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If I am secondary hypo, HCG will work?


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Old 04-06-2007, 11:18 AM   #1
Bonds
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

Hayfarmer:


If I am secondary hypo, HCG will work?



I am in my mid 20's.

I used to have lots of energy but after my last growth spurt at 16/17, I got big and never felt the same. Depression, fatigue, trouble with memory, foggy feeling all day, developed sinus problems (which I never had before) and even seemed to develop asthma or some type of breathing problem when I run. I used to be a very good athlete, now

Have you ever heard of someone falling apart right after a major growth spurt?


My testosterone levels are low.

My first test was about 1 year ago and they came back at 177ng...others varied in the high 200's - low 300's. Total Average of all tests is about 315ng.

Then I went to another Endo and he took a few tests; two tests were in the range of 177...I was put on Testim and after a bit of time I was tested, a third time and it came back at 95.



I once read an article that said that it is possible that your testosterone levels can go to low right after puberty since the testosterone levels are very high (during puberty to grow) and then when the body does not need that same amount in your system, it tries to balance out, but sometimes the body goes to low.

If I am in my mid 20's, and I noticed the problem when I was 16/17, is it to late to start HCG even though everything seems to be working, but LH levels just seem to be very low.

Could HCG kick start my system again and keep it where it should be?

When I looked up HCG it led me to a lot of articles about steroid users: they stated that steroid users use HCG, clomid, and other drugs to get their system back in line after the use of steroid cycles.

I don't know if it is the same with me since my Hypo (I feel) was caused after my last growth spurt; I just wondered if it could work the same.

Last edited by Bonds; 04-06-2007 at 11:29 AM.

 
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:22 PM   #2
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

You should start a new thread for this. HCG should work for you if the reason your T is low is because your LH is low. The only possible problem is if you have been on Testim or any T replacement for too long and your testicles have atrophy to the point they can not be restarted. But for some people it is possible to restart them even after years. Being young is definitely in your favor. I have not heard of this happening after a growth spurt. I think you need to find someone to attempt to restart your HPTA also. If you can get your HPTA working you might not even need HCG. Unfortunately some of the best doctors to do this would be doctors that treat athletes taking anabolic steroids. In the meantime you could take HCG though to start to get your testicles working again. Right now while you are on Testim you have your HPTA shut down and your testicles shut down. The HCG will begin to get the testicles to work again anyway so you will be half way home.

The HCG is the same thing anabolic steroid users may use to keep their testicles working while on steriods. You are so young your doctor should have tried HCG before Testim. You are not likely to be able to have children in your current state. But with the HCG you still may be able to and if you get the HPTA working too you may find you can get back to normal....but it depends on what the root cause of your problem really is. How long have you been on Testim? What other tests have you had done for this problem? Do you have a copies of blood work? Did you have an MRI of the pituitary?

 
Old 04-06-2007, 10:14 PM   #3
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayfarmer View Post
You should start a new thread for this. HCG should work for you if the reason your T is low is because your LH is low. The only possible problem is if you have been on Testim or any T replacement for too long and your testicles have atrophy to the point they can not be restarted. But for some people it is possible to restart them even after years. Being young is definitely in your favor. I have not heard of this happening after a growth spurt. I think you need to find someone to attempt to restart your HPTA also. If you can get your HPTA working you might not even need HCG. Unfortunately some of the best doctors to do this would be doctors that treat athletes taking anabolic steroids. In the meantime you could take HCG though to start to get your testicles working again. Right now while you are on Testim you have your HPTA shut down and your testicles shut down. The HCG will begin to get the testicles to work again anyway so you will be half way home.

The HCG is the same thing anabolic steroid users may use to keep their testicles working while on steriods. You are so young your doctor should have tried HCG before Testim. You are not likely to be able to have children in your current state. But with the HCG you still may be able to and if you get the HPTA working too you may find you can get back to normal....but it depends on what the root cause of your problem really is. How long have you been on Testim? What other tests have you had done for this problem? Do you have a copies of blood work? Did you have an MRI of the pituitary?
MRI, NO, insurance wouldn't cover it unless Cat-Scan showed something: everything was good with the Cat.

I have been on Testim for two months. Started with one tube for 6 weeks, took the test at end of week six, measured 95 ng/dL (which is worse than before), then moved up to two tubes for the next two; now he put me on Androgel. I thought they were the same thing, didn't understand the point. Maybe I should of stayed on the Testim 2 tubes which was a bump up. I figured it might be 95ng because it was shutting me down and it "may" go back up with the two tubes a day. Two problems with this: (1)not sure if it would go back up, and waiting to see if it works is pain.
(2) I really want to see if I can get my natural testosterone back to "normal" which would be ??? hopefully 850+ ng/dL.

Other options were oral and or injections every day. I was surprised with the injections "every day" since my friends friend takes one shot every two weeks. He also says that he prefers the shots over the gels.



I am going to have to bring up the HCG treatment to my Endo. I do have one article from Columbia University that suggests 25 mg clomiphene citrate (commonly known as Clomid*), so hopefully that will help kick things off.



I was tested over a 14-month period. I don't have the last 3 months by my current Endo, , but last result I do know was 95 ng, that was very recent.

First test results:

Testosterone, Serum = 177 L ng/dl {241-827}
TSH = 2.432 uIU/mL {0.350- 5.5000}
........................................ ......................................

Second Test: two months later


FSH and LH
LH = 2.3 mIU/Ml {1.5-9.3}
FSH = 4.3 mIU/mL {1.4-18.1}

Test., Free and Total Test. Serum = 430 ng/dl {241- 827}

Free Test. (Direct) = 10.2 pg/mL {9.3 - 26.5}

Prolactin = 5.9 ng/ml {2.1- 17.7}

Sex Horm Binding Glob, Serum = 26 nmol/L {13-71}
........................................ ........................................

Third Test: three months later

Testosterone, Free and weakly Bount Test. Total = 314
Testosterone Free and weakly bound sex hormone binding globulin = 25 {7-44 NMOL/L}

Test. Free= 73 {34-194 PG/ML}

Test. Free and Weakly bound = 169 {84-402 NG/DL}

FSH = 3.2 {1.6-8.0 MIU/ML}
LH = 2.3 {1.5-9.3 MIU/ML}
Prolactin = 5.5 {2.0-18.0 NG/ML}
T-4, Free = 1.6 {0.8-1.8 NG/DL}
TSH = 1.22 {0.40-5.50 MIU/L}

......................................

Fourth Test: Total and Free only

Testosterone, Serum = 345 ng/dl {241-827}

Free Testosterone (Direct) = 8.6L pg/mL {9.3- 26.5}

........................................ ..........


I think there may have been one more test before the "Fourth Test" I listed...I know it was 400, possibly low 300's.



My first two Endos told me not to worry. The Second Endo told me that it was mental and that I shouldn't worry..."Testosterone isn't even needed" and "Testosterone in Males is going down anyway so it is normal."
He actually looked at me and said I looked fine. He commented, "I know what you came in here for"


I couldn't believe it, I was stunned and didn't have a come-back line because of the shock.

Not only did he not make sense, but he seemed to stereotype me at the same time.

The Man was trying to tell me about health while he is weighing in at 300+ pounds.
After I left, the shock wore off and found his statements ignorant.

If Testosterone levels are falling in Males, then shouldn't we figure out "why"?

For him knowing what "I came in here for", yeah, it is called answers and treatment. Steroids? NO, treatment of what is causing the problem(s). Get rid of my fatigue, fogginess, declining physical ability from not being able to workout properly, etc. If a Tic-Tac worked, I would take it.

My last resort was going to be Steroid treatment. Who wants to rub gel on their body every day or inject a needle every day or week? Not me.


I know this, my levels are terrible. I can feel the effects and it has taken its toll on me over many years. I can't become/get where I want to in life until I get my system back on track. I feel like I have wasted many years to failure and I want to get my life back. I know there are some positives to the whole experience and still feel I can still make it all work out since I am only in my mid-20's, but...

Last edited by Bonds; 04-07-2007 at 02:38 AM.

 
Old 04-06-2007, 10:33 PM   #4
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayfarmer View Post
I have not heard of this happening after a growth spurt. I think you need to find someone to attempt to restart your HPTA also. If you can get your HPTA working you might not even need HCG. Unfortunately some of the best doctors to do this would be doctors that treat athletes taking anabolic steroids.

The HCG is the same thing anabolic steroid users may use to keep their testicles working while on steriods.
HPTA How do you restart that without HCG?

would you happen to have any information/articles/links to help me show my Doctor(s)?

Where would I find a good doctor to do this?


I really would like to get my "natural" testosterone back up without having to take medicine from the Doctors the rest of my life. I just want to know what I have to take or try and who I have to see/contact.

Do you think even though I have had this problem for many years, but since my boys and everything else is still working (just at a low pace), that if I took the HCG and whatever else treatment, that could be it? No more treatment after that; like a reboost/restart of the system.



Any help would be Appreciated

Last edited by Bonds; 04-07-2007 at 01:31 AM.

 
Old 04-07-2007, 07:10 AM   #5
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

There are various methods to restart the HPTA. One for example could be clomid and HCG at the same time. THe clomid may trick the hypothalmus into thinking there is not enough T while the HCG will start the testicles and get them going. Whether or not this works is very individualized and not only depends on how long you were shut down, and your age, but also what is the reason in the first place your hypothalmus/pituitary are not working right. So it is a longshot. Usually it's going to be most likely for someone who is shut down due to taking steriods. I don't want to get your hopes up too much but since you are young it may be possible. I know two doctors that may be able to help. Mine is Eugene SHippen in Shillington PA, another is Dr. John Crisler in Lancing Michigan. Last I heard SHippen stopped taking new patients but he has stopped and restarted before. I'm sure there are many other doctors but I don't know them. Dr. Crisler will work with your local doctor as an advisor too I believe. Neither of these guys are cheap and at least Shippen does not take insurance so you have to have $500 to get started you can spend of your own, probably another $500 over the first year.

WHoever you see is probably going to run a lot of tests to see if they can find out why this happened to you at such a young age. If they can figure that out they may know how to fix it or if it can be fixed. By tests, I mean blood tests most likely and possibly the MRI if it can be done. You should get a copy of that cat scan and the report on it from the radiologist.

Any links I have can not be posted in this forum according to the forum rules. Daily shots would be a little unusual if they were T. HCG can be taken daily. T is usually taken once or twice a week. Every 2 weeks is not really often enough for me. The dose would be too high to only take it every 2 weeks. There is one type of T you inject every other day I think but I'm not familiar with it. T cipionate is what most people use. Shots do work better than gel in my opinion for most people. At your age its very possible HCG is all you will need though. HCG is shots but they are very easy to do since it is a watery liquid as opposed to Tcyp which is an oil base. You can give all these shots to yourself though so there is no need to constantly go to the doctor's office. Both Tcyp and HCG are cheap too but since taking it for hypogonadism many insurance plans will cover it.

I understand your frustration with that doctor. Thats why I gave up and decided to travel to see Shippen rather than goof around with docs who either don't know what they are doing are are not interested in this. If you find someone locally, ask if they treat or specialize in hypogonadism. Most Endo's do not. It's a shame this happened to you so young. You are not getting to enjoy what should be the best part of your life physically speaking.

Last edited by hayfarmer; 04-07-2007 at 07:33 AM.

 
Old 04-07-2007, 06:46 PM   #6
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayfarmer View Post
There are various methods to restart the HPTA. One for example could be clomid and HCG at the same time. THe clomid may trick the hypothalmus into thinking there is not enough T while the HCG will start the testicles and get them going. Whether or not this works is very individualized and not only depends on how long you were shut down, and your age, but also what is the reason in the first place your hypothalmus/pituitary are not working right. So it is a longshot. Usually it's going to be most likely for someone who is shut down due to taking steriods. I don't want to get your hopes up too much but since you are young it may be possible.



I understand your frustration with that doctor. Thats why I gave up and decided to travel to see Shippen rather than goof around with docs who either don't know what they are doing are are not interested in this. If you find someone locally, ask if they treat or specialize in hypogonadism. Most Endo's do not. It's a shame this happened to you so young. You are not getting to enjoy what should be the best part of your life physically speaking.
"Shut Down": does that mean low or meaning totally not working?


Hypothetically speaking, if everything is working (just low), and I take HCG, clomid, it "may" make my testosterone go up to ??? what could it go up to possibly? 600, 700, 800, 900?


That is if it were only suppressed and nothing else wrong.

What level would I need to be to feel "good." Enough energy to last me through a 12-16 hour day? Including working-out regularly.

I would not want to get up to say 500ng, and then my Doctor will say, "Your great", no need for anything else. I know someone that is in the low 500's and doesn't feel to good.



Quote:
I know two doctors that may be able to help. Mine is Eugene SHippen in Shillington PA, another is Dr. John Crisler in Lancing Michigan. Last I heard SHippen stopped taking new patients but he has stopped and restarted before. I'm sure there are many other doctors but I don't know them. Dr. Crisler will work with your local doctor as an advisor too I believe. Neither of these guys are cheap and at least Shippen does not take insurance so you have to have $500 to get started you can spend of your own, probably another $500 over the first year.
Dr. Shippen sounds great for me if he could take me, which you don't know. I live in PA. Therefore, it would not be too far.

Is that $1000 total for the year?

What does that include?

I have many tests results in detail.

He wouldn't look over the test results I already took?


Quote:
WHoever you see is probably going to run a lot of tests to see if they can find out why this happened to you at such a young age. If they can figure that out they may know how to fix it or if it can be fixed. By tests, I mean blood tests most likely and possibly the MRI if it can be done. You should get a copy of that cat scan and the report on it from the radiologist.
Like I mentioned above and in previous posts, I have had many tests in great detail, much more than I posted, what else could they test for besides an MRI?
I did have a Cat-Scan, Doc said all was good.

Will any of the two Doctors you mentioned just take a short time to talk to my Doctor(s) if I throw him some Presidents?


Quote:
Daily shots would be a little unusual if they were T. HCG can be taken daily. T is usually taken once or twice a week. Every 2 weeks is not really often enough for me. The dose would be too high to only take it every 2 weeks. There is one type of T you inject every other day I think but I'm not familiar with it. T cipionate is what most people use. Shots do work better than gel in my opinion for most people. At your age its very possible HCG is all you will need though. HCG is shots but they are very easy to do since it is a watery liquid as opposed to Tcyp which is an oil base. You can give all these shots to yourself though so there is no need to constantly go to the doctor's office. Both Tcyp and HCG are cheap too but since taking it for hypogonadism many insurance plans will cover it.
If I do end up having to take shots, which I would prefer now since I have been on the gels and it doesn't do much and is a pain to keep taking every day, not being able to workout until at least 6hrs after, no touching girls when its on, etc. How high will my testosterone get? Say, one shot a week? What would that be a week, 100mg?

Would I take HCG any time during this period just to keep my boys somewhat active?




Thanks again

Last edited by Bonds; 04-08-2007 at 12:20 AM.

 
Old 04-08-2007, 09:47 AM   #7
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

For the hypothalmus/pituitary part of the axis shut down typically is going to mean your LH is below what they can measure at 0.4. For the testicles they may still be making some small amount of T even with little LH stimulation...at least from my experience.

I know Dr. Crisler will consult with your doctors. I don't know if Shippen does that or not and have never asked him. I don't know what Crisler charges because I have never been to him. Shippen charged me $495 for the initial visit which included well over an hour of his timie that he spent with me. For a first visit with him he asks you to write him a letter telling him everything that has happened and include any test results you have. He then will send you a lab order for any tests he wants you to take, usually blood tests. For me he put me on clomid for a week and get off androgel and then take blood tests. The 495 is for his time only. I did the lab work at my insurance's PPO lab so for me it was all 100% covered. I guessed at the 1000 to include a couple more office visits and possibly some drugs you may buy initially until you can get your insurace to start buying them. SOme things like clomid you may never get your insurance to pay for. Office visits after the first are not too bad, like 150 or 170 or something. He is worth the money in my opinion even if you pay it yourself. At youre age you have a lot at stake here.

Have you ever had your SHBG checked? This number would tell me what would be a good intial T level for you to try to get to and see how you feel. My guess is you will need to be at least 600 or more. I take one T cyp shot a week and was running at 750 total T but on the last test was up to 1135 so I am cutting the dose. I was taking 90 mg a week and now am down to 80 mg. I also take HCG so some of my T is from my own body's production. You may find at your age you can get your T up to 700 or more on HCG alone. I'm 47, you're in your 20's so that will help you alot. You would probably start HCG 3 times a week at 300 iu per dose to see how it works. AFter a month you would test you levels to see how you respond to it. The first test is important. Even if your T is not high enough yet a good % jump in T means your leydig cells in your testicles are responding and with more time T may get back to normal with the HCG alone.f

If you call Shippen and he is not taking patients ask if that is forever or if you can try back in a few months. If its not permanent I would call every month. He only schedules 5 months in advance so if he starts taking patients again you might get in fairly quickly.

Last edited by hayfarmer; 04-08-2007 at 09:49 AM.

 
Old 04-08-2007, 06:19 PM   #8
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayfarmer View Post
For the hypothalmus/pituitary part of the axis shut down typically is going to mean your LH is below what they can measure at 0.4. For the testicles they may still be making some small amount of T even with little LH stimulation...at least from my experience.

I know Dr. Crisler will consult with your doctors. I don't know if Shippen does that or not and have never asked him. I don't know what Crisler charges because I have never been to him. Shippen charged me $495 for the initial visit which included well over an hour of his timie that he spent with me. For a first visit with him he asks you to write him a letter telling him everything that has happened and include any test results you have. He then will send you a lab order for any tests he wants you to take, usually blood tests. For me he put me on clomid for a week and get off androgel and then take blood tests. The 495 is for his time only. I did the lab work at my insurance's PPO lab so for me it was all 100% covered. I guessed at the 1000 to include a couple more office visits and possibly some drugs you may buy initially until you can get your insurace to start buying them. SOme things like clomid you may never get your insurance to pay for. Office visits after the first are not too bad, like 150 or 170 or something. He is worth the money in my opinion even if you pay it yourself. At youre age you have a lot at stake here.

Have you ever had your SHBG checked? This number would tell me what would be a good intial T level for you to try to get to and see how you feel. My guess is you will need to be at least 600 or more. I take one T cyp shot a week and was running at 750 total T but on the last test was up to 1135 so I am cutting the dose. I was taking 90 mg a week and now am down to 80 mg. I also take HCG so some of my T is from my own body's production. You may find at your age you can get your T up to 700 or more on HCG alone. I'm 47, you're in your 20's so that will help you alot. You would probably start HCG 3 times a week at 300 iu per dose to see how it works. AFter a month you would test you levels to see how you respond to it. The first test is important. Even if your T is not high enough yet a good % jump in T means your leydig cells in your testicles are responding and with more time T may get back to normal with the HCG alone.f

If you call Shippen and he is not taking patients ask if that is forever or if you can try back in a few months. If its not permanent I would call every month. He only schedules 5 months in advance so if he starts taking patients again you might get in fairly quickly.

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin = 25 {7-44 NMOL/L}


Not from same date/test:
Not sure what this is: Immunoglobulin D, Quant, Serum - 1.3 mg/dl {0.0-14.)}


From another test: this is when my test. was the highest measured, 430ng/dL

SHBG, Serum = 26 nmol/L {13-71}


I will give your Doctor a call to see what's up.

I will also talk to my regular Doctor and my Endo about this treatment. I prefer trying the HCG, Clomid, and whatever other drug that is needed to see if my "REAL" testosterone can get back up to the high range, and hopefully stay there.




Quote:
I know Dr. Crisler will consult with your doctors.
I would have to fly to Michagen to see him first, correct?

Or could I just contact him, send him my results, pay the bill for his time, etc.?


For Shippen, if he is taking patients, I would have to wait 5 months to see him, and 5 months between visits?



I wonder why more Endos aren't using HCG, Clomid, etc. for treatment of Secondary Hypo.

I just read another article that stated this was the treatment that is used, although it was from a Doctor who treats steroid patients who become hypo. But even still, it shows that you can restart your system, so why not at least try it.


Part of my problem might be from not eating a whole lot, which may have hurt me during puberty, but I am not sure my digestion of foods is all that great. I don't really get hungry either.

I read that Testosterone is needed to help digestion.

Last edited by Bonds; 04-08-2007 at 06:27 PM.

 
Old 04-08-2007, 07:36 PM   #9
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

For your SHBG level Dr. Shippen would try to get you to 650 total T as an initial target and then see how you feel. At least that's my guess, maybe he would shoot higher since you are young, I don't know.

You may not have to see Crisler for him to work with your doctor...I don't know. I think he does phone consulatations too. If Shippen sees you I bet you only have to wait 2-3 monts to get in.

 
Old 04-10-2007, 11:09 AM   #10
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hayfarmer View Post
For your SHBG level Dr. Shippen would try to get you to 650 total T as an initial target and then see how you feel. At least that's my guess, maybe he would shoot higher since you are young, I don't know.

You may not have to see Crisler for him to work with your doctor...I don't know. I think he does phone consulatations too. If Shippen sees you I bet you only have to wait 2-3 monts to get in.
I just e-mailed Crisler, so I will see what happens.

I will talk to my regular Doctor tomorrow and then try to contact Shippen.


Do you know anybody else that has been placed on HCG and clomid that it worked, besides steroid users?
Young people, not older (who will be declining anyway)

In my case: I am 25, and everything is still working, just low.


If I did take HCG and clomid, how long do you think it would take to get my levels up?

Would it be continued treatment forever or could it possibly work after some treatments then no all better?


Worse case scenario: if I have to take testosterone the rest of my life, Test shots are better than the Gels?

Gels still shut you down, right?

 
Old 04-10-2007, 03:52 PM   #11
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Re: Advice needed about taking Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG)

The only people I'm aware of that have been able to "restart" were one's who had taken steroids and screwed themselves up. But I only get that from reading other forums. I think at age 25 its worth a try even if it does not work. The HCG and clomid should work pretty fast. But if your already have atrophy of the testicles from taking T replacement it can take longer because the leydig cells have to regenerate. How long vary's from person to person. From a week to 6 months.

I have been on both T shots (T cipionate) and androgel. I by far prefer the way I feel on the shots. Plus they are much cheaper although in my case about the same after insurance. Both shut down the testicles and HPTA. Any T replacement will do that. HCG will prevent it. IF you can not restart I would try HCG alone first. If that does not get your levels high enough (and I would be surprised if it didnt) then I would add T cyp shots and continue the HCG although at a low dose. This way you keep your testicles working and probably remain fertile if you ever want to have children.

Last edited by hayfarmer; 04-10-2007 at 03:53 PM.

 
Old 04-12-2007, 04:56 AM   #12
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Re: Please remember to start your own thread for your own questions.

(He actually looked at me and said I looked fine. He commented, "I know what you came in here for)


How ignorant! The normal range is between 250 and 1100. I would imagine bodybuilders and general steriod users would be way above 1100. You were just asking to get your range in the upper end to feel better. I sure hope my endo does not act like this. You should have refused to pay for the visit. Good luck with your next Endo.

 
Old 04-27-2007, 01:30 PM   #13
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Re: Please remember to start your own thread for your own questions.

edit, edit, edit

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