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  • High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

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    Old 06-19-2007, 11:17 AM   #1
    bbrodhead
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    High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    This is a do not SUE me world. If you go to a heart doctor, if he does not prescribe medicine he is AFRAID of being sued. So it is very hard to determine if his medicine is really helping you, or just preventing him from being sued. High blood pressure may be a symptom of hardening of the arteries. Should we take medicine that unclogs our arteries or lowers high blood pressure? I believe high blood pressure is a symptom. Poor circulation is the cause. So it may be better to dialate your arteries to improve blood flow than just give you a "water pill" to lower your blood pressure. Hold your breath for 4 minutes and then tell me if it is not important to get oxygen to circulate. So lowering blood pressure too much may limit oxygen circulation. So some heart medicines that just lower blood pressure also lower oxygen to the brain. I think many elderly have lowered their blood pressure so much they can not think straight! If arteries are compromised and circulation is limited, what is most important - lowering blood pressure to "normal" or having a little higher blood pressure to ensure oxygen gets to your brain?

     
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    Old 06-19-2007, 04:10 PM   #2
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    I was about to post a related question. We hear that high BP "cannot be cured," and I assume that is due to stiffened/clogged arteries.

    OTOH one hears of people who have lowered their high BP through lifestyle, which implies that it was caused by something else (anxiety?) than arterial hardening.

    I find it frustrating when doctors say "Oh yeah BP creeps up with age" and then do NOT bother to find out WHY!!! I have had doctors tell me, "Oh it just happens!!!"

    BS. Doctors should check for the CAUSE, be it (a) arteries; (b) glandular; (c) anxiety; (d) bad diet, or any other.

    Until then, I will take anti-inflammatory supplements for my arteries (and aspirin) as well as stuff like grapefruit pectin that MAY unclog them. I HATE it when BP is discussed as "inevitable" instead of a symptom of something that should be treated.

    acp

     
    Old 06-19-2007, 04:43 PM   #3
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    Well guys all I can tell you is that if your blood pressure consistently runs over 140/90, you increase all sorts of physical problems by ignoring it. If you are relatively young and can lose weight and eat better and it comes down, good for you.

    If you are older and other changes have occurred due to age and losing weight and eating right do NOT bring your pressure down you do yourself a great disservice by ignoring it.

    Everything is a personal choice, and you should be the prime determining factor in you own health care, but to ignore high blood pressure and hope magic formulas will bring it down is not rational.

    Take your pressures at home and if they run high, you have HBP.

     
    Old 06-19-2007, 07:17 PM   #4
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    Acp,

    Quote:
    Until then, I will take anti-inflammatory supplements for my arteries (and aspirin) as well as stuff like grapefruit pectin that MAY unclog them.
    I'll say this: I don't know where I'd be without them!
    My CRP, ESR and a few other elements were very high several months ago. There has been such a huge (gradual) improvement my doctor is totally puzzled. While going over the labwork yesterday, he concluded that the reason for the awesome values MUST be the....ARBs. (!!???) Yeah, right! I was on them for not even a month total. I have never told him about my supplements. Though the BP meds might have contributed, I believe I accomplished this mainly by using my anti-inflammatory supplements.

    Flowergirl

     
    Old 06-20-2007, 05:13 AM   #5
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    Ms,

    You got to the heart of the real issue, here. Amen.

    Bsheba

     
    Old 06-20-2007, 05:32 AM   #6
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bbrodhead View Post
    This is a do not SUE me world. If you go to a heart doctor, if he does not prescribe medicine he is AFRAID of being sued. So it is very hard to determine if his medicine is really helping you, or just preventing him from being sued. High blood pressure may be a symptom of hardening of the arteries. Should we take medicine that unclogs our arteries or lowers high blood pressure? I believe high blood pressure is a symptom. Poor circulation is the cause. So it may be better to dialate your arteries to improve blood flow than just give you a "water pill" to lower your blood pressure. Hold your breath for 4 minutes and then tell me if it is not important to get oxygen to circulate. So lowering blood pressure too much may limit oxygen circulation. So some heart medicines that just lower blood pressure also lower oxygen to the brain. I think many elderly have lowered their blood pressure so much they can not think straight! If arteries are compromised and circulation is limited, what is most important - lowering blood pressure to "normal" or having a little higher blood pressure to ensure oxygen gets to your brain?
    I don't normally hit the QUOTE button for my reply, but your post is SO good that it bears repeating. You hit the nail on the head.
    I have often felt that blood pressure was a RESULT rather than a CAUSE of arterial disease/stiffening/clogging I think the medical profession is FLAT OUT WRONG by implying, as they do, that it is the CAUSE of this most common of vascular ailments. The studies, and lack of same, tend to support my view. In FACT, when the AMA, AHA, CDC assess risk of heart disease, hypertension is counted as the same risk factor WHETHER OR NOT IT IS CONTROLLED. If blood pressure CAUSED heart disease, why wouldn't control of BP mitigate risk?

    As we age, our blood vessels generally stiffen and BP goes up...the rise certainly isn't caused by our hearts getting stronger and stronger with each passing decade, would that it were so. !

    Lowering BP may help the kidneys and allow a person with compromised heart pumping ability to survive longer with less pain and lowering the risk of hemmorhagic STROKE and aneurism rupture, but lowering BP has NOTHING to do with preventing coronary heart disease or lowering its death toll. Though I cannot prove it, I firmly think that even the reverse is true. Loweing BP indeed does provide LESS oxygenated blood and more importantly IMPEDES the formation of collateral arteries which could aid in blood flow around old compromised arteries.

    Thank you bbroadhead for bring this up.

     
    Old 06-20-2007, 08:17 AM   #7
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lenin View Post
    As we age, our blood vessels generally stiffen and BP goes up...the rise certainly isn't caused by our hearts getting stronger and stronger with each passing decade, would that it were so. !.
    The rise in BP, as we age, is primarily due to narrowing within the circulatory system, either caused by a garbage buildup within our veins, arteries and organs; or by our neurohormonal system.

    Blood Pressure can go to unhealthy levels with a weakly beating heart, or a strongly beating heart, if there is narrowing within the circulatory system.

    .
    Quote:
    Lowering BP may help the kidneys and allow a person with compromised heart pumping ability to survive longer with less pain and lowering the risk of hemmorhagic STROKE and aneurism rupture, but lowering BP has NOTHING to do with preventing coronary heart disease or lowering its death toll..
    Lowering the BP also helps prevent damage to the Heart, Liver, Spleen, Thyroid, Eyes, Pancreas, and other organs and glands within the body. So....... if we follow the dots from HIgh Blood Pressure to damage to the Pancreas, which is directly related to causing garbage to form within our circulatory system, organs and glands; then we find a major link between HBP and CHD.

    .
    Quote:
    Though I cannot prove it, I firmly think that even the reverse is true. Loweing BP indeed does provide LESS oxygenated blood and more importantly IMPEDES the formation of collateral arteries which could aid in blood flow around old compromised arteries.

    Thank you bbroadhead for bring this up.
    Well....... when the circulatory system has narrowed openings, less blood gets through the pipes, resulting in less oxygenated blood! One main purpose of BP medications is to relax, and cause less narrowing within the circulatory system, thus allowing more blood to flow under less pressure.

    But, I do agree strongly with you on one point, which is that you would not be able to prove your assumption that lowering blood pressure is unhealthy.
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    Last edited by Machaon; 06-20-2007 at 08:25 AM.

     
    Old 06-21-2007, 06:20 AM   #8
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    There is a distinct difference betweeen, clogging/narrowing and STIFFENING of the vascular system.
    I think that it's the STIFFENING that is FAR more responsible for the steady rise in BP that most people see with age. A 50% narrowing here and there is apt to have FAR less effect than miles and miles of blood vessels losing their resiliency and resisting each systolic beat.

    I think that a 70% blockage in a coronary artery would have close to a ZERO percent chance of raising BP to any measurable degree.

    But, even though I don't have the resources to run a study showing that lowering BP HARMS those with vascular disease, I think the medical profession who freely prounounce the opposite, that llowering BP HELPS, DO have the resources to prove their claim is true...they have not done so. Instead they CHOOSE to continue prescribing preposterous amounts of antihypertensives purely ON FAITH while prounouncing EX CATHEDRA that hypertension is a major contributor to vascular heart disease. I think the onus of proof falls on the drug pushers rather than on patients.

    Perhaps it's no coincidence that as a larger and larger percentage of the population is put on antihypertensives at younger and younger ages for lower and lower BP readings, the incidence of late life cardiovacular disease increases and increases and INCREASES....wouldn't we expect exactly the OPPOSITE?

    Quote:
    if we follow the dots from HIgh Blood Pressure to damage to the Pancreas, which is directly related to causing garbage to form
    Aha, so it's PANCREATIC damage that is the route between hypertension and cardiovascular disease, whooda thunk? Perhaps the Lancet would be interested in YOUR proof of this subtle connection?
    No, there's no provable, probable, or even conceivable connection!
    If a connection like that has to be created or imagined, it enforces my argument that the medical profession is on EXTREMELY thin ice when asserting that BP is a significant cause of cardiovascular disease.

    BP control has its place, and hypertension can be dangerous but the medical profession has overblown it's importance probably becasue it is still one of the very FEW things that a GP/PCP can provide and bill for. Their job has basically been reduced to writing referrals so they value the business they can gereat with their ancient sphymonanometers and stethescopes.

    As we age, our cardiovascualr beds stiffen...it has consequences: heart disease and hypertension. Treating the hypertension may MASK one of the manifestations of this stiffening but it has no effect on the other, far more serious consequence.
    Treating hypertension to prevent vascular disease is something akin to breaking your car's fuel guage in the hope that the car will avoid running out of gas.

    Thank you again, bbroadhead for broaching this important subject.

    Last edited by Lenin; 06-21-2007 at 06:50 AM.

     
    Old 06-21-2007, 09:08 AM   #9
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    Is there a way then to test to see if you have arterial stiffness? Presumably if your arteries were fine and elastic (like those Yanomano Indians who don't get HBP as they age), and you had HBP, then you could treat it a different way perhaps?

    More importantly are there ways to TREAT arterial stiffness which would presumably lower BP to normal levels? Or is it always the case that once your arteries are stiff, that's it, no going back?

     
    Old 06-21-2007, 10:12 AM   #10
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    This is a fascinating thread with a lot of different angles. But one thing that catches my interest here is the notion that low blood pressure decreases circulation and therefore the amount of oxygen, particularly to the brain.
    This is only logical but are we to assume automatically that this is bad? We tend to think oxygen = good so more is better. But there is a persuasive argument to be made that our oxygen deficiency is a myth. In fact, maybe we need more carbon dioxide!
    The Buteyko method for asthma has pretty well demonstrated this. It also applies to breathing for lower blood pressure. The correct way is slow and gentle breathing, which actually decreases oxygen and lower blood pressure.
    The usual advice on "deep breathing" is very misleading and counter-productive. Deep breathing increases oxygen intake, causes hyperventilation and increases blood pressure.
    So if breathing experience shows that less oxygen in the blood can lower blood pressure what are the implications for other forms of hypertension treatment?

     
    Old 06-22-2007, 05:41 PM   #11
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    What the world needs is a "rotor router" for the circulatory system. Heart disease is the number 1 killer, and mankind still needs a better way to unclog our arteries. I don't believe all the hype from drug companies who pay for their own double blind placebo controlled crossover studies. They also usually do not publish results that do not work and do not add profit to their bottom line.

     
    Old 06-22-2007, 05:47 PM   #12
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    One way, I believe to measure arterial stiffness is to take blood pressure at your ankle and the elbow. If there is a big pressure drop to ankle this implies
    a restriction in your arteries.

     
    Old 06-23-2007, 07:10 AM   #13
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

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    Old 06-23-2007, 09:21 AM   #14
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

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    Old 06-24-2007, 10:33 AM   #15
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    Re: High Blood pressure Cause or Effect?

    What medications help unclog / dialate the arteries so blood flows better? I don't just want to lower blood pressure, but actually improve circulation? My understanding is if arteriers are dialated, ( less constricted) then your blood pressure will also be lower. Maybe "water pills" lower blood pressure, but do they work on the root cause - constricted arteries?

     
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