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peregrine 03-25-2006 11:48 AM

IgeneX tests
 
It was "bugging" me not to understand their tests, but now I think I do.

2 or more of the following double starred bands have to be present (positive) to receive the determination "positive" from IgeneX

**23-25
**31
**34
**39
**41

The CDC criteria for "positive" is presence (positive) of 2 of the following bands:

23-25
39
41

Just in case anyone else is interested ;)

Prema

Smyle 03-25-2006 12:06 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi All:

Prema- You are right about those results for the IgM, but there is more to the story...

I had been looking this over very closely when I got my sons results so this is fresh in my mind. The IgM is actually very important in lyme since that is what shows current infection. In Lyme the IgG show past, but possibly resolved infection. This is opposite for things like allergies. The CDC has much more stict criteria than Igenex. Also, many of these band are lyme specific like 23-25, 31, 34, 39-so you would think if you had a positive on any of those it would be a diagnosis on its own. Apparently the CDC's criteria used to be less stringent, but they have back pedaled recently so instead of making progress with diagnosing lyme we are going backwards. :confused:

Actually the CDC has more strict criteria than Igenex. For the [B]IgM[/B] Igenex considers it positive if you have [B]2 or more[/B] of the following bands present:

23-25
31
34
39
41

The CDC considers the [B]IgM[/B] positive if you have [B]2 of the following 3 bands [/B] positive:

23-25
39
41

For an [B]IgG[/B] Igenex considers it positive if you have [B]2 or more of these bands[/B] present:

23-26
31
34
39
41
93
Igenex considers the [B]IgG[/B] equivocal if you have one of these bands present by itself with the exception of band 41 since it can be found in all spirochetes.

The CDC criteria for [B]IgG[/B] is:
that [B]5 of the following bands must be present[/B]
18
23-25
28
30
39
41
45
58
66
93

CDC considers it negative if less than five of any of these bands are positive.
The CDC also disregards bands 31 and 34 since they were used to make the vaccine that has been pulled off the market, even if you have not been vaccinated they will not count those bands if you react to them.

Frango

peregrine 03-25-2006 12:16 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi Frango,

That actually [I]was[/I] the IGM that I posted.

On a further look, I think we are saying the same thing.

Prema

Smyle 03-25-2006 12:41 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi Prema:

You're right- I saw my typo at the top and edited it at around the same time you posted...I was having a hard time understanding why the need to do both the IgM and the IgG. Dr Harris had explained to me that with lyme it is very important to look at both the IgM and the IgG. I believe that it may give a clue as to how long you have had the infection so I was just adding in the IgG portion of what you had posted...

Thanks for starting the thread since I think a lot of people are confused about what the results actually mean. When you look at the "hits" on the lyme board it is obvious that there are a [I]lot[/I] of people out there other than just those of us who actually chat. Many of us have made it our job to find out what it is that is making us sick and how to get better. I think all information and a lot of detail is very helpful and if I can help anyone from going through what I have been through then I am glad to help even if it is sometimes lengthy or redundant. ;)

Frango

peregrine 03-25-2006 12:50 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
So the IGG would indicate the Lyme had been in the body awhile. Is this right? If so, then I don't understand my test results because the IGG was negative, the IGM positive. But I was bitten by ticks over 20 years ago and developed symptoms 13 years ago, if you get my drift. :confused:

Prema

Smyle 03-25-2006 01:05 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi Prema:

This was my situation too. What I was told was that when you have had Lyme for a long time they see peaking IgM's and can see negative IgG's. After you have had the lyme bacteria in your system for a while you stop producing antibodies to it.

I was not aware of this information when I was doing my lyme tests with Igenex so I called Dr. Harris. I was pretty convinced that I had had lyme for a long time so I was not going to do the IgM- I thought IgM only indicated an early infection and at that point I had already been unwell for quite some time. Dr. Harris told me that it is very important to do both the IgM and the IgG since the information that they get from both has to be looked at together to get the whole picture. Apparently lyme likes tissue, joints, brain etc and I think Denise had mentioned on another thread and my llmd told me they have actually seen lyme spirochetes under microscopes change shape from the cell wall form to the cyst or L-form which technically has no cell wall and can hide from your immune system. I think this is why lyme tests can be so unreliable and why lyme can be so hard to treat.

Frango

deejavu 03-25-2006 03:05 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi Prema and Frango,

I would comment further then I usually do :rolleyes: but I am having a bad day today with bad cramps from my period. Uggggggg!

Anyway, below are thoughts written by a well-known LLMD:

There are nine known Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific KDA Western Blot antibodies (bands): 18 23 30 31 34 37 39 83 and 93.

Only one of these Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific bands is needed to confirm that there is serological evidence of exposure to the Borrelia burgdorferi spirochete and can confirm a clinical diagnosis of Lyme disease.

[B]CDC[/B] Western Blot IgM surveillance criteria includes only two Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies for IgM 23 and 39 and excludes the other seven Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies.

[B]CDC[/B] Western Blot IgG surveillance criteria includes 18 23 30 37 39 and 93 and excludes bands 31 34 and 83.

It does not make sense to exclude any Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies in a Lyme Western Blot IgG and to include only two of these antibodies in IgM because all the antibodies in IgG were once IgM.

[I]IgM converts to IgG in about two months unless there is a persisting infection driving a persisting IgM reaction.[/I]

This is the case with any infection including the Borrelia burgdorferi induced Lyme disease.

[B]CDC wrongfully [/B] includes five non-specific cross-reacting antibodies in its Western Blot surveillance criteria: 28 41 45 58 and 66.

This leads to the possibility of false positive Lyme Western Blots.

There can be no false positives if only Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies are considered. One can have a CDC surveillance positive IgG Lyme Western Blot with the five non-specific antibodies without having any Borrelia burgdorferi genus specie specific antibodies.

[B]This does not make sense. [/B]

CDC recommends that the Lyme Western Blot be performed only if there is a positive or equivocal Lyme ELISA. In my practice of over 7000 children with Lyme disease, 30% with a CDC positive Lyme Western Blot have negative ELISA’s.

The Lyme ELISA is a poor screening test. An adequate screening test should have false positives not false negatives.

brid 03-25-2006 06:09 PM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
hi guys! ghope you are having a good weekend... not me.. i had horrible muscle spams on my leg today, sore now, i just post.. anyway.. what doctor harris told me about igg and igm was that igg positive and igm negative meands that you had lyme in the past, while igm show present lyme, my igg was negative and my igm was indeterminate, with 3 positive bands and 2 indeterminates..
hugs!

peregrine 03-26-2006 02:56 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi Frango, Denise, Brid,


Interesting information. I find it fascinating.

Denise, regarding this statement."

"IgM converts to IgG in about two months unless there is a persisting infection driving a persisting IgM reaction."

Does this mean that when the infection abates, IGG will then be positive and IGM negative?

Prema

deejavu 03-26-2006 03:22 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Morning Prema,

From my understanding, when a person is first infected, that person has IgM reactions which converts to IgG "unless" (being the operative word here) the infection keeps persisting. Then a person IgM's reactions are still active.

So I don't think the IgG should be positive, the IgM should be positive if the infection is active.

Does that make sense?

Denise

dianneom 03-26-2006 05:11 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
I'm confused. My last IgeneX IgM and IgG are both positive.

battling on 03-26-2006 05:18 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi Dj
My study bud. meant you in the libarary later for a sarni.
Tuna and mayo. :D

isnt it possible to have both positive if you have been infected on 2 seperate occasions with a time difference.?

Your IGG remains positive from your old infection and IGM is positive to new infection

i want to look this up but im sicky icky today. xx
jules

battling on 03-26-2006 06:11 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
right ok i did look , couldnt just leave it.

It reads " everything you need to know about lyme"
Usually IgM antibodies start to show with in 2 to 4 weeks, they peak at 4 weeks and then decline but some patience maintain a positive IgM for many years which may be a bad prognostic sign.

page 68.

but im sure you can have it on reinfection as well so i will have alook later.

hope this helps.

xx jules xx

Smyle 03-26-2006 06:54 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Hi All:

IgM and IgG are two totally different antibodies. Your body produces IgM as a first response to many, many different diseases-bacteria, viruses, vaccines etc., IgG shows up later and shows that your body has recognized the initial infection. Your IgG on anything can be positive for the rest of your life. I suppose like Jules said if you were re-infected your IgM could be positive again, or in the case of lyme in chronic late-stage lyme they do see peaking IgM's, which means that one month your IgM may be negative and then a few weeks later it could be positive. This is one of the reasons that lyme antibody tests are inaccurate. You can look up antibodies and immunology- there are actually many more antibodies that the body produces than just these two, but these are they ones that they look at in lyme.

Frango

dianneom 03-26-2006 06:56 AM

Re: IgeneX tests
 
Thanks Jules, I have the book, not thinking today.
Thanks fango,
My ELISA test from Quest was postive 1.4. I also tested postive at Lab Corp, ELISA 1.47 back in 2000. Of course all dr's I saw said, if your Western blot is negative you don't have Lyme. Probably why I'm so sick today.

Dianne


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