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    Old 09-21-2007, 08:35 AM   #16
    acp44
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    There is much evidence to suggest that getting all your nutrients from food may not be possible. Studies comparing organic and non-organic produce, for example, not far higher concentrations of important phyto-chemicals in organic produce, which sadly is NOT available for everyone, or in great variation. Much produce is terribly deficient in necessary nutrients due to farming practices, depleted soils, etc.

    In addition, the DASH diet is heavy on fruit, and for people watching their blood sugar (which is related to BP BTW), mega-dosing on fruit is not an option. And sadly, the most potassium-rich fruit are the highest in glycemic load.

    Moreover, if one works and has a busy schedule, it is virtually impossible to eat like this over the long term, as preparing DASH friendly meals requires time that many people simply don't have. If you have to travel a lot on business, eat out, etc. you will have real problems.

    Supplements are exactly that: SUPPLEMENTS. They are not meant to replace food products, but rather fill in the gaps. Sadly, the food we eat today is far less nutritious then what our grandparents grew/harvested/raised/hunted. Supplements, as Weil and others who know this subject better than most argue, are vital to make sure people get ALL the nutrients they need.

    acp

     
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    Old 09-21-2007, 08:41 AM   #17
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    4. Results? Sometimes the bp went down and sometimes it didn't. In other words, supplements didn't consistently control blood pressure.

    Sadly, there is NOTHING that "consistently control's blood pressure," including lifestyle changes and BP meds for that matter. This board is filled with people with "resistant hypertension" whose BP did not respond to diet and/or exercise.

    The key is to find what works for YOU. Maybe its diet and exercise. Maybe its salt reduction. Maybe its eliminating alcohol. Maybe its stress reduction. Maybe its taking SOME supplements and avoiding others. And maybe its meds. There is NO "one size fits all" approach for blood pressure, and unfortunately few doctors or nutritionists for that matter realize this. BP is a very individualistic phenomenon, and treatment needs to be tailored to something that is sometimes very difficult to do: ascertain the CAUSE of someone's BP and go from there.

    acp

     
    Old 09-21-2007, 11:03 AM   #18
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by acp44 View Post
    ...In addition, the DASH diet is heavy on fruit, and for people watching their blood sugar (which is related to BP BTW), mega-dosing on fruit is not an option. And sadly, the most potassium-rich fruit are the highest in glycemic load....
    The above comments may be inaccurate or misleading...For people with caloric needs up to 2200 calories/day, 4 servings of fruit are recommended...or in other words, perhaps a serving with each meal and one as a snack (instead of a cookie or a candy bar)...a serving of fruit can consist of 6 oz of juice or 1/2 c of fresh, frozen, or canned fruit.

    As far as DASH and insulin levels, blood sugar and insulin levels were measured carefully and precisely in the DASH study (8,000+ participants), and the researchers found that those on the DASH diet had no differences in blood sugar or insulin levels as compared to the participants who were eating a typical American diet. Because the carbohydrates in DASH are complex carbohydrates, they are digested slowly causing gradual changes (versus abrupt changes) in blood sugar and insulin. Because of this, the researchers said that there was no reason to be concerned about DASH diet foods posing any kind of insulin-related risk to participants.

    Quote:
    ...Moreover, if one works and has a busy schedule, it is virtually impossible to eat like this over the long term, as preparing DASH friendly meals requires time that many people simply don't have. If you have to travel a lot on business, eat out, etc. you will have real problems.
    Although the above comment may be the opinion of the poster, based on what I've read and based on my experience (and the experience of over 8000 people), this was not a problem. I've found the the deabilitating and/or life threatening side effects of medication were a problem, but not preparing a nutritious diet.

    Quote:
    ....Sadly, the food we eat today is far less nutritious then what our grandparents grew/harvested/raised/hunted. Supplements, as Weil and others who know this subject better than most argue, are vital to make sure people get ALL the nutrients they need.acp
    I would question the accuracy of these statements. However, for the purpose of staying on topic, I will not address them here.

    I would like to point out once again, that Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension (DASH) was the result of a major collaborative study, the diet was developed by a world-class team of doctors and nutritionists, and it has been proven to lower blood-pressure levels, and it is recommended by governmental agencies that study the heart, lungs, blood, and hypertension.

    I would also like to say that the intention of my post, #14, was not to debate the DASH diet, but to point out that large, legitimate, highly regarded research studies were done by the world's leading hypertension specialists and they concluded that there is no proof that supplements work.

    Bethsheba

    Last edited by bethsheba; 09-21-2007 at 11:17 AM.

     
    Old 09-21-2007, 11:13 AM   #19
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by acp44 View Post
    ....Sadly, there is NOTHING that "consistently control's blood pressure,"...
    Results of the DASH study show that the DASH diet consistently lowers blood pressure....it may not lower it enough to forego other lifestyle changes and/or medication, but it consistently lowers blood pressure.

    Quote:
    ...This board is filled with people with "resistant hypertension" whose BP did not respond to diet and/or exercise....
    I disagree with this statement for many reasons, none of which I have the time to address now.

    Bethsheba

     
    Old 09-21-2007, 11:17 AM   #20
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    I would like to point out once again, that Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension (DASH) was the result of a major collaborative study, the diet was developed by a world-class team of doctors and nutritionists, and it has been proven to lower blood-pressure levels, and it is recommended by governmental agencies that study the heart, lungs, blood, and hypertension.

    I would also like to say that the intention of my "oriignal post" was not to debate the DASH diet, but to point out that large, legitimate, high regarded studies were done by the world's leading hypertension specialists and they concluded that there is no proof that supplements work.

    Bethsheba
    "Proven" does not guarantee it will work for everyone, again, as many posts here testify. By all means try it first. But if it fails to work for you, don't get discouraged and conclude that you have no other options. Try and keep an open mind that there may be other options, including supplements and meds.

    I will certainly look at the facts re DASH and insulin. For many people with blood sugar problems, 6-8 servings of grain-based products, regardless of whether they are "whole grain" or not, will elevate their blood sugar.

    Please note that the DASH diet has also been modified recently (or at least this modification is being considered) to include more protein and fewer carbohydrates.

    acp

    Last edited by mod-anon; 09-22-2007 at 12:17 AM. Reason: editing quote

     
    Old 09-22-2007, 05:34 PM   #21
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by acp44 View Post
    ...Please note that the DASH diet has also been modified recently (or at least this modification is being considered) to include more protein and fewer carbohydrates.

    acp
    I addressed modifying the DASH diet in my post,
    "The DASH diet...changes can improve it!!"

    For those who haven't read the post I will simply say that by replacing some of the carbs with protein and monounstaturated fat, the triglycerides will drop, the LDL will rise, and bp will drop even further...all this without supplements!

    Bethsheba

     
    Old 09-22-2007, 06:18 PM   #22
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bethsheba View Post
    I addressed modifying the DASH diet in my post,
    "The DASH diet...changes can improve it!!"

    For those who haven't read the post I will simply say that by replacing some of the carbs with protein and monounstaturated fat, the triglycerides will drop, the LDL will rise, and bp will drop even further...all this without supplements!

    Bethsheba
    Or it may not. 3 months on the DASH diet lowered my BP exactly 4 mm, from high 140s systolic to mid 140s, and there it stayed. The addition of supplements (controlling for everything else) brought it down to the mid 120s-130s, where it remains.

    Happy to be a statistical outlier.

    acp

     
    Old 09-22-2007, 06:19 PM   #23
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    I'll add that anyone with a kidney disease should check with a doctor first before going on the DASH diet. It might not be suitable for people with GFR =<60.

    FG

    Last edited by flowergirl2day; 09-22-2007 at 06:55 PM.

     
    Old 09-22-2007, 06:46 PM   #24
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Let me be perfectly clear (as old Richard Nixon used to say: I SUPPORT the DASH diet. I encourage anyone to go on it. It is probably the healthiest diet there is, and as someone who has worked as a chef, I found it very easy to create recipes from it.

    What did it do for me? I lost weight, felt fantastic, and my already good blood cholesterol improved. It simply did not lower my BP significantly.

    Now why might that have been? I did not use supplements OR drink any alcohol for 5 weeks on the diet, so that was not an issue. But rather, I suspect the following:

    High BP is caused, essentially by three things:
    1. Poor diet/exercise/lifestyle.
    2. Arterial stiffness.
    3. Stress/anxiety

    DASH will work excellently on (1). It MAY affect (2), but that is the toughest cause of high BP to address. It will do little to (3), since nothing about the diet stops epineprhine and adrenalin surges. Stress-reactive BP is a brain-body connection issue in part, and far more complicated then something changing your eating habits can address.

    acp

     
    Old 09-22-2007, 07:08 PM   #25
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    DASH will work excellently on (1). It MAY affect (2), but that is the toughest cause of high BP to address
    It won't work on 2. We need to start a thread about atherosclerosis and hypertension. The tiny tears in the arteries, caused by hypertension, are where all the trouble begins.

     
    Old 09-22-2007, 07:22 PM   #26
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flowergirl2day View Post
    It won't work on 2. We need to start a thread about atherosclerosis and hypertension. The tiny tears in the arteries, caused by hypertension, are where all the trouble begins.
    I agree. Others have raised the issue of causes of BP as opposed to responses. Artery problems are the big kahuna of hypertension. I do think good diet can slow this process, possibly prevent it. But what to do when the damage is done? How to make damaged arteries healthy?

    acp

     
    Old 09-27-2007, 12:52 PM   #27
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Back to the supplements thread: a close of friend of mine who has had BP at 160/100 for years, has been on 5 meds, has tried diet and exercise, etc. has been "experimenting" with a new supplement that appears to affect neurotransmitters...spooky stuff to be sure. He reports that after 5 uses, his BP dropped 20+ points top number, 15+ points bottom number, and stayed there. I am going to subject myself to this as an experiment as well and I will report the results.

    No, I do not encourage this anymore than the late Steve Irwin encouraged people to play with saltwater crocodiles. And yes I am aware of the possible risks. I first heard about this from a doctor with high BP in fact. So I will let all know what happens.

    tamuprof45

     
    Old 09-27-2007, 02:44 PM   #28
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    tamuprof,

    You say you are aware of the risks of using one of these remedies.
    I looked into purchasing a product, consisting of maybe 20 ingredients, guaranteed to reduce blood pressure. This is sold at a reputable health food store, and, of course, is very expensive.
    I had the clerk photocopy the ingredients list and took it to my pharmacist. I too was on BP meds (five) without a satisfactory blood pressure control at the time. Anyway, the pharmacist told me that I could not take it, given the medications I was on. Just like the drugs, herbal products (so called 100% natural, organic, etc.) affect our bodily chemistry, sometimes at the cellular level, and interact with medications. They also have side-effects. You might have a medical condition you might not be aware of and have a very unexpected reaction to this product.
    I would recommend at least checking with your doctor first before using this remedy.
    Did you know that garlic is known to reduce blood pressure? So much so that I was warned today not to overdo it. My friend's hubby, who's eaten a Mediterannean diet all his life, says it's all he uses for blood pressure control. He gets hypotensive and dizzy if he eats too much garlic. I know another guy who brought his BP down by eating a whole head of garlic every day (grrrrr) and was able to get off his BP meds completely. Of course, he has to eat it every day to keep his BP controlled. I opted for garlic supplements. They are also excellent for reducing inflammation.

    flowergirl

    Last edited by flowergirl2day; 09-27-2007 at 02:45 PM.

     
    Old 09-27-2007, 03:11 PM   #29
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by flowergirl2day View Post
    tamuprof,

    You say you are aware of the risks of using one of these remedies.
    I looked into purchasing a product, consisting of maybe 20 ingredients, guaranteed to reduce blood pressure. This is sold at a reputable health food store, and, of course, is very expensive.
    I had the clerk photocopy the ingredients list and took it to my pharmacist. I too was on BP meds (five) without a satisfactory blood pressure control at the time. Anyway, the pharmacist told me that I could not take it, given the medications I was on. Just like the drugs, herbal products (so called 100% natural, organic, etc.) affect our bodily chemistry, sometimes at the cellular level, and interact with medications. They also have side-effects. You might have a medical condition you might not be aware of and have a very unexpected reaction to this product.
    I would recommend at least checking with your doctor first before using this remedy.
    Did you know that garlic is known to reduce blood pressure? So much so that I was warned today not to overdo it. My friend's hubby, who's eaten a Mediterannean diet all his life, says it's all he uses for blood pressure control. He gets hypotensive and dizzy if he eats too much garlic. I know another guy who brought his BP down by eating a whole head of garlic every day (grrrrr) and was able to get off his BP meds completely. Of course, he has to eat it every day to keep his BP controlled. I opted for garlic supplements. They are also excellent for reducing inflammation.

    flowergirl
    Thanks for the concerned reply, but not to worry. I've told my doctor, he knows. I do know from research and from extensive personal experience that these things affect our chemistry. But then again, flaws and quirks and "mistakes" in our chemstry often cause the BP problems to begin with...the sympathetic gets out of balance with the parasympathetic, angiotensin gets messed up re our kidneys, etc. So I see it as (albeit risky) fighting fire with fire to some extent. At the very first notice of anything even remotely amiss, I will cease and desist...I test-drive everything I take meticulously actually.

    As for garlic, its wonderful stuff...I cook with it at almost every meal, and eat the raw stuff in salads and I take capsules to boot. Little to no effect. That doe snot stop me, like you, from recommending it to everyone because it is great stuff, and works on lots of people like your hubby (lucky guy!)


    tamuprof45

     
    Old 09-27-2007, 06:11 PM   #30
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    Re: Any natural supplements I have not tried?

    I am so relieved to hear you checked with your doctor first. Of course, doing your own research prior to using any new drug or product is absolutely essential. The doctors don't know everything and can easily overlook a symptom or prescribe an unsuitable medication.

    Good luck!

     
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