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    Old 01-02-2006, 11:01 AM   #1
    swirlygirl
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    Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi all,
    I just have to write and see if any of you have any ideas/suggestions, etc. I am feeling extremely tired and alone right now - not what I had in mind for the holidays!!! I explained in one thread how I started feeling more vertigo again after driving through fog at night - the wierdest sensation - like everything was closing in on me - and then I started waking up at night with the same sensation - like swirling vertigo coming towards me - giving me a suffocating feeling. So I know that I deal with anxiety that goes along with this vestibular disorder, but I was feeling really good about having it under control, and I've been doing the things that worked for me in the past, like breathing exercises, CBT, and if all else fails, Ativan! However, it's happening more and more at night - it wakes me up - and I have to get up and turn on lights so that I can get some idea of which way is up and reorient myself. My problem now is that I am just wiped because I'm unable to get enough sleep - even with lying down during the day. During the day when I'm moving around I still have that unsteady, unbalanced feeling that I've always had since the beginning, but if I have an attack of "swirling vertigo", it feels different - less warning (no prewarning feeling of head/ear pressure) and I'm just hitting the ground - but also that "attached" feeling of suffocation that I assume is more due to anxiety. The actual vertigo is not really lasting much longer (I don't think so anyway, but at night it's more difficult for me to gauge), usually a few minutes, but I am so wiped by it, I just want to sleep for days and days. Anyway, I'm feeling desperate, and I'm sure there's something that I just am not thinking of that can help - but my brain's on overload. I have been trying Epleys - on both sides - but no major movement when I try to induce it - so I'm not sure what's happening. So sorry to sound so melodramatic, but I really am feeling like I should be able to deal with this by now, and it's really bothering me that I can't. Need those positive vibes ... or something...
    Thanks...
    Swirlygirl

     
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    Old 01-02-2006, 11:56 AM   #2
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    yep... ifeel for you!! then anxiety kicks in overdrive worrying about the next attack of vertigo will be!! then of course body is weak and tired and hurts all over.. everytone keeps saying anxiety, if I am so healthy why don't I feel like it?????

     
    Old 01-02-2006, 01:31 PM   #3
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    Cool Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi Swirlygirl

    ..."and I'm sure there's something that I just am not thinking of that can help"...(more on that below)

    Yep this junk is a bear to deal with..and most people if not all...can count on an anxiety component......big time!!

    ----CBT...does help...but....the anxiety...is..being triggered by the unconscious part of ur brain(limbic system--coming out as "fear"---since that system see's what is taking place to u---as survival---triggering --- "fight..flight...emotions....etc...)..so ...until...the vestibular injury..settles down/overcome...it is going to get triggered(by vertigo,etc)......use CBT...to moderate...the fear/anxiety....as best u can...unitl u overcome the vestibular injury...as for that-----

    ----Took another look at ur first post...BPPV---right side...with all the other...stuff they said was possible...while it is possible...for a "Ménière's" component....statically...it is not likely..."Menieres disease has a prevalence of about 200 cases/100,000 persons in the United States, or in other words, about 0.2 % of the population has Meniere's disease."...(Northwestern Univ web site).....

    Also...while a latency & fatiguing...is a hallmark of...BPPV...the person who has it...experineces the latency...as a delay..in the start of vertigo(10/45 sec)...and the fatiguing...as...a stopping of the vertigo...after it starts...in about 1/2 min

    ...so from ur standpoint(the--nystagmus--(jumping of the eyes)--notwithstanding)---does not mean to much...in terms of u getting a handle on it,i.e., really have BPPV right side----if when u do the MEP for the right side...ur experiencing a delay(latency) in the vertigo starting...after placing ur self in the first head position---and holding that position...it subsides(fatigues)---more then likely as not it is BPPV right side...if it is...then....

    It would be better to do/follow the MEP instructions...excatly...for that side only....remembering...that...u only do it...until...u go for three sets(24hrs)...with out any...vertigo...u then stop...doing them...if u suspect the ear rocks ...have slip back...u can do them again...follwing the instructions.....
    ...also...there is mixed feelings on sleeping..at a 45Deg angle...for about 2 to 3 days...after the MEP's...usually in a recliner..but I did it...that way...and I think...it helped

    ....also...even when ur sleeping...ur brain...is very active..especially during "Rem" sleep...playing back all of the events of that day...assessing...keeping and moving in to "Long Term Memory"(establishing neural networks)...those things that it thinks are important...like...the VRT manuvures...and discarding those things...it does not feel are important...primarly it's implicant concern---is--- with "survival" & "reproductive" happenings

    ---it will move other events to long term memory...but...only if....u have ..."ID'd" their importance---through repetition...spaced about 10 min apart---think VRT's....so it would not be unusual--for--a vertigo event/experience...to wake u up...if u moved...and the rocks were not out...

    Remembering...that once the "ear rocks" are out...and stay out....u still will need considerable time...for compensation...to be accomplished...8 weeks of VRT...in most cases...will not achieve compensation..for most people...much longer is usually needed for the brain to reestablish the neural networks..that this junk disrutpted.......takes time...but it can be done...as for the......

    "fog/driving" issue...that is likely...a vision issue...assocated with the BPPV...and failure to compensate...what takes place is---that u become overly dependent on vision...when ur vestibular system..gets hosed....by the BPPV...so when u...have ur eyes closed...or driving in fog or walking at night...or in a dimly lit room....u lose/diminish the visual input...and absent...a fully functioning....vestibular system...(i.e., a loss of position sense, or vestibular sense, or visual sensation, or a combination of all three)---ur brain's equilibrium center has lost...it's primary balance signal(s)....

    So...think....it's not so much that ur not doing/thinking of...just have to do what u been doing in a fashion/order...that correctly addresses...the problem.

    First...get the rocks out(MEP)....Second....retrain...the brain(VRT's).......Third.....mediate the anxiety(CBT's)...Fourth..hope for a short recovery period..but count..on 12-18 months...from the time u get the rocks out...for the brain to reestablish the neural networks(i.e., long term memory)..so...

    ---do the MEP for the right side

    ---get back to the VRT's

    ---continue the CBT's...

    U'll make it...but in that order....


    Last edited by Subs30; 01-02-2006 at 01:56 PM.

     
    Old 01-02-2006, 11:25 PM   #4
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Subs,
    Thanks so much for your reply - I don't know how you do it, but everything you said makes perfect sense. I agree with you 100% about the Meniere's "variant" thing - as I said in an earlier post, I feel that it was just something that one particular ENT put on his consult report without really doing any testing/questioning, etc. because he thought that my problem was psychological from the get go due to the meds I was/am on for anxiety - luckily, he was the minority for me with regards to that kind of experience/feedback with the medical system, so I'm not surprised to hear you think that this is unlikely - it's a relief actually.

    As well, I agree that it is actual vertigo waking me up - it's my response to it in my half-awake state that is the problem - maybe more "dryland" breathing & CBT beforehand (ie. while I am actually awake!) - will help me kick-start it a little better at night.

    As for the order I should be following, that too makes perfect sense, and I think that somewhere (pushed way back to some non-thinking part of my brain right now!) I should have been able to figure that out! I'm just such a major fatigued wreck right now that I can't pull anything out of the vortex... so, thanks once again for helping me put it together through your explanation, experience and research. First, MEP on right side until I can do them for 3 sets without any vertigo to get the rocks out - and I will certainly give the 45 degree angle sleeping a go - then, VRT - for much longer than the 8 - 10 weeks I have been trying, knowing that it will feel worse before it starts to feel better - that's been the really hard part for me to get through before - but I do "know" it and even "understand" it - it's just "doing" it that has been the problem - but it is a necessity if I am to experience compensation - hope for short - prepare for long, okay... and CBT throughout for the anxiety...

    Subs, I feel like a small child learning the alphabet, or a second language - the fog is so thick I just cannot pull what I think I know out anymore - I thank you once again for your help and insight... please know how much your knowledge has helped...

    I'll keep in touch...
    Thanks,
    ~Swirlygirl

    Sorry, just one more question - what has your experience been with meds throughout this battle??? I'll write more later on mine - must go now...

    Last edited by swirlygirl; 01-02-2006 at 11:30 PM.

     
    Old 01-03-2006, 05:07 AM   #5
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    Cool Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Happy New Year Swirly,

    Trying to get to sleep and sleep throught the night can be such a bear, I know. For me, I have found a few things to help me at bedtime:
    • I will usually start off dozing with a small tv or light on. I have found that having something else "moving" in the background (like the tv screen), allows me to focus on that rather than how the inside of my head is feeling.
    • I sleep hugging a body pillow, which makes me feel "grounded", and gives me the feeling of extra support when I feel like I am in motion (when I'm not).
    • Usually on the side that I feel like I am leaning towards or being pulled towards, I will put a piece of blanket or pillow next to that ear, so I can better "feel" where my head is "in space", and that seems to help subside the leaning or 'oozing' feeling.

    I used to wake up in the middle of the night with anxiety attacks and/or feelings of disorientation. I think for some people, it's easier to deal with what they have to in the DAYLIGHT. But waking up in the "dead of night", feeling unlike yourself, and feeling like you are the only person awake at such a late hour, can add to whatever physical or emotional feelings you are having.

    For that, I learned to "practice calm", and to do something to tak emy mind off of the anxiety that accompanied my head symptoms. Either keep a light-hearted book by your bed, or a journal to write in. I would take a few moments to talk reassurance to myself, allow myself to feel whatever it was that I was feeling upon waking, and give myself some time for things to settle and my body to relax so I could doze off again. Doing something quiet (like journaling or reading a few pages) allowed me to calm myself enough to try going back to sleep.

    xo

     
    Old 01-03-2006, 07:37 AM   #6
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi Swirlygirl
    Sorry to hear you are still in the thick of this crap.
    Glad Subs was there to help too. I agree with the sleeping reclined thing. I did that for the first few nights after I did the MEP. AFter that I slept with three pillows and one on my right side to stop myself from lying on the affected side. It took me over a year to be able to even try rolling onto that side without feeling 'off', no actual vertigo though. I still don't tend to sleep on that side probably just a new habit learned.

    When I did the MEP off the end of my bed, I would hold my watch up about 10inches from my face and time the positions. THis way I could see if the latency and fatiguing were changing. I also timed how long I was actually spinning for. THe other thing was when staring at the watch close up I could focus on one spot without too much difficulty, when I looked off at a spot on the ceiling or wall I found that I couldn't focus on it without my eyes jumping...that was actually one of my last symptoms to go. I can now focus much better far away, even when walking or moving.

    Out of curiosity, have you ever had an ENG or caloric test done to test for a weakness in either ear? That was the way I knew which side to do the mep on, I had the labs hit me two years prior and when the BPPV came on I just guessed it would be the same side and luckily was right.

    I have read on one of the sights on BPPV that occasionaly the BPPV can occur in another one of the other canals and the MEP doesn't work as well for that type. (I am pretty sure it was from one of the sticky posts) If after a week of doing the MEP three times a day you don't get any relief check it out because there is another way to deal with that one...(You may need to research this one more thoroughly as I just remember reading it in passing and as the MEP worked so quickly for me I didn't go into it any further...I think I remember you saying before you have done the MEP without any results)

    If your vertigo is brought on only by head movement changes, then you need to figure out where those crystals are and get them out! The brain fog will clear after that happens, and trust me it does go away...with patience. I think the key for you, right now, is to see some sort of improvment to let you know you are on the right track. It will do wonders for you anxiety and self esteem which in turn will speed up the healing process.
    Hope you get some results soon, am cheering for you!!!!
    FC

     
    Old 01-03-2006, 02:59 PM   #7
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Swirlygirl,

    I just wanted to say I'm thinking about you as I felt very sad after reading your post. I still am suffering from a lot of ear symptoms, but I have to say my dizziness is almost gone and my vision has improved, not 100% but better. I can't imagine how it would be to walk around dizzy for as long as you have as mine lasted for almost a year and it is hard enough to deal with the other ear/head symptoms.

    The best advice I got from this board is to take one day at a time and sometimes live one moment at a time. You have shown yourself to be strong, keep it up and fight it. Don't let it get you down as that seems to cause more anxiety which only makes us feel worse.

    I'm thinking of you and praying for your wellness.

    Someone sent me a card with the following written on it and then I saw it posted on another board and it reminded me of the card I got from a friend so I am sending these words your way now.

    I SAID A PRAYER FOR YOU TODAY
    I know God must have heard
    I felt the answer in my heart, although He spoke no word.
    I didn't ask for wealth or fame; I knew you wouldn't mind.

    I asked Him to send treasures of a far more lasting kind.
    I asked that He'd be near you at the start of each new day,
    To grant you health and blessings and friends to share the way.

    I asked for happiness for you in all things great and small.
    But it was for His loving care I prayed the most of all.

    Take care of yourself - Gloria

    PS - I don't know what your spiritual background is but please accept it as good well wishes heading your way.

    Last edited by gloria2936; 01-03-2006 at 02:59 PM.

     
    Old 01-03-2006, 03:23 PM   #8
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    Cool Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi Swirlygirl


    ..."question - what has your experience been with meds throughout this battle???"....

    I was lucky....in that...I got through it...without..having to take any....but...let me be clear---here.......if I had thought I needed to I would have....

    ...because----(without question, once u get passed--the vestibular sensor fix/healing--issue i.e., "rocks out"..etc...)...

    -----the "in's" and "outs" of this junk----play out over the landscape of your brain(ur mind)--and...

    ----are generated by the chemicals that turn the modules of our brains on and off---which creates---- the neural patterns that spell out our moods---creates or recreates our long term memory

    ---also----stabing out urgent messages of fear and anger----to which---- the brain(cortex)---responds---by flooding our consciousness with emotion and shadows....so....

    ----we feel it as well as act it---out.....long after the sensor issue is fixed...

    ---said before...this may start as a vestibular issure...but..becomes much more then that....as many here...understand only to well...unforgently...

    ---the neural networks...that are disrupted...took...years(most research shows 12 years)...to encode into long term memory...i.e., those movement templates...that make up ur basic movement repertoire....

    ---these movement memories are--NOT---held inside neurons---the brain's cells

    ---both short and long-term recollections are set in the connections between neurons---called synapse---tiny gaps where the signal-emitting finger of one neuron(an axon) sends a message across to a signal-receiving finger of another neuron(a dendrite.)...

    ---A memory is created when a network of synapse is strengthened---temporarily for short term memory and permanently for a long term one...

    ----over time the network of connections can be strengthened further, weakened or broken.....by a number of positive/negative events...

    ---This junk either weakens or breaks those bonds(network connections).....

    So what once was...done automaticly...i.e., movements...learned and stored...must now...be done consciously...by the brain...causing...it to overload...

    ----resulting in "brain fog".....

    ----for me...saw double for about a week...one eye..showed a view above the other...could not even sign my name...and had no knowledge...of what---why---or whatever...was going down...

    ---Scientists have known since the 1960s that turning on genes was some how involved in making memories permanent..because genes tell cells to produce proteins---which are needed for neural networks...and that different individuals have different levels of genetic predisposition to produce these proteins...which can/could account for the varying length of time...of each of us...to reach full compensation....through reestablishing those long term memory....movement templates...

    Sorry...got a little carried away there...but it is so important...to understand...that it's a "two step" dance.....first...fix/heal the sensor...second...deal/reestablish...the long term memory...through vrt's...in order to acheive...full compensation.....

    That's the part...they never tell/talk about...and most of that...is......driven.....

    -----by the chemicals that turn the modules of our brains on and off---and that creates---- the neural patterns that spell out our moods---creates or recreates our long term memory-----

    So---yep---if I thought it would have helped...would have!!!!!!


    Last edited by Subs30; 01-03-2006 at 03:37 PM.

     
    Old 01-03-2006, 05:21 PM   #9
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi Swirlygirl,

    So sorry to hear you are having such a rough time of this and especially in the night. For me that was one of the worst parts. I would wake in the night totally out of my mind - just flipping out sometimes. I would sometimes go days without sleep and I know how awful that can be. I feel it's really important to get your sleep into some sort of order again asap otherwise it'll just make all of this seem so much worse. Not sure how you should best approach that but valium and those sorts of meds worked well for me. And hoping what Subs mentioned will bring some results too (ie. MEP etc). It can be very hard to manage the anxiety when it goes beyond a certain point I think...and I don't know where the boundary is for the anxiety generated by the physiological damage and where are own mind fears pick it up. There's no question though that you can greatly reduce it (for me this was true anyway) with meditation in the night when it wakes you. Try and imagine that you have awakened in the midst of a hurricane and that you can move to the eye of the storm where all is calm. From that viewpoint, you can work on simply watching the "storm" around you but staying separate from it. This worked for me and I will still use it should I ever wake like that again.

    Keep us posted and hoping you can sleep soon!

    Best...Scott

    Last edited by studyin; 01-04-2006 at 03:25 PM.

     
    Old 01-03-2006, 10:27 PM   #10
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    I've had BPPV and ongoing vision / dizziness problems for over 4 1/2 years now, so I can sympathise, especially with waking up during the night feeling dizzy and your brain not being able to work out where you are "in space" due to the darkness - it just makes it a million times worse! It was especially bad when I stayed over at my boyfriend's place, as his bedroom is pitch black during the night and I couldn't see a thing when (not if!) I woke up during the night.

    I found one thing that really helps is to sleep with a nightlight on - that way, when I wake up, I can see enough for my brain to be able to recognise where I am and my surroundings and that has helped tremendously, especially in controlling the anxiety / panic that used to escalate severely when I couldn't see where I was. I now live with my boyfried and have the nightlight on every night - it's one of those that gives out a soft green "glow" and while it provides enough light to see by, it's not enough to disturb your sleep (or the other person's, for that matter).

    I agree with Firechick's comments regarding BPPV sometimes occurring in different canals where the MEP is not as effective. My VRT guy said much the same thing in that the only problem with something like the MEP being done at home is that not everyone's canals are at the same angle and if you do the MEP and don't have the angle quite right when putting your head back over the pillow), it may not work as well. The MEP didn't really work that well for me, and then ceased to have any effect at all, but other exercises have worked so I guess it's just an individual thing!

    Take care

    Julie

     
    Old 01-04-2006, 04:24 PM   #11
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    Talking Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi Everyone,
    I've just come home from a stint at the hospital with my son (15) who is a very avid x-country skier and does pretty rigorous workouts with the team he is on. Unfortunately, I think he pushed a little too hard and ended up with what the docs think is a strained muscle in the back of his head (back left side), but the symptoms, when it got really bad, were similar to a slow-leak aneurism (sp?), so we were a little scared there for awhile - not to worry - everything's okay now.

    Before I go to bed, I just had to write and thank you all for the overwhelming response to my questions - you truly brought me to tears. I will write back to you all when my head stops spinning (or is spinning a little less), but I'm so grateful that you are all there with your very sound advice, experience and encouragement. Now I'm going to do my last set of MEP for the day, try to find a focal point (hugs FC), hug my body pillow and hope to get some sleep... I do promise to answer all your posts... I can't thank you all enough for everything... I no longer feel alone

    Hugs to all,
    ~Swirlygirl

     
    Old 01-04-2006, 05:37 PM   #12
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    will you please see my new thread.....i'm concerend that i have what you have and not anxiety...which i was diagnosed with today after a series of bloodtests to rule out issues with my blood sugar and thyroid. i assumed i had anxiety since i have a wierd vision/head feeling when out alone most of the time and even sometimes at work...feel off balance and have been this way since october when it started off with sinus infection. no vertigo...just lightheaded...no issues when lying down......

    was on anxiety board and a poster told me to come here...so i posted a new thread....please read and let me know what you think....have i been misdiagnosed?

    thank you.
    manchak99

     
    Old 01-04-2006, 05:39 PM   #13
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    one other thing...what is CBT, MEP and VBT?

    would like to try these if they'll work...for me

     
    Old 01-05-2006, 08:50 AM   #14
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    Hi Swirlygirl,

    That had to be so scary for you with your son; I'm glad it all worked out and you must feel so much more relieved. Take care of yourself - Gloria



    Hi Manchak,

    Sorry you ended up on these boards but hope the following will help answer some of your questions. I didn't have the opportunity to read your original post so I'm not sure what your situation is but to help clearify some of the terminology I will point you in the right direction.

    Firechick and Swirlygirl did a great job explaining CBT (cognative behavior therapy) to me. It is written in the following posts:
    [url]http://www.healthboards.com/boards/showthread.php?t=332736[/url] you will have to schroll down to the last few pages of the post (I think the information starts around page 11 or 12) also information on the MEP can be found in the sticky archieves that are at the top of the posts on this board. It is helpful for people with positional vertigo. I don't have that but Firechick and others swear that it helps when you have BPPV.

    Hope the sources help provide some information on this for you.

    Best - Gloria

    Last edited by gloria2936; 01-05-2006 at 08:58 AM.

     
    Old 01-05-2006, 10:07 AM   #15
    manchak99
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    Re: Different symptoms - anxiety or BPPV?

    how will the docs tell if it's an inner ear thing or anxiety? is there a true way to tell? otherwise......i could be being treated for anxiety without knowing if i truly have BPPV or whatever else in my ear......

     
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