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    Old 08-06-2002, 11:48 AM   #1
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    Wink Nobody has ever died from high cholesterol

    As a newbie here, I am shocked and saddened to see the degree of fear over high cholesterol.


    I've read this author's entire book, The Cholesterol Myths by Uffe Ravnskov, MD, PhD. It completely dispells the myth that normal, human substance produced by our own bodies is bad for us. It dispells many myths about cholesterol and the diet-heart sham.

    Half of our nation's heart attack victims had low cholesterol! Millions of healthy people make it past the age of 85 or 90 with high cholesterol. If you're obsessed with your cholesterol and diet, go to the library and read the actual studies. You will forget about all this nonsense and stop taking drugs and diets that could be taking years off your life!




    [This message has been edited by moderator2 (edited 08-06-2002).]

     
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    Old 08-06-2002, 12:51 PM   #2
    Gooba
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    Have you had a coronary event? Have you undergone the angiograms? Come back and quote that stuff when you go through that.It is real easy to spout that when you have nothing on the line.

     
    Old 08-06-2002, 01:53 PM   #3
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    Again.

    I refer you to the facts.
    Do we have any less compassion for those coronary victims with low cholesterol? Absolutely not. Is it any less scary to have a heart attack if your cholesterol is low? Absolutely not..

    No doubt it is VERY sad and scary to experience a coronary event, regardless of your cholesterol level. Let's not lose site of the facts. Over half our nation's heart attack victims have LOW CHOLESTEROL.

    If I were a heart patient, I would be angry that enough of our medical doctors aren't looking for it's true cause. Cholesterol lowering drugs have saved few, if any lives. As a non-coronary event patient, I'm just as angry.

    Had it not been for our obsession with the wrong cause, perhaps we'd be finding a real cure.

     
    Old 08-06-2002, 03:03 PM   #4
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    I am aware of another rather interesting theory about cholesterol which I believe deserves some serious thought. The theory goes that cholesterol in and of itself is harmless as it is produced by the body, and that one of its functions, among other things, is to serve as an antioxidant. It is manufactured in the body as protection against oxidative damage by free radicals and that in the process of providing that protection cholesterol is converted into its oxidized form, which is harmful to the blood vessels. However, if sufficient quantities of antioxidants are provided, such as selenium, vitamins E,C,and A, then any damage resulting from the oxidized cholesterol will be greatly minimized. This is because the supplemental antioxidants will play their part in neutralizing the free radicals and the damaging effects of oxidized cholesterol will be kept to a minimum.
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    Old 08-06-2002, 03:53 PM   #5
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    As a non coronary person,you have no idea.You have to understand you can still play with this and theorize all you want.You have time.Those of us that have had the event do not have that luxury.We already have the damage and survived.We are living it each and every day as a fact of life.You fortunately are not.If you get a heart attack and survive,your outlook changes on alot of things.I guarantee you will not have the same attitude on this,if you are as inteeligent as I suspect you should be.
    Angry? Why should I be angry.I know that my lifestyle as well as a number of other factors caused my heart attacks.All I am concenred about now is surviving.Not having any more.I do look on the bright side,I am one of the 1/3 of people who survive their first heart attack.Which part of that statistic are you?

     
    Old 08-06-2002, 04:53 PM   #6
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    Gooba, I am new to this message board and have virtually no knowledge of what your health status is other than the fact that you apparently have had a heart attack. About the only thing that is familiar to me is the city in which you live. Missoula is probably one of the most beautiful places to live, having been there 4 times myself. Yes, what I have presented is a theory, but one which is shared by others who are involved in the field of nutrition as well as medicine. So, it is simply not something that I invented by myself. However, I do believe that supplementing with high levels of antioxidants are essential to maintaining an optimum level of health and well being. And I believe that they are especially important for people with existing health problems, such as heart disease.
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    Old 08-06-2002, 05:42 PM   #7
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    I have to weigh in here with Gooba.I am another person that has had 2 heart attacks almost 8 years ago.I had a blockage in the LAD and lost a portion of my lower heart muscle.My CC showed some of my arteries had 60-65% blockages.I have been treated with statins and other medication as well as diet and exercise.I just went in and had another CC and they found another artery that had a 95% blockage.An angioplasty and stent was put in.The arteries that were blocked earlier had not progressed.
    The reason I gave the background is because I am talking from personal experience.I cannot play around with this,neither can Gooba or anyone else who has the disease.I can tell you that I did not even think about statistics,nor do I really care why it happened in the first place.All I care about is surviving.How do I keep this from progressing.The things that Mr truthseeker is talking about is all well and good when it is happening to someone else.It changes once you go through the trauma.You face your own mortality.
    It is real easy to find these articles and studies and statistics when there is nothing wrong with you and say how mad we should get at the medical establishment and how they are tricking us.Have the heart attack and if you survive tell me which statistics,studies etc you thought about.
    truthseeker,you want truth and facts?Try this on for size.
    When you have a heart attack,you do not care about any cholesterol level,nor do you care about the studies that show that people who have low cholesterol have them also.All you care about is YOUR heart attack.

    All of these studies are to help people who have not had a heart attack,as well as the survivors.That is the whole purpose.

    You are DEAD wrong that cholesterol lowering drugs have saved few if any lives.There is too much research out there that shows it saves ALOT of lives.Guess what?Alot of that data is from people who have had a heart attack,or have CAD without an event.

    In the end truthseeker,when you go through some of what I have gone through,then we can talk.You can tell me your outlook and what you believe then.

    Arizona73,latest studies indicate that the addition of some antioxidants in combination with a statin may reduce the effectiveness of the statin.And that is very important for people with CAD.

     
    Old 08-06-2002, 06:33 PM   #8
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    TB, if you are currently taking a statin drug, and you feel perfectly satisfied that you are indeed benefiting from this drug, and that you are feeling fine and are not experiencing any serious side effects, by all means go ahead and take it. All I am saying is that there ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES out there for a great many people who are taking these drugs. Maybe you are one of the exceptions, so you have no other option. But bear in mind that these drugs carry considerable risks. For instance, an article published in the Journal of the American Medical Association summarized the carcinogenicity studies of cholesterol lowering drugs and clearly demonstrated that the risk of carcinogenicity for these drugs is FAR ABOVE recently issued FDA guidelines. In any case, I wish you well!
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    Old 08-07-2002, 05:51 AM   #9
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    arizona73,I am also taking the statin.I realize as I am sure TB does,that there are alternatives out there.Unfortunately for people who have CAD and have survived a heart attack,those alternatives are not realistic for us.We do not have the luxury as you do to experiment.I am where you do not want to be.If you try some alternative treatment and it does not work you can try something else because your arteries are not restricted as far as you know.The old saying ignorance is bliss applies here.All of this discussion is about keeping those of you from going through what only a couple of people have gone through.We are on the other side of the line.Once you cross that line,your options drop dramatically.You now know that you have the disease and you know how far it has progressed.You are no longer ignorant about your condition.You can't afford to play around with this anymore.You now look at these drugs and treatments in a new light.You have to now weigh the benefits versus the risk factors.Instead of the other way around as most of you do.

    I do have a question about all of this alternative treatment,diet,etc that is going around by a few.
    How many people who have blockages in their arteries that has been confirmed through an angiogram,who followed whatever treatment option,diet,had their blockages reduced over a period of time?

    How many people who have had an angioplasty,stent,CABG,who followed any of those treatments,diet,not had restenosis,and what reduction of occlusion of the coronary arteries was seen?

     
    Old 08-07-2002, 06:13 AM   #10
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    Not too long ago the medical field was using leeches and performing labotomies as these practices were considered the cutting edge in medicine at the time.

    My point is that medicine is constantly evolving and what seems cutting edge today will be outdated and maybe even seem barbaric in the future. Statins may kill us all and 50 years from now people will be amazed that we allowed the medical community to poison us in this way. BUT.....we live in the here and now, not in the future. I agree with every post in this thread.....I believe that we need to be careful with these powerful drugs we're being prescribed and that alternatives should be considered or at least researched. I also agree that some people either don't have that option or prefer to have total faith in their doctors. No one has all the answers, that's for sure.

    My dad had his first bypass surgery in his early 60's. He was also diabetic. He took more pills in one day than I take in a month, but he lived to be 82 despite it all. I think the real risk is for younger people like myself. I'm 38, diabetic and on glucophage and also taking statins as well as Nexium for my stomach. The younger people, I belive, will be the real guinea pigs for these drugs.

     
    Old 08-07-2002, 08:09 AM   #11
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    I've heard the phrase a couple of times, 'those of us with real heart issues, can't play around with this topic'. Those who are non-CHD participants have time to theorize and speculate all we want? Not neccessarily true. Heart attacks are sudden killers..

    I think the assumption is being made that if you're taking statins by a doctor's recommendation, you are not playing around. There is a reason they call doctor's practice a practice. It is precisely that, just a practice. As for Statins, I am simply going by what the statistics say. While it's true that statistics show coronary events decline with use of statins, the longer term studies also show that there is no decrease in death rate. That, ofcourse, includes death from non-heart related diseases.

    We would all like to be told that our doctors are making us well, but the truth is they are only practicing what they've learned...countless CHD patients go back to the hospital years after statin treatment or whatever other medications were available beforehand..If their effectiveness were a certaintly, it would make sense to call anything else, 'playing around'.

    In essence, we are ALL just playing around. It is inaccurate or unfair to accuse non-CHD participants less serious or 'playing around'. We are just as concerned about our health as anyone. While it might be true that I would sing a different tune if I suffered a heart attack, that would not make my opinion any better. If anything, perhaps, less objective, because I would be acting out of emotion and fear.

     
    Old 08-07-2002, 09:27 AM   #12
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    You are correct that heart attacks are sudden killers at least for 2/3 of the people who get one.
    Let me see if I can clarify things a bit.You mentioned that you got a bit scared when you found out you had high cholesterol.You researched the subject and here are the results of your research.You have decided not to worry about it.That,of course is up to you.I am not saying if it is right or wrong.
    Now,you need to take the next step.Go through the stress/echo test,and if need be the thallium stress test,and ultimately the cardiac catherization if the other tests show a reduced blood flow to your heart.See what the condition of your coronary arteries are.If they detect a reduction in blood flow to your heart,what then?Are you still going to say you do not care about cholesterol?If they go in and do the cardiac catherization,and do an angioplasty or a stent,which statistics or study are you going to pay attention to?You are now at the line that has been mentioned.One main statistic you have to pay attention to now,is that if an angioplasty was done you have a 30-45% chance of restenosis.If a stent was inserted you have a 20-30% chance of restenosis.Now,the doctor prescribes a statin,as well as a blood thinner to help keep your arteries open.Are you going to disregard his recommendation?
    You are correct that he is practicing.There are no absolutes but here is the dilema.he is giving you a course of action that the majority of the patients have shown improvement on.There are hard facts and statistics if you want to use them.Or,do you disregard his recommendation and try all of the other alternative treatments,diet that is not proven.Do you have the time to try that with the knowledge of the condition of your coronary arteries?

     
    Old 08-07-2002, 09:35 AM   #13
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    Gooba,

    In answer to your question. If I found I had a problem with my arteries, it wouldn't change my opinion about cholesterol one iota. Cholesterol is not what causes arterial clogging.. 100's of studies have proven that men with low cholesterol at very old age, have same amount of plaque build up as those with high..Especially evident in Japanese men, who past age 80 have higher plaque buildup and low cholesterol! Results vary over all parts of the world..No correlation between cholesterol, arterial-plaque and heart disease..

    I might decide to take the statin treatment, however, because I am aware of it's other benefits.
    For now, I exercise vigorously 30 minutes daily and experience no pain or discomfort. I have no heart problems in the family. I will play the odds, which according to the cholesterol-hounds themselves, is still pretty good at, 3 in 100 over the next 10 years.



     
    Old 08-07-2002, 10:49 AM   #14
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    I feel like the oddball - I've had angiplasty (no heart attack) and I'm doing all I can to not take statins.

    Prior to my procedure, my total cholesterol was 320. HOWEVER, my trigs were 600 and HDL 33!! I had been on a low-fat (high sugar / carb) diet for 8 years. My doctors never mentioned the trigs and HDL as a risk factor. After this, I went to a low/complex carb diet, ADDED some good fat and started to excercise.

    Without meds, my cholesterol was down to 249. I lost 50 lbs. More significant, but never mentioned by my doc, my trigs went down to 108 and HDL up to 48. I was told to take more Lipitor!

    I'm a 'statin-phobic'. I had pains and aggression with the Lipitor and stopped it. He's a good doc and is working with me. I went on Niaspan as a precaution (my request) and I 'experiment' with:

    Red Wine
    Aspirin
    Megadose Vitamin-C and Lysine and various other supplements

    So far so good. It's stinks having CHD but it could be worse.

     
    Old 08-07-2002, 12:25 PM   #15
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    Looneyjm,do not feel like the oddball.Your post is exactly what I mean.Your angioplasty let you know what condition your coronary arteries were in.You now have that knowledge and are making an informed decision.You already know that you bought time and by your post that you are doing what you can to keep from going through that again.What you have to say carries credence.I hope you find a way to keep off statins if that is what you want.
    How long did your Dr keep you on Plavix?


    Did your EF improve after the angioplasty?

     
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