It appears you have not yet Signed Up with our community. To Sign Up for free, please click here....



Pain Management Message Board

  • Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

  • Post New Thread   Closed Thread
    Thread Tools Search this Thread
    Old 05-20-2004, 09:41 AM   #31
    Shoreline
    Senior Veteran
    (male)
     
    Join Date: Jun 2003
    Posts: 3,519
    Shoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB User
    Re: Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

    Hey Ken, MellenKrodt is both a pharmacuetical wholesaler, meaning they produce bulk meth , bulk morphine, and other bulk active ingredients for sale to other manufacturers that produce pills for retail sale. Mellenkrodt also has a retail division with a huge generic line where they produce and compound their bulk drugs into pills for retail sale. The generic methadone pill that Mellenkrodt produces for sale is called Methadose. Methadose is not a name brand drug. It's a generic equivelent to Dolophine.

    It's no different than a company using a trade name like Roxicet for Percocet. Dolophine is the name brand methadone that generics are supposed to be equivelent to. Because Roxane makes the name brand Dolophine, their generic line is much closer as far as any variation of the amount of active ingredient. It would be hard to explain why 4 10 mg generic Roxane meth tabs didn't provide the same relief as 1 40mg Dolophine diskette since they all come from the same company.

    The name can be different as long as it has the correct amount of active ingredient to be considered a generic equivelent is in the tablet, capsule or liquid. If the doc writes a script for Percocet and checks generic, You may get Roxicet, Endocet, or something without a trade name like
    Oxy 5/325.

    Mellenkrodt is the only bulk producer of methadone in the country, so they sell bulk Methadone HCL to Roxanne to compound into their generic 5mg and 10mg methadone tablets and the name brand Dolophine diskettes. But all the meth in the US comes from Mellenkrodt and is then compounded and marketed by other manufacturers

    The difference is that the FDA allows a certain percentage of variation in the amount of active ingredient and still calls it equivelent. After going through withdrawal the first time I had to accept the Methadose tablets from the pharmacy, I had my brother who was Qualtity control for Bayer's special blood products annalyze a Methadose tablet. It came back at 8.2 mgs of methadone HCL. Within the FDA's allowable guidelines to still be labeled a 10mg tablet.

    The guidlines allow a +15% or -20% variation in active ingredient and still allows the maufacturer to call it a generic equivelent. So any 10mg tablet of any drug could contain betwen 8.0 mgs of active ingredient and 11.5 mgs of active ingredient. This is why cardiologist don't allow their patients to take generics of certain medications. Because they know they are not all created equal.

    If your dose is low, loosing a few mgs isn't going to cause a huge problem. But my dose is 150 mgs a day. If I use the Mellenkrodt Methadose I would only get 123 mgs of methadone per day. If Roxane is on the high side of 10 mgs the gap between both products could be as much as 35%. More than enough to cause someone to experience withdrawal.

    If you stick with one product, and Roxxane is hard to stick with because amazingly, the only bulk producer of meth in the country has managed to capture 90% of the entire meth retail market.

    Hmm. Sounds like a monopoly to me. Slow distribution of bulk meth to your competitors and the company that relies on Mellenkrodt for raw material can no longer fulfill their obligations to the retailers , so retailers change vendors to ensure a constant supply of methadone tablets, whether they are called methadose or methadone. Mellenkrodt can certainly gaurentee on hand quantities when they are the only producer of meth in the country.

    The descision to put 8.2 mgs or 10 mgs into each pill is still up to the manufacturer of each tablet as long as they stay within the variations that the FDA allows. Meth is dirt cheap but if you can get an extra pill out of every 50 mgs of meth that's a 20% increase in product using the same amount of raw material.

    I went through the same withdrawal a few months ago when I couldn't find anyone with the quantity of Roxane meth I needed. Fortuantely a mom and pop took the mellencrap back and replaced it with Roxxane methadone. Did all that make sense Ken?
    If you start with Methadose, just stick with it and you won't notice a difference, because you will have had nothing to compare it too. Personally I would recomend using the Roxanne but there is no gaurentee you will be able to find a constant supply, and going through withdrawal every other month just isn't worth it.
    Take care, Dave

    Last edited by Shoreline; 05-20-2004 at 09:51 AM.

     
    Sponsors Lightbulb
       
    Old 05-20-2004, 11:15 AM   #32
    khoff
    Senior Member
     
    khoff's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Jan 2003
    Location: princeton, nj
    Posts: 189
    khoff HB User
    Re: Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

    Dave -

    Actually yes, I did understand everything you said. And with that, I called pharmacies that are in my plan to find what they carry and the cost. Eckerds does not carry methadone, but CVS does. In fact CVS has all the brand and generics (liquid and oral). I called in Va and asked the CVS ther how much a months worth of meth would cost (assuming 90 - 5mg tabs or 15mg/day) and they said cash cost is around $13.00.
    I checked with other CVS stores in other states, and they were exactly the same. So far looks good. When I see my PM doc next week he will probably Rx meth at 5mg/3x to start. I was concerned by a prior post by DaveARNP that said meth is 8 to 10 times stronger than oxy so I will need to be very careful. The narcotic equiv chart shows is at a 1 to 1.5 conversion. So that still leads me to be a little confused on actual strength comparison.


    Thanks as always,
    Ken

     
    Old 05-20-2004, 12:31 PM   #33
    Shoreline
    Senior Veteran
    (male)
     
    Join Date: Jun 2003
    Posts: 3,519
    Shoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB UserShoreline HB User
    Re: Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

    Hey Ken, The most recent articles I read about meth used for chronic pain do admit that the conversion charts we have seen are not acurate as far as meth. They are simply a single dose compairson. But from what I have read, Most researchers think meth is 5-10 times stronger than Morphine. When I swithced from 120mgs of meth I got better relief at 600 mgs of morphine which was 5x the dose.

    Oxy is even stronger than morphine so I don't think I would agree that meth is 8-10 times stronger than Oxy. Now if you using Oxy to try to deter meth withdrawal, which won't work as I described in my new thread to Farmboy, I could see where a misinformed doc would continously increase oxy as they decrease meth to avoid withdrawal, you could easily inflate your oxy dose needlessly.

    You also have to remeber How meth works. The half life is 24-30 hours
    Day one you take 15 mgs
    Day 2 you take 15 plus have 7.5 left from the previous day=22.5,
    Day 3 you take 15, have 7.5 from the previous day and have 3.75 from the first=27.25
    Day 4 you take 15 mgs have 7.5 from the day before, 3.75 from the day before that and 1.8mg from the first=29mgs
    This becomes you stable dose after 4-5 days, so you actually have twice as much in your system than you take every day.

    What was your old dose of oxy. What it takes to prevent withdrawal andwhat it takes for anelgesia will be two different numbers, so even if you conversion looks a bit low switching too Methadone, It would still likely prevent you from experincing withdrawal from switching from oxy.

    I actually started on Oxy and switched from 120mgs of Oxy to 60 mgs of meth as my starting dose.I experienced no withdrawal but the oxy had never managed my pain and I changed docs as my insurnace plan changed. My new doc didn't have a problem increasing my dose untill I was comfortable and more functional and I ended up at 120 mgs of meth
    1:1 and stayed there for 3 years.Convertting too meth from oxy can be one factor and converting from meth to oxy can be a completely different factor but 10 times stronger than Oxy sounds very extreme and I've never seen it in any print but everyone responds differently.

    You are sounding more confident about moving to Charlottesville. We don't have CVS here. When Revco was sold it was broken up between Eckerds and CVS. I can get Roxanne from Eckerds here but they use a local jobber to supply their C-2's, I imagine my back up mom and pop store uses the same Jobber.

    Good luck, Dave

     
    Old 05-20-2004, 02:16 PM   #34
    khoff
    Senior Member
     
    khoff's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Jan 2003
    Location: princeton, nj
    Posts: 189
    khoff HB User
    Re: Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

    Hey Dave -

    I am now taking about 40-50mg of oxy a day (20mg oxy/2x + 10mg or more perc for BT). It is hard with this med to get stable dosing since my doc doesn't want to Rx it except small doses. Hence, methadone.

    Wouldn't meth at 5mg/3x day be similar?

    Also, I read your other post to FB7. Not being on meth before so not having to go thru any withdrawl, I am confused. I remember being on an antidepressant for several years. When I discontinued, it took a few months going down in small doses. Granted it is not methadone, but couldn't someone just titrate down to not have withdrawl? Or is withdrawl inherent when deciding to stop or switch to another med?

    Thanks
    Ken

    P.S. - Charlottesville is looking better by the day !

     
    Old 05-22-2004, 04:48 AM   #35
    DannDees
    Senior Member
    (female)
     
    DannDees's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Apr 2004
    Posts: 161
    DannDees HB User
    Re: Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

    sorry but I feel I need to pop in here.
    Ken, reading the withdraws of methadone is a whole different story then experiencing them. There was nothing anyone could have told me to prepare me for them. I do not recomend them unless you plan never stopping. I am not going to sugar coat it like a dr. did for me. They say muscle spasms, ha, more like a total loss control over your legs and arms, they fly out of control and the flying comes with severe pain. sleepless nights, ha, ya you can't sleep but along with no sleep your mind just runs and runs and you have no control over it either. You feel like you are literally going insane. Something noone mentions is an overall feeling you get under your skin, scariest sh** I have ever experienced.thought I was dying and my soul was trying to get out of my skin. This is not something I wish on anyone. I am not trying to tell you not to use it. That is your desicion but I had wished someone would have told me this before I started taking methadone.

    I have not took a pill since april 15th and I still replay the nightmare over and over in my head and my sleep is still not normal. I went to bed at 1am and was up at 4:30. I do get some normal nights sleep but not always yet.

    They say it has no long term effects, I wonder if anyone did a study on the brain..My short term memory is shot..I was only on 10mg a day for 2years.

    Just a heads up, I wish I was warned. IMO methadone should be either for life or not at all..but just my opinion

     
    Old 05-22-2004, 05:17 AM   #36
    no patience
    Senior Veteran
     
    no patience's Avatar
     
    Join Date: Apr 2004
    Location: massachusetts
    Posts: 859
    no patience HB User
    Re: Shore - ??? on switching to Methadone

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DannDees
    sorry but I feel I need to pop in here.
    Ken, reading the withdraws of methadone is a whole different story then experiencing them. There was nothing anyone could have told me to prepare me for them. I do not recomend them unless you plan never stopping. I am not going to sugar coat it like a dr. did for me. They say muscle spasms, ha, more like a total loss control over your legs and arms, they fly out of control and the flying comes with severe pain. sleepless nights, ha, ya you can't sleep but along with no sleep your mind just runs and runs and you have no control over it either. You feel like you are literally going insane. Something noone mentions is an overall feeling you get under your skin, scariest sh** I have ever experienced.thought I was dying and my soul was trying to get out of my skin. This is not something I wish on anyone. I am not trying to tell you not to use it. That is your desicion but I had wished someone would have told me this before I started taking methadone.

    I have not took a pill since april 15th and I still replay the nightmare over and over in my head and my sleep is still not normal. I went to bed at 1am and was up at 4:30. I do get some normal nights sleep but not always yet.

    They say it has no long term effects, I wonder if anyone did a study on the brain..My short term memory is shot..I was only on 10mg a day for 2years.

    Just a heads up, I wish I was warned. IMO methadone should be either for life or not at all..but just my opinion
    i agree deanndees don't you love how the internet info and the dr say there is yawning involved that's my favorite it's more like dragging yourself around by your arms because you have no energy what so ever when nothing was working for my pain my dr said if he put me back on it i would be a lifer like you i wish i was worned before i went on this drug to and i relive the awful nightmare everyday it's just something we will never forget i also still suffer from coming off it i feel like the methadone took apart of me with it and you have to learn alot of things over again like coping w/pain and with life situations that the methadone masked i to believe now that if anyone goes on methadone they should stay on it or not go on it at all our experience was a true to life nightmare i'm sorry to here your still suffering but so happy you made it this far i miss ya have'nt chatted in awhile pop me a post once in awhile ok hugs and prayers kelleigh

    Last edited by no patience; 05-22-2004 at 05:19 AM.

     
    Closed Thread

    Related Topics
    Thread Thread Starter Board Replies Last Post
    ??? about switching from Oxicontin to Methadone absmom Pain Management 6 10-07-2005 10:40 PM
    Hi Shore, old Friend. Questions, Please?? lindao1 Pain Management 14 04-07-2004 05:50 AM




    Thread Tools Search this Thread
    Search this Thread:

    Advanced Search

    Posting Rules
    You may not post new threads
    You may not post replies
    You may not post attachments
    You may not edit your posts

    BB code is On
    Smilies are On
    [IMG] code is Off
    HTML code is Off
    Trackbacks are Off
    Pingbacks are Off
    Refbacks are Off




    Sign Up Today!

    Ask our community of thousands of members your health questions, and learn from others experiences. Join the conversation!

    I want my free account

    All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:54 AM.





    © 2020 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved.
    Do not copy or redistribute in any form!