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    Old 10-25-2006, 03:54 AM   #1
    Munroe
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    "Natural Cures"

    I applaud ttwarrior1 (see post below) for a comprehensive guide to natural remedies for hypertension. There's surely something here that can help almost anyone.

    However, you could easily make a full-time profession, and eventually go broke, if you tried to follow all of this. A similar thing happened when I was into supplements. You start taking one thing and then you read about the next "greatest" thing, and before long you're buying supplements to supplement the supplements...

    Natural health in general follows this tendency. If it sounds like I'm mocking natural or alternative health I'm not. I've written in this forum before about the over-reliance on medication. Blood pressure drugs are problematic at best and dangerous at worst. You should avoid them if at all possible and too many people give in way too easily out of fear and doctor's persuasion.

    But treating yourself naturally has its own set of frustrations. I think the best thing you can do is use common sense and live as healthy as possible. Then you've got most of the bases covered. Don't go for the expensive herbs or supplements or the exotic disciplines unless you're really inclined that way. Most of the more "alternative" stuff is completely unproven.

    Breathing therapy is an exception and is winning solid medical credentials. But I don't think yoga style breathing is the way to go for the average person. It takes a lot of learning and you have to be a real devotee to do it correctly. My own opinion is that it may even be harmful when done the wrong way.

    There are tested and proven breathing programs designed specifically to lower blood pressure. It's the only natural treatment that conclusively made a difference for me. I tried Reserperate with some success but had my major breakthrough with the Breatheasy system. I vouch for both of them and any similar techniques I may not know about.

     
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    Old 10-25-2006, 11:01 AM   #2
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    Re: "Natural Cures"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Munroe
    Blood pressure drugs are problematic at best and dangerous at worst. You should avoid them if at all possible and too many people give in way too easily out of fear and doctor's persuasion.
    Many of the blood pressure drugs, that the Medical industry has created, are miraculous. They are truly advanced medical breakthroughs developed through decades of research. The drugs improve the quality of life, and prolong the lives of millions of patients, including myself. In my case, it wasn't just these great blood pressure medications which helped me. The documentation, and clinical research, of why these drugs work, helped me to understand my blood pressure problems, and make effective changes to my lifestyle and environment.

    Which classes of blood pressure drugs do you consider the most problematic and dangerous?
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    Old 10-26-2006, 06:10 AM   #3
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    Re: "Natural Cures"

    To reply to beerzoids, it was not my intention to offend anyone taking medications. My wife takes bp meds (but has problems with them). I've been lucky enough to be able to avoid them but for many people they are no doubt a lifesaver.
    I take drugs for other medical purposes so it's not as if I'm anti-medicine. But I stand by my statement: drugs should always be avoided when possible. Yes, advances have been made but every drug has side effects. Many of these don't even appear until years down the road. New "miracle" drugs that are free of all consequences are an illusion.
    This doesn't mean they shouldn't be used, but let's be real about it.

    Blood pressure drugs which can be dangerous are beta-blockers. They're being withdrawn in the UK because of new findings that they're not only not as effective as previously believed but they are also more likely to lead to strokes and diabetes (when compared to other bp drugs).
    Also, diuretics can be dangerous. I know someone who use of moduret resulted in gout.
    There's no question that just about every drug can be dangerous. That's why they have to be monitored carefully. Luckily, many people tolerate them very well and get a lot of benefits. For others it's a different story.

     
    Old 10-26-2006, 07:46 AM   #4
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    Re: "Natural Cures"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Munroe
    To reply to beerzoids, it was not my intention to offend anyone taking medications.
    None of your comments were offensive.

    Quote:
    But I stand by my statement: drugs should always be avoided when possible.
    Most people, including myself, agree with that statement. Even with all of my health problems, I have been able to significantly reduce my drug load through research, trial and error and changes to my diet, lifestyle and environment.

    If you would re-read my statement, I was referring to your statement: "Blood pressure drugs are problematic at best and dangerous at worst. You should avoid them if at all possible and too many people give in way too easily out of fear and doctor's persuasion." You were condemning ALL blood pressure medications. That is why I asked you to further clarify your opinion by stating the classes of blood pressure medications you were condemning.

    Quote:
    Blood pressure drugs which can be dangerous are beta-blockers. They're being withdrawn in the UK because of new findings that they're not only not as effective as previously believed but they are also more likely to lead to strokes and diabetes (when compared to other bp drugs).
    Are you sure that all Beta Blockers are being withdrawn in the UK? Beta Blockers are very important in the treatment of heart failure.

    Beta Blockers were invented in the 1950's. Newer medicines to treat high blood pressure, like Ace Inhibitors, were invented in the 1970's.

    Quote:
    Also, diuretics can be dangerous. I know someone who use of moduret resulted in gout.
    But..... there is a big difference between saying that ALL diuretics, or ALL blood pressure medications should be avoided, and saying that someone you know had a problem with Moduret. Before I would condemn ALL diuretics, I would first want to know the dosage of Moduret, and was he also taking any other types of medicines or illegal drugs, and was he following the dosage instructions.

    You are against Beta Blockers and Diuretics. How do you feel about Ace Inhibitors, Calcium Channel Blockers and Angiotensin II Receptor Blockers? Do you feel that all three of these classes of high blood pressure medications are problematic at best and dangerous at worst?
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    Last edited by Machaon; 10-26-2006 at 05:05 PM.

     
    Old 10-29-2006, 03:55 AM   #5
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    Re: "Natural Cures"

    I do get your point, beerzoids. Perhaps my statement is a little too broad. But it's really just a matter of interpretation. It's true that the majority seem to have no problem with ACE inhibitors but there are still a small number who do. There's no denying that every drug is potentially dangerous and, in my opinion, that is problematic.
    But do we really have an argument here? Of course, beta-blockers are still essential in some cases and for some purposes. It's just that they are being curtailed as a mass treatment for high blood pressure. Again, that seems problematic to me.
    I think it comes down to a fine point of difference. I used some absolute terms when maybe things like "can be" would be more appropriate, such as: every drug can be problematic... and dangerous. The real point remains the same.

     
    Old 10-29-2006, 05:58 AM   #6
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    Re: "Natural Cures"

    Let me come down somewhere in the middle of you two.
    <I too gave myself gout with hydrochlorothiazide use<<although the Moduret problem surprised me- it is a potassium sparing and thus uric acid excreting combo>>> >

    I read a medical bio of FDR and to see what horrors one had to live with when afflicted with pernicious hypertension like he was and unable to treat it with anything except barbiturates was truly frightening. His suffering was only finally relieved with a fatal cerebral hemmorhage. If ONLY he had access to simple diuretics or beta blockers we might not have had Truman and the McCarthy witch hunts.

    BUT I think antihypertensives are WAY too overprescribed in a craven attempt to make sure everyone is being medicated and brought into the doctors office as often as possible to generate a steady income stream. The drugs ALL carry a lot of side effect baggage and I really think that for most people the cure is worse than the disease. I think that any group of people if properly studied for 30 years will show far better results with untreated systolics of 140-150 than a comparable group given several of these medications medications for 10,956 days and FEEL a whole lot better too.

    As drug classes and their benefit/risk go, I think that antihypertensives are right down there with the worst of them.

    But for anyone in heart or kidney failure, or BP high enough to cause stroke or threaten an aneurism, they can be the difference between life and death.

    Last edited by Lenin; 10-29-2006 at 06:00 AM.

     
    Old 10-29-2006, 09:06 AM   #7
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    Re: "Natural Cures"

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lenin
    I too gave myself gout with hydrochlorothiazide ...
    Interesting. I get gout like symptoms from 40mg Lasix. I don't with 20mg. I don't take any diuretic anymore. I don't like the fact that they flush out important minerals, can bring on diabetes and could raise the risk of stroke.

    Quote:
    BUT I think antihypertensives are WAY too overprescribed in a craven attempt to make sure everyone is being medicated and brought into the doctors office as often as possible to generate a steady income stream.
    I agree with you. Plus, there are a lot of mediocre, or ineffective doctors. But years of clinical trials have shown significant health improvements from the use of antihypertensives. At the same time, years of elevated blood pressure has proven to cause significant and serious health problems.

    Quote:
    The drugs ALL carry a lot of side effect baggage and I really think that for most people the cure is worse than the disease.
    I disagree. Personally, I feel much better when I am on an Ace Inhibitor and on a Calcium Channel Blocker.

    The majority of people can tolerate the side effects and would rather stay on the medication than risk CAD, or Stroke, or organ failure. Many people get very mild side effects from their medication(s). I'll admit, though, that many people suffer from nasty side effects. What is a doctor to do, withhold treatment?

    Quote:
    I think that any group of people if properly studied for 30 years will show far better results with untreated systolics of 140-150 than a comparable group given several of these medications medications for 10,956 days and FEEL a whole lot better too.
    You're wrong. Thousands of people have been studied over many years, through clinical trials, where half have taken medication, and half have taken placebo. Because of these miracle drugs, like Ace Inhibitors and Calcium Channel Blockers, people are living longer, feeling better and having a better quality of life.

    Quote:
    As drug classes and their benefit/risk go, I think that antihypertensives are right down there with the worst of them.
    I disagree. Many antihypertensives were medical breakthroughs that have really helped people. But...... people have to be on the right classes and have to take them correctly, and have to avoid interactions with other drugs and with food and drinks. We patients have been given the opportunity to improve our health through these great medical discoveries, but that doesn't mean that we will put these medicines to use correctly, for optimum benefit and for minimum side effects.

    Quote:
    But for anyone in heart or kidney failure, or BP high enough to cause stroke or threaten an aneurism, they can be the difference between life and death.
    Even moderate high blood pressure, over time, can result in heart or kidney failure, diabetes, and threaten stroke or aneurism. If someone has moderate high blood pressure and is a gambling man, and that person wants to ignore all of the medical research, he could avoid antihypertensives and chance his health to luck.
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