8 mg/L for Heart Attack/Disease)

    The Dr. said "research shows that a high CRP score dictates using a statin-based med to reduce Cholesterol and reduce the risks of premature heart attack." He also said that if I didn't have a high CRP score, my Cholesterol was basically normal, but with the high CRP score my LDL needs to be lowered to below 100.

    Another thing I failed to mention earlier is that my father had a heart attack at 40, and this is what prompted me to ask the doctor about a potential issue with my blood pressure being mildly high. That's when he ordered the CRP test.

    I just don't want to start with Lavostatin unless it is absolutely necessary. I am looking for a good natural alternative.

    Your comments/suggestions are appreciated.

    thanks,
    ric
    This is odd... My CRP was 2.1 and it states that a CRP level of 1.0 - 3.0 is Average Cardio Risk....not the High Risk as you have indicated above...

    Anyone have any ideas?

     
    Old 05-22-2004, 07:27 PM   #9
    rahod
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 24WF
    Folks,

    Thanks for the advise. It will be taken. JaquelineL, you are right .. I did reverse the LDL and HDL numbers. You input is greatly appreciated.

    thanks,
    ric
    Your ratio of Total to HDL is 5..not good...should be under 4. You need to raise your HDL to at least 50..that means AEROBIC exercise (30 min) daily. That should also bring your BP down as well. GO FOR IT!

     
    Old 05-24-2004, 12:07 AM   #10
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Hi: CRP only means that there is an inflamation some where in your body. The source needs to be determined. (search the web for C reactive protein test)... Don't start on the statins. Do a little cholesterol 101. Search how cholesterol is used in the body. You will be shocked. Statins will kill you. It has never been proven that cholesterol causes heart problems. You doctor will disagree, but do your homework. The tests have all been flawed. They are always! using more than one variable in the test. Did you know that statin drugs contain an anti inflamatory, and an anti aggregation for platelets. These are both part of the statin molecule. They can't test them independently, because if they try to pull them apart the destroy the statin molecule. Therefore, you can't tell with part of the statin is helping and which part is hurting. If you must take a statin, you MUST take CoQ10. Do your research on Co Q10 also. If I were you I would discount the short term statin tests, (less than 4 years)...look at the long term test. Expecially look at the plain cholesterol tests (long term) once you read about cholesterol, you will understand why the short term statin tests are flawed. good luck

     
    Old 05-24-2004, 05:39 AM   #11
    zip2play
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    24WF,

    If you're still with us , I've just stumbled on a doctor's recommendation to try a short course of antibiotics in the event of a high CRP. Some errant infection anywhere in the body can kick the number up quite a bit.

    Finres,

    Do you care to enlighten us on the source of your phrase: "Statins will kill you?"
    Will it be a 100% kill rate or is there a chance that some will survive?

    Last edited by zip2play; 05-24-2004 at 05:42 AM.

     
    Old 05-24-2004, 07:01 AM   #12
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Finres,

    I am not following some of the statements you made in your post and wanted to ask you to explain a little more so that I can get a better handle on how I need to research the issues you mentioned.

    With respect to hs-CRP, the level of CRP is correlated to the level of inflammation which in various studies seems to predict coronary events. I have read that statins (maybe due to the anti-inflammatory they contain) do decrease the level of hs-CRP, as does aspirin. I am not sure that the source can always be determined. There are cases where the CRP is extremely high and the cause is obvious; however, in cases where the hs-CRP ranges between 0.1 and 2.0, the cause is usually nonobvious.

    As for cholesterol, again, I don't think anyone here is saying cholesterol is the cause of the problem. It is how the body handles the cholesterol that is. The levels of cholesterol, as we separate them then are nothing more than predictors based upon some model (lets say Framingham). Of course, models aren't foolproof; there are always outliers that don't fit within.

    When you were talking about the research you did, can you give some examples of the references you used? I am curious if you know of any pubs in refereed journals that mention the harm caused by statins due to combination of both properties: anti-inflammatory and anti-aggregation of platelets?

    As for ubiquinone, I do take that even though I don't take a statin. I have read, just as you pointed out that it is recommended when one takes a statin. People who take beta-blockers are also good candidates for this supplement.

    Can you tell me more about the long term statin test? What did you find in your research that was alarming in the long term? You mentioned statins will kill you.

     
    Old 05-25-2004, 07:49 PM   #13
    Madge
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    A year and a half ago, my total cholesterol was 255 and my CRP level was a whopping 5.4! The doctor was really upset about the CRP. He put me on Lescol XL and told me to lose 30 to 40 pounds. He also said to cut out foods that promote inflammation and cause higher CRP, such as red meat, anything made with white flour or trans fats (hydrogenated fats), and peanuts. I was so scared that I did pretty much eliminate the foods he said I shouldn't eat. Six months later and 30 pounds lighter, my total cholesterol was 169 (subtests and liver enzymes all fine) and my CRP level was down to 2.1, which the lab sheet said was average. Another test six months later showed that while my cholesterol had crept up to 190, my CRP remained low at 2.0. I want to get off the Lescol or at least reduce the dose, but my doctor says that would be a mistake, since my total cholesterol is high normal now. The stories I hear about statins worry me. I do take 100 MG of CoQ10 each day, since I'm concerned about muscle damage. (And after all, the heart is a muscle.) I will keep on avoiding the red meat, etc., since I noticed such a big drop in CRP level, but I'd really like to cut the Lescol dose. Wonder whether the CRP and cholesterol would go up again if I dropped the Lescol, despite the weight loss. Wish we knew more about all this stuff.

     
    Old 06-05-2004, 03:12 AM   #14
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    I'm sorry about my post. I read it again and I didn't explain very well. Statin drgus do lower cholesterol that is true;However the statin molecule as well as lowering cholesterol also contain an anti-aggregation factor(which is good) and an anti-inflamatory (which is good). The problem with statins is that this is all one molecule. It cannot be broken apart to see if just lowering the cholesterol alone is the active part. If you break the molecule apart you destroy it. Therefore it can't be proven that the lowering of cholesterol is in itself important. Cholesterol is necessary for many body functions. You can look up uses of cholesterol in the body. As cholesterol is produced by the liver it is also produced by the brain, for use specificly by the brain. These tests were preformed by radioactive dye. Statins are know to cause periphiral neuropathy. You can find many of these reports (done by highly skilled experts) not drug companies, by looking up dangers of statin drugs. The Merck patent (#4,933,165) for statin drugs also include a patent for adding CoQ10 to a statin to decrease the dangers of Myopaties and neuropathies. (go to USPTO and type in patent number) Merck states the dangers of statin CoQ10 depletion. As of yet they do not put CoQ10 in there statins. It is obvious that Merck knows of the dangers, of statins. You might also check out "The Statin Study" now being conducted by UCSD. It is being funded by the NIH (national institude of health), and not by drug companies. I suppose the most alarming in my statin research is that statins might not show detremental side effects for 3 or 4 years on the thearpy. Also I do know for a fact that many doctors do not believe the side effects of statins and therefore do not report them as such. I can state one case first hand. My Mother. She told her doctors that she was having trouble walking and some balance problems. She asked numerous times if this could be due to statins. They told her in no uncertain terms that this was not a side effect of statins. She got progressively worse. At the same time she was taking Diltiazem (calcium channel blocker). Diltiazem is know to increase the effective dosage of statins (lipitor) by 3.9 times. It is a chemical fact and the reports are readily available through Lexicomp online. It is caused by using the same chemical pathways, CYP 450. They continued to give her an effictive dose of 80 mg of lipitor. Her problems got worse. She went to a cane. Her doctor had her scared to stop taking the Lipitor. (Her cholesterol was never over 260) They got her cholesterol down to 170. She is now in a wheelchair. She was diagnosed with axaxia (non-specific) then finaally Spino Cerebellar ataxia. Now the neurologist who is treating her says she does not have spino cerebellar ataxia at all. The conclusion Perpherial Neuropathy caused by statin drugs with ataxia secondary (caused by low CoQ10 in the cerebellum). This can possibly be somewhat treated, but the perpherial neuropathy caused by a toxic buildup of statins has probably damaged the nerve axons, and it is unlikely they can regenerate. Do you know the sad part. Her primary care doctor still tells her statin drugs wouldn't have these side effects and wants her to keep taking cholesterol lowering drugs, even though her cholesterol is now at 170. Cholesterol is required to build myelin around the nerves. There is a recent report by Dr. Salvatore DiMauro that says Ataxia can be caused by low levels of CoQ10 in the cerebellum. He will also have a report coming out shortly that will say that Lipitor can make CoQ10 deficient in less than 1 week. You can then put these last two sentences together. You could research CoQ10 and what its use is in the body, and put that together with what cholesterol is used for in the body. You will then see why they are both essential. She was also taking high supplements of calcium for osteoporosis. They (the doctors) never read that you must take magnesium with calcium or it will not help, but only leach the magnesium out of you body. Also the diuretics she was taking also leached magnesium as well as COQ10. (HCTZ). CoQ10 is required for ATP production. Magnesium is required for ATP production. Both of these especially in the brain and particulaly in the cerebellum. ATP is required for dopamine production. Parkinson's patients are low on dopamine. You can connect the dots. Low magnesium will cause elevated cholesterol as well as ataxia. Its sad but she was perfectly healthy before the doctor induced illness. I guess my main point is don't believe every thing you doctor says. They rely on the drug companies for information. They're only human (whether they believe that or not) and they do not know everything. If you research something and don't agree tell them, if they get angry with you and tell you that you don't know what you're talking about because they're a doctor, FIRE THEM. Most people don't even know you can fire a doctor. They are employed by you , plain and simple. They work for YOU. Not the other way around. There is also a report from Sweden of Doctors who were excited that they had found another use for statins and the reason statins worked so well after heart transplants. The statins stop rejections.. In effect they impair your body's immume system. You can find this by looking up DR. John Mercola. Sorry I went on for so long...

     
    Old 06-05-2004, 11:50 AM   #15
    zip2play
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    Re: Cholesterol with High CRP results - Questions

    Gee,

    it wears you out sometimes...

    I think I'm going to take some time off!

     
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