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    Old 12-15-2004, 09:28 PM   #1
    westin4
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    To Shore or anyone who can help....

    I posted about a week or so ago and switching from Norco 7.5/325 to Vicoprofen 7.5/200. Well, after a few days I really started getting medicine head from the Vico so my dr switched me back yesterday. Here is my question..........he told me if I need better relief I could take 2 Norco at once. I did try this and it really gave me that pain relief that I need. It did make me extremely tired though, I mean stone, cold drugged. Here is what I tried today.......I took a whole pill at 8am then I cut the second one half,. It took one half at 9 am and then the other half at 9:30am. That way I took the 2 I just spaced them out so they didn't "punch" me. For the life of me I don't know why people like that feeling. Is it ok to take the 2 this way?

    Thanks as always guys!

    Karen

     
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    Old 12-16-2004, 01:36 PM   #2
    Streetcar
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    Re: To Shore or anyone who can help....

    Hi Karen,

    The answer to your question depends on your Dr. If it's OK with your dr., I would take 1 every half of whatever period your dr RXd. Say if you could take two every six hours, then I would see about taking 1 every three hrs. and if you could take 2 every four hrs then try 1 every two hours. That is of course if it's ok with your dr and the total # of pills works out so that your ok at the end of the month. A RX for 120 pills for the month would give four per day to work with and you would have to stay within that however you took them. I hope that made sense.
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    Ken
    Peripheral Neuropathy, Chronic Pain, IBS-C, Esophageal Spasms

     
    Old 12-17-2004, 05:56 AM   #3
    Shoreline
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    Re: To Shore or anyone who can help....

    HI Karen, That drugged feeling is exactly what addicts are looking for, the problem is they have to continually increase the dose to maintain that drugged feeling. CP patients stay at the same dose long after that drugged feeling deminsihes. YOu don't have to feel drugged to get the anelgesic benefits. Those side effects should deminish with time. You may have gotten tremendous relief, much more than you would once you become acommadated to it but you can't function that way?.

    Part of the drugged feeling is euphoria and a false sense of well being. If someone associates that feeling with pain relief, the only time they think they are getting pain relief is when they are "drugged". I've seen 2 people die in the last 18 months doing exactly that. Both cases were a combinatin of opiates, benzos and alcohol and this is how they dealt with their BT pain every night. They came home from work and anything goes all in the name of justifying trying to manage pain.

    It didn't happen quickly with both these guys, I'm talking over several years of problems with addiction, jail, rehab etc but they always came back. The most recent was someone that had back surgery at Mayo to relive their pain. He lived her an was on a reltively high dose of meds, they moved to Indiana, found a doc to double the dose he was on here.

    Then he had surgery, the doc tapered him down from 150mgs of meth and 360 norco a day to only 4 norco a day. He had been doing well for 2 months but I guess had a flair up and felt he could tolerate his old dose of meds after several months without the huge doses. Add some alcohol and his wife found him blue on the living room floor the next morning. 29 years old and a 3 month old baby. I've seen this way too many times so if I come across harsh about abuse of meds or compliance, there is a reason.

    This guy that died, had a system of taking his meds. He would eat all his BT meds the first week, they were the most fun, double his dose of base meds the second 2 weeks and then fight the withdrawal the last week with an entire months supply of Xanax from his shrink his PM doc wasn't aware of.

    Add alcohol and you never kow when you will end up 6 ft under. JUst because someone got through it a dozen times and it didn't kill them doesn't mean it won't on the 13th time. After 2 months of beig fairly sobor, he thought the old dose he used to take would still be safe and he drank on top of whatever he had stashed or got from the street and that was the end of another life.

    Doubling your dose is a big step. Instead of taking 2 at a time, you sort of have the right idea, but pain management isn't about having to take 3 doses of meds in a 4 hour perriod, it turns into when am I not taking a med for pain. Personally I would try 1&1/2 norco every 4 hours if it's prescribed Q4, If it's prescribed 2 tablets Q 6, than your riding that roller coaster because no SA med lasts 6 hours.

    I would love to see these surgeons that prescribe Q 6 have surgery and at the 4 hour mark be told you have to wait 2 more hours, because that's how the doc prescribed it. Streetcar has the right idea about taking 1 every 3 rather than 2 every 6 that knocks you on your hiney. But like she said, you need your doc to OK the new plan, and no PM doc is going to OK 18 seperate doses per day. You just can't live a normal life if it's always time to take another pain pill.

    1 every 3 hours instead of 2 every 6 will maintain an even serum level without the roller coaster of one pill wearing off and than waiting untill the next dose and then waiting for it to start working. You have the right idea about stopping the punch from a single large dose but the constant redosing never allows you to concentrate on anything but the pain and when is it time to take another pill.

    If you Kept that patern going it would look like this
    1 at 8am ,
    1/2 at 9am
    1/2 at 930am
    1 at 12pm
    1/2 at 1pm
    1/2 at 1:30pm
    1 at 4pm,
    1/2 at 5pm
    1/2 at 5:30pm
    1at 8pm
    1/2 at 9pm
    1/2 at 9:30
    1 at 12am
    1/2 at 1am
    1/2 at 1:30am
    1 at 4am
    1/2 at 5am
    1/2 at 5:30/pm
    When exactly do you sleep, eat, work, or do anythig when the entire day revolves around a strange and constant redosing schedule. At best your going 2 &1/2 hours between doses. How can you do anything if it's always time to take a pill. You can't put the pain on the back burner and think about function or do anything except wait for the next dose and wonder when did I take the last whole pill?

    What about the other meds? IT has you focused on taking pain pills 18 times in a 24 hour perriod, 3 doses in every 4 hour perriod. 18 doses a day is not the way to put pain on the back burner and move on with life. IF you take any other meds which is very likely, life revolves entirely around med taking and that isn't the way to benefit from opiates or to improve function. It may be a great way to eliminate all pain for a few days but that 100% relief won't last long before you have to make an adjustment or add something else to maintain that level of relief and that level of being whacked.

    IF you jump right to 2 pills every 4 hours, you skipped the posibility of keeping your tolerance down and still getting relief without the drugged feeling, What if 1&1/2 every 4 hours works, without the drug feeling, you could maintain a steady level and focus on more than when is the next dose and what is it? why skip the entire step and double the dose if less will work and leave you more alert and functional?

    The whole ideas of LA meds is to be able to stop clock watching and trying to cram some activity into the 2 peak hours of short acting meds and beig sure you back in a place you get that next dose. I'm not sayng go to LA meds, but that's the major benefit. IF you can manage with SA meds for now I would stick with them, BUt be sure not to make any connection between the drugged feeling and trying to obtain complete relief.

    If it was 2 days post op, that would be a different story, post op pain can be treated a little more agressively but for a short perriod of time. But what kind of life will a CP patient have when they have to find time to squeeze in 18 doses of pain meds a day.
    I agree with street car, I doubt your doc wants you taking pain pills 18 times a day. It's almost imposible to seperate your pain from your daily life or have a life that doesn't revolve around taking an opiate and watching the clock for your next dose.

    A honeymoon after a dose increase isn't uncommon, but you don't want to follow the path that addicts do, chasing that honeymoon with an increase every 2 weeks to keep that drugged feeling or become a CP patient that associates being drugged with pain relief. Obviously you can't function like that and when the meds hinder function more than thy help, you cross the line of the meds being beneficial.
    JMO God luck, Dave

     
    Old 12-17-2004, 09:24 AM   #4
    westin4
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    Re: To Shore or anyone who can help....

    Ken Dave and gremlin:

    I appreciate all of the info and I DO NOT want to get caught in some pill trap. I cannot stand to live my life in pain nor can I stand to live it tied to some pill bottle.

    Let me tell you a little more about my situation....................

    First, I did adjust the meds and took 1 Norco and then 2 hours later I took the second one. Then I waited 4 hours from the second one and took 1 Norco and then 2 hours later I took another. I only take a total of 4 a day. I don't keep the schedule up all day long. So usually I take the first one around 9am....another one at 11am.......1 at 3pm and then the last one for the day around 5pm.

    Thankfully, I am doing ok on this amount of medication. I also take muscle relaxers in this time frame. Hopefully, this will keep my pain in some type of control.

    Now, that being said, from years of being told nothing was wrong with me, I couldn't possibly be in this kind of pain when nothing "shows" up...and being treated like a pill seeker I developed severe anxiety/panic disorder.

    I have been taking Xanax/trazadone for this for 8 years, especially at bedtime because I don't sleep without it.

    Both prescribing dr's know the meds I am taking from the other, I would not go down that road. I don't take any pain meds after 6 pm because I have to take my anxiety meds at bedtime.

    Here is the clencher.........Now that somebody finally listened to me and has gotten my pain under control and has acknowledged that I do indeed have a severe tmj condition.............my anxiety has gone from a 10 to about a 2!!! I am now only taking a half a xanax at bedtime and a half a trazadone. This change has taken place after 8 years of being on a whole pill of each. See, the whole time pain was my problem, not anxiety,. The pain was causing the anxiety. Idiot dr's always tried to tell me that the anxiety was causing "phantom" pain! UGH! all the years wasted. I always knew that the pain came about 5 years before the anxiety!

    I have been more than honest with every dr and it has taken me 14 years to get on some kind of pain management schedule.

    My dentist flat out told me that in dental school they are told that if someone's tmj doesn't clear up right away with a splint then they are more than likely looking for pills..........can you imagine. He said, sadly, that most dentists and dr's just live in that mindset and don't think about the patient as an individual!!!

    Hey, thanks guys..........you all are a wealth of info.

    Dave, thanks for all the time and info you put into helping us all here. You are so much more helpful than dr's and pharmacists.......you know and you care......great man!

    Karen

     
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