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    Old 06-11-2005, 08:59 PM   #1
    Stumper
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    STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Yes, they actually DO clear arterial plaque. A study by Johns Hopkins University is now showing reductions of plaque formations with as litle as 6 months use of Statins! Try THAT against any supplement !
    Keep in mind that Johns Hopkins is the *name when it comes to medical research. There are absolutely NO claims, just facts.

    Here is the study:

    http://www.jhu.***/~gazette/2004/06dec04/06mri.html

    My doc was right all along when he told me Statins will clean out arteries.

    Last edited by Stumper; 06-11-2005 at 09:25 PM.

     
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    Old 06-12-2005, 05:33 AM   #2
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Stumper,

    If that were really true, then why are there still so many angioplasties and bypass surgeries performed every year, even with so many millions of people taking these drugs?

    But never mind the claims. Just look at the facts. Statins are all about making money, big money. These drugs are dealt to the public by the masses with the rhetoric of preventing early death from cardiovascular disease. Yet, the absolute number of deaths from CVD, 750,000 deaths per year, has not changed for the last 25 years.
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    Old 06-12-2005, 06:08 AM   #3
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ARIZONA73
    Stumper,

    If that were really true, then why are there still so many angioplasties and bypass surgeries performed every year, even with so many millions of people taking these drugs?

    But never mind the claims. Just look at the facts. Statins are all about making money, big money. These drugs are dealt to the public by the masses with the rhetoric of preventing early death from cardiovascular disease. Yet, the absolute number of deaths from CVD, 750,000 deaths per year, has not changed for the last 25 years.

    Arizona,

    You're 100% right. There is still plenty of CVD in this country, despite cholesterol levels going lower and lower. I stand by my claim that high-cholesterol per-se is NOT the primary cause of atherosclerosis. It is a combination of inflammation and the inflammatory response, plus some other factors (like ACAT2...) that science is just beginning to get a handle on.

    Of course very high or very low cholesterol are probably bad. So those with very high cholesterol have either lifestyle changes, statins, or supplements to work with to get their numbers down.

    Some can take the drugs successfully, but a lot can't (and I mean a lot more than the 1-2% that are reported by the FDA or the pharmaceuticals).

    For those who can, they lower cholesterol very effectively. For those who can't there are only supplements and lifestyle changes. I think that within our lifetime, other drugs will come on the market that target the primary cause of CHD - and it WON'T be high cholesterol.

    There are some who naively believe that they can eat whatever they want, and taking a pill will make it all better. Some see the world in black and white, and can't see the shades of gray in between. Statins are God, and supplements are the Devil... You can't reason with someone like that - save your breath (I have).

    I think that the lifestyle changes are probably as important if not more so than anything else you can do to help your health - especially cutting back on fats, and getting regular exercise and maintaining a normal weight.

    You obviously have found the winning formulae - your numbers are always fantastic when you post them.

    Keep on taking the supplements you've been. I take most of them also.


    HubbleRules



     
    Old 06-12-2005, 06:13 AM   #4
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Stumper,
    Thank you very much, that study is very, how shall I say, HEARTENING! I look forward to more work from this team.

    Two weak points though:
    1. the sample was small at 29 patients...you do what you can.
    2. (and THIS one is a MAJOR flaw.) They tested for the baseline plaque levels with ho-hum MRI equipment and then tested for 6-month plaque with a super-duper machine made JUST for the purpose. This is very bad science and compares apples with oranges to the extrememe. Is it possible I mis-read the techniqhe?

    Another possible problem is the assumed correlation bettweeen calcium deposits and soft plaque...it may not all be hard and fast (a good pun actually.)

    I remain ever-hopeful though. If you spot any other work in this vein (oh STOP, Lenin!) PLEASE let us know.

    Gee, should I up the Lipitor to 20 or not...I've been stewing over that thought for MONTHS! <typing to self>

    Last edited by Lenin; 06-12-2005 at 06:16 AM.

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 06:31 AM   #5
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lenin
    Stumper,

    Two weak points though:
    1. the sample was small at 29 patients...you do what you can.
    2. (and THIS one is a MAJOR flaw.) They tested for the baseline plaque levels with ho-hum MRI equipment and then tested for 6-month plaque with a super-duper machine made JUST for the purpose. This is very bad science and compares apples with oranges to the extrememe.

    Lenin,

    These 'weak' points are major flaws in the study IMHO, especially point number (2). If they used tests that differ in their ability to measure calcium deponsits when taking the baseline and 6-month measurements, then I don't see how they can make any scientific conclusion regarding calcium deposits at all.

    If statins really do reduce calcium deposition - that is fantastic, and those who can tolerate statins should take comfort in it.

    However, this just seems like one more badly designed study, and I have suspicions about their source of funding. Something has to explain them making such a significant error in study design.

    HubbleRules

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 07:42 AM   #6
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ARIZONA73
    Stumper,

    If that were really true, then why are there still so many angioplasties and bypass surgeries performed every year, even with so many millions of people taking these drugs?

    But never mind the claims. Just look at the facts. Statins are all about making money, big money. These drugs are dealt to the public by the masses with the rhetoric of preventing early death from cardiovascular disease. Yet, the absolute number of deaths from CVD, 750,000 deaths per year, has not changed for the last 25 years.

    Arizona,


    Johns Hopkins deals in facts and I am sure that they will continue their work on Statin research, improving their techniques. Those ARE the facts.

    Can I help it if 750,000 people refused Statins?

    AND if statins are so crippling then why when I went to Walmart yesterday did I see only 1 person in a wheelchair?

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 08:29 AM   #7
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Hubble,

    Here is an interesting excerpt taken from the book "Ascorbate: The Science of Vitamin C":

    "Vitamin E can reverse heart disease. Tocotrienols have been shown to reduce the arterial blockage cause by plaque and arteriosclerosis. In a three year, double-blind clinical study, Dr. Marvin Biernbaum showed that tocotrienols can lead to regression of atherosclerosis. His research group had observed that tocopherols and tocotrienols greatly reduced activity in the platelets and could prevent clots forming. Platelets are small, disc shaped particles in the blood, made in the bone marrow. They are an essential part of clot formation and accumulate in large numbers at the site of an injured blood vessel."

    "Since tocotrienols had been shown to reduce the effects of dietary cholesterol in rats, Biernbaum decided to try them in humans. In 1995, Biernbaum's research group showed that tocotrienols reduce blood vessel blockage. They measured the effects of both gamma-tocotrienol and alpha-tocopherol on carotid atherosclerosis. This study estimated the degree of carotid artery blockage, over 18 months, in 50 patients with cerebrovascular disease. Ultrasound scans of the artery were done at six months, twelve months, and continued yearly."

    "Initially, tocotrienols reversed the disease in a proportion of the patients. The ultrasound measurements revealed improvement in seven of the 25 patients given gamma-tocotrienol, and progression in two. None of the control group of 25 patients improved but 10 showed increased disease and blockage. Blood platelet oxidation decreased in the treatment group after 12 months but the placebo group showed an increase, although it was not significant. Blood levels of LDL (bad cholesterol), HDL (good cholesterol), and triglycerides remained unchanged. This implies that plaques can be reversed independently of the level of blood cholesterol. The effect of the tocotrienols increased with time and, ultimately, the tocotrienols provided benefits in almost all patients. In a later report, 92 percent (23) of the patients in the tocotrienol group stabilized or improved. In the control group, 48 percent (12) of the patients deteriorated and no patient improved."

    "Biernbaum suggests that oxidized cholesterol exists in both stable and mobile pools within an arterial plaque. Tocotrienols prevent oxidation of the cholesterol in the labile pool, and help move it out of the artery wall before it becomes attached to the plaque. He argued that this mechanism would explain the dramatic effects for patients supplemented with tocotrienols, which gave results suggestive of a cure after only six months of treatment. This explanation for the reversal of plaques with tocotrienols depends on their action as local antioxidants. It is consistent with the antioxidant effect described for vitamin C. Indeed, Biernbaum's explanation, that tocotrienols prevent cholesterol molecules sticking in plaque, is similar to the action of vitamin C and lysine proposed by Linus Pauling."
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    Old 06-12-2005, 08:44 AM   #8
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lenin
    2. (and THIS one is a MAJOR flaw.) They tested for the baseline plaque levels with ho-hum MRI equipment and then tested for 6-month plaque with a super-duper machine made JUST for the purpose. This is very bad science and compares apples with oranges to the extrememe. Is it possible I mis-read the techniqhe?
    I think that you misread the article. They used a standard MRI scanner for all tests. In order to get better results, throughout all scans, they used extra coil rings and an antenna inserted through the nose into the esophagus.

    The study results are remarkable and provide doctors with a method of following the progress of their CVD patients, in order to determine the effectiveness of CVD treatment.

    I do wonder how many doctors will be able to use expensive MRI scans to check their patients progress. I wonder how many insurance companies will approve it, and if Medicare will approve it.

    Personally, I can't take statins because of their negative impact on my heart's rhythm.

     
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    Old 06-12-2005, 09:02 AM   #9
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    There was another study mentioned in a major business newspaper (WSJ) last Friday that showed statins do not reduce the calcium deposits in heart valves, a condition called aortic stenosis.

    "The results, which come as a surprise, as doctors had expected statins would work in this setting. But the finding probably won't have a major impact in our current clinical practice because physicians usually don't prescribe statins to specifically treat the valve problem..."

    Elsewhere in the article (sorry there is no link):
    Aortic stenosis shares many characteristics with atheroscleroisis, a far more common and worrisome disease in which the body's arteries become clogged. Because a number of studies have shown that statins halt the progression of atherosclerosis, doctors had expected they would have a beneficial effect on aortic stenosis as well."

    The study was done on 155 patients diagnosed with aortic stenosis over a two-year period. 77 were given high doses of Lipitor and their levels of LDL decreaed by 53 percent, but the progression of their aortic stenosis was the same as the ones given the placebo.

    Just a little more information in the confusing world of statins.

    jane

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 09:42 AM   #10
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stumper
    Arizona,


    Johns Hopkins deals in facts and I am sure that they will continue their work on Statin research, improving their techniques. Those ARE the facts.

    Can I help it if 750,000 people refused Statins?

    AND if statins are so crippling then why when I went to Walmart yesterday did I see only 1 person in a wheelchair?
    I understand U loving your Statins as they have taken your numbers down, plus SO FAR, U haven't had any side effects, but, can't quite figure out the relationship between that and a person in a wheelchair??? Maybe that person had some disease not even related to a Statin...

    My husband was never in a wheelchair, but when on Statins, sure had one heck of a time walking, as he was in constant pain, and felt like he was walking on golfballs. If U can take Statins and feel GREAT, more power to ya, but for all those folks out there, some we never even know about, have to look for an alternative if they can't handle them.

    I don't care how many studies are done, or by whom they are done, the fact still remains, SOME folks just can't handle them, and rather then live as a cripple, or with severe pain, they choose to NOT take them. If I had 10 years to live as a cripple, but 5 to live an active life, I will take the five, at least I can enjoy them. Like they say, what works for one, doesn't work for all.

    Have a nice day....

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 10:02 AM   #11
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    BTW, forgot to mention, hubby was given a handicap sticker by his dr. due to the fact he couldn't walk very far the last 2 yrs. on Statins. Since being off Statins, the sticker in now in the glove compartment of his truck, and his walking ability is much better........

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 10:46 AM   #12
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    JJ,

    Anyone who cavalierly dismisses 750,000 CHD deaths per year with a comment like "Can I help it if 750,000 people refused statins" has a reasoning process that I can't even begin to fathom.

    It must really be true - statins DO have a far greater impact on cognitive ability than we were lead to believe!

    I would venture to guess that a large proportion of those 750,000 were on statins. Lenin himself admitted he was on statins for several years before he required surgical intervention for coronary blockage.

    Someone who also makes a totally non-scientific observation about the number of people in wheel chairs at a big-box store - and uses that to imply that statins are therefore safe - and in the next breath mentions the
    criticality of scientific evidence and clinical studies in determining whether statins or supplements are best, is engaging in an exercise in text-book illogic of the highest order.

    Nonetheless, I find those posts entertaining (they're so silly).

    Don't let it get under your skin - it certainly isn't worth it.

    HubbleRules

    Last edited by HubbleRules; 06-12-2005 at 10:53 AM.

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 11:03 AM   #13
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Hubble...I don't let it get under my skin, I just get a weeeee bit confused at some of the comments.....

    Here is a small piece from an article I read that was done at Stanford:
    **************************************** *******
    It doesn’t require a degree from Stanford or any other medical school – any lay person can solve the Plumber’s riddle. The arteries, veins and capillaries in our body are a pipeline that is 60,000 miles long. But this pipeline fails in 90% of the cases at one specific spot: The coronary arteries, with the length of only one billionth of the total vascular pipeline. If bad water quality - e.g. high cholesterol - would cause damage to this pipeline, it would clog everywhere, not just at one spot. Obviously, elevated cholesterol can not be the cause of coronary artery disease.
    **************************************** ***********

    Hope U are having a really great day, but I am defintley ready to become a "Beach Bum", man it is sooooo hot and humid here. Gee, first we are cooped up with winter and the heat on, now cooped up with the AC, what happened to spring?......

    Oh well, off to get at least some wash done, as I sure am NOT going outside to do any yard work, I'll fall over. Stay cool....

     
    Old 06-12-2005, 11:38 AM   #14
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JJ
    Hubble...I don't let it get under my skin, I just get a weeeee bit confused at some of the comments.....

    Here is a small piece from an article I read that was done at Stanford:
    **************************************** *******
    It doesn’t require a degree from Stanford or any other medical school – any lay person can solve the Plumber’s riddle. The arteries, veins and capillaries in our body are a pipeline that is 60,000 miles long. But this pipeline fails in 90% of the cases at one specific spot: The coronary arteries, with the length of only one billionth of the total vascular pipeline. If bad water quality - e.g. high cholesterol - would cause damage to this pipeline, it would clog everywhere, not just at one spot. Obviously, elevated cholesterol can not be the cause of coronary artery disease.
    **************************************** ***********

    Hope U are having a really great day, but I am defintley ready to become a "Beach Bum", man it is sooooo hot and humid here. Gee, first we are cooped up with winter and the heat on, now cooped up with the AC, what happened to spring?......

    Oh well, off to get at least some wash done, as I sure am NOT going outside to do any yard work, I'll fall over. Stay cool....

    JJ,

    I jogged 3 miles in this heat and humidity earlier today - now I'm rewarding myself with a nice icy-cold beer!!!

    I find the logic in the article you quote above appealing. I've often wondered the same myself about why cholesterol choses to bind to plaques in only specific locations in the vascular system.

    Maybe one more beer and I'll be ready to ponder this mystery of the unverse!!

    Cheers!

    HubbleRules



     
    Old 06-12-2005, 12:07 PM   #15
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    Re: STATINS are absolutely wonderful !!

    Well God bless U for jogging in this heat, your a better MAN then I am. LOL

    See, the heat is getting to me already. According to this article, they blame it more on vitamin deficiencies. I couldn't post the entire thing, way too long, but do a web search using the words....do statins clean arteries, and U will find alot of different things. This particular study is under Dr. Rath, although I found quite a few others.

    Looks like rain here any minute, don't know if it will do us any good, or make it more humid. I don't drink, but hey, have a beer for me, I'll stick to my iced tea...

     
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