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    Old 12-13-2006, 08:15 AM   #1
    liverock
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    Pomegranate and Carotid Artery Stenosis

    This study involving using pomegranate juice has been out for 2 years now. I believe the PJ dosage was 8ozs per day and both groups continued to take their statins and hypertensives throughout.

    Anybody tried it, and would like to share their thoughts?

    [url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=A bstractPlus&list_uids=15158307&query_hl= 3&itool=pubmed_docsum[/url]

    Last edited by Administrator; 02-28-2007 at 05:44 AM. Reason: Do not copy and paste others' info

     
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    Old 12-14-2006, 04:21 AM   #2
    Lenin
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    Re: Pomegranate and Carotid Artery Stenosis

    "by UP TO???"

    What kind of scientific study reports results this way.
    BY UP TO is phraseology reserved for hucksters.

    What was the average, or median carotid blockage reduction in this small sample? BY UP TO has no scientific meaning at all

    Also, studies on 10 people almost never have statistical merit.

    In spite of where it was published, this sounds an awful lot like an ad by the POMEGRANATE BOARD...if such a thing exists.

    Hmmm, Rambam Medical is in Haifa, Israel. Gee, I wonder where Pomegranates come from?

    Last edited by Lenin; 12-14-2006 at 04:25 AM.

     
    Old 12-14-2006, 11:54 AM   #3
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    Re: Pomegranate and Carotid Artery Stenosis

    Gee ... you are being a bit harsh, aren't you Lenin. All we can see is the abstract, which is only a brief summary of the findings. It made sense to me. And the supporting references, which were published in reputable medical journals, look ok. And I can accept that pomegranates could contain powerful anti-oxidants, like red wine. As we all know, the promotion of red wine in the fight against heart disease has now reached the mainstream. So what is wrong with pomegranates?
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    Old 12-15-2006, 06:07 AM   #4
    Lenin
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    Re: Pomegranate and Carotid Artery Stenosis

    Quote:
    Gee ... you are being a bit harsh, aren't you Lenin.
    I don't think so Mark. We have grown so used to nonsense phrases in advertising like "Lose up to 20 pounds in 20 days" and "earn UP TO $150,000 the first year in the comfort of your HOME!"

    So any drug (or juice) with the claims of UP TO benefits must be taken in the same context. UP TO means the range from minus infinity through zero to that maximum amount which might be achieved by a single person in the test group.

    How about if the ad said: "Five thousand people took Lipitor every day for a year and found an INCREASE in muscle strength of UP TO 200% when they were tested regularly with a bench press machine."
    Would you judge that to be a fair estimate, to be taken seriously.
    Or should such a statement be taken for what it is: blatant FRAUD?
    It IS, after all, probably true that such a person would exist in a sample of 5000...but so WHAT!

    Statistics are reported as mean or median values. GOOD statistics also incorporate terms for range or likely accuracy. Advertisning Statistics rely on "UP TO," and "AS MUCH AS"...terms employed to HIDE information rather than REVEAL it.

    <I'm going to go to the gym soon and do several sets of curls. I am CERTAIN that I will gain AS MUCH AS an inch in my biceps circumference by tonight!:.> blob_fire

    Anti-Oxidants: When I SEE a study that proves "anti-oxidants," <whatever they are...the term is bandied about a lot...WITHOUT definition> are good for anything other than putting out a kichen fire with CO2, then I'll believe the claims. Until then they remain "vitamin hype" in my estimation.

    And UNLIKE red wine, pomegranate contains no alcohol...a BIG, BIG, BIG difference...both being RED doesn't count. They may blather all they want about fruit juices and their benefits but it is ALCOHOL that has the proven cardiac benefits.

    Last edited by Administrator; 02-28-2007 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Do not copy and paste others' info

     
    Old 12-15-2006, 09:59 AM   #5
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    Re: Pomegranate and Carotid Artery Stenosis

    The statement in the abstract that "up to 30% reduction in the carotid artery thickness' is quite justified.
    The main study,as opposed to the abstract, showed that reductions where measured at;

    3 months with a mean 13% reduction
    6 months with a mean 22% reduction
    9 months with a mean 26% reduction
    12 months with a mean 30% reduction

    The study also showed that mean carotid artery blood flow improved to 16%,20%,31% and 44% in these time periods.

    Researchers from respected universities and research facilities from as far afield as Spain,Germany, Korea and Japan have carried out successful in vitro studies with this fruit on heart disease and prostate cancer.

    As far as I know none of these countries are noted as pomegranate growers(perhaps the POM MAFIA extends further than is thought ).

    It should be noted that the juice used in this study was 1oz doses of concentrated pomegranate juice equivelant to the juice of 12 pomegranates per oz.

    Heres what ***** has to say about pom research:

    [url]http://onhealth.*****.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=63996[/url]

    Last edited by Administrator; 02-28-2007 at 05:41 AM. Reason: Do not copy and paste others' info

     
    Old 12-16-2006, 07:40 AM   #6
    Lenin
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    Re: Pomegranate and Carotid Artery Stenosis

    TWELVE pomegranates a day...dear LORD!

    Anyhoo,

    maybe THIS will work well:


    "Anti-oxidant" is an overused buzz- word to sell sketchy "cures

    ARE KNOWN presupposes the hypotheses...they are NOT known, only imagined. WHICH antioxidant has been shown to repair DNA and reverse cancer risk?

    I will say thank you for the amplification of the "UP TO 30%" from the full report...that makes a lot more sense and I didn't have anything but the abstact available to me. But how and what did they extract from the pomegranates to make one ounce out of 12 pomegranates? That's CERTAINLY not juice unless those Israeli poms are AWFULLY dry!


    I STILL hold very strongly that "anti-oxidant" is just so much clap-trap hype to get one into the health food store with wallets wide open. A REAL antioxidant that would stop all oxidation would kill you faster than being hit mid-chest with a cruise missile.
    A loose but more valid definition of antioxidant would of course be any reducing agent...and one of the best and commonest of these is probably SUGAR!

    Summary:
    I do NOT trust these results...they will have to be shown in another confirmative test. The claim of 30% mean plaque reduction in a year is STARTLING and to make it with a study of 19 prople (10 on juice) in an area known for pomegranate production is just too IFFY.

    IF the results are true and confirmable, pomegranates will become the most sought after item on the planet...maybe second to diamonds!
    IF there is sufficient reason to believe the possibility, there should be no shortage of researchers to put together a one year double blinded study with a few thousand people in a trustworthy place like Harvard, Johns Hopkins, the Cleveland Clinic, or the Mayo Clinic.

    (Another ugly wrinkle was the 9 non-pomegranate users...they increased in mean plaque by 9% IN A YEAR ...my God, they will all be dead very soon!...something fishy here!)

    Last edited by Administrator; 02-28-2007 at 05:42 AM. Reason: Do not copy and paste others' info

     
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