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  • I finally decided to try Subutex.

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    Old 02-21-2010, 10:48 PM   #1
    a55telly
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    I finally decided to try Subutex.

    I too am taking oxycodone 10-325 - for about 4-5 years (at about 45mg 4 x day). I have not only reached my tolerance level but have surpassed it.....and I feel lousy much of the time. The prescribing doctor is my primary care doctor and admittedly he is not up to snuff on pain management, nor do I think he wants to be. He's at a point where he won't adjust my dose no matter whether I've reached a tolerance to it or not. He seems to be comfortable that I'm not abusing them but he would rather have me find another doctor to deal with the meds. A little warning...it may be difficult to find a pain management doctor who merely manages pain medication. I have been calling doctors for weeks and weeks. Most of the PM doctors want to give trigger point injections, etc. and let you sit in pain while you wait to see if they work.

    I finally decided to try Subutex. I was very happy to speak to a doctor's office where they purportedly were willing to prescribe the Subutex. A long ride, a lot of time, and $200 later, I was flatly told that the doctor only prescribes Subutex to pregnant women or people who are coming off of methadone. What a letdown!! I've now found another doctor who says she is willing to prescribe the Subutex. I hope and pray she keeps her word when the time comes.

    A WARNING FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW: The difference between Suboxone and Subutex is that Suboxone contains Noloxone, an opiate blocker. To take Suboxone, you first have to go 24 hours without taking any opiates - good luck if you've been on them for any length of time! I understand that the Suboxone initially can make the withdrawal symptoms even worse. In addition, if you intend to go back on opiates after successfullly lowering your tolerance to them, it will take a while to get the Suboxone (and the opiate blocker) out of your system. If you take opiates while Suboxone is still in your system, it will not have the desired effect and could make life miserable for you. That happened to my husband and he was sick as a dog for days on end. However, prior to the Suboxone/Subutex pills coming onto the market, my husband went to a doctor who was conducting the trial on the Subutex generic for getting off of methadone. It worked like a charm and he felt great from day one until he was completely detoxed from the methadone.

    Good luck to you. I can't wait to try the Subutex and maybe start feeling like a normal person again!!!

     
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    Old 02-22-2010, 04:02 AM   #2
    Ilovemycutedog
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    Re: Please help....I don't know what to do....

    I'm confused about your dosing A55...you say you are oxycodone 10/325..(generic for Percocet)...
    and you take 45 mg...which would be 4 and a half tablets...4 times a day? That would be 18 pills a day? That is 5,850mg of acetaminophen which is way over the limit into toxic levels for your liver..
    Also..your Dr. is comfortable prescribing 540 Percocets each month? The usually limit for that each day is 8 max in a 24 hour period...

    I can tell you that you probably won't find any other Dr. to do what this Dr. is doing which is negligence and complete lack of understanding of pain medicine..

    I am NOT saying that you don't have legitimate pain..I'm saying that I would immediately get my liver panels checked since as I stated..you are at a deadly level if taken for weeks/months...


    After you start needing more than 5-6 immediate release tablets a day..over a period of a few months...then the next step is for a Dr. to put you on a extended release medicine...

    I am sad to see a Dr. like this practice medicine if this is the way he prescribes to you...his license should be pulled..

    I hope you find a much better Dr. that moves you to an appropriate dosing quickly..

    Take care

     
    Old 02-27-2010, 02:57 PM   #3
    a55telly
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    Re: Please help....I don't know what to do....

    FYI - There is Oxycodone that contains tylenol (i.e., percocet), then there is Oxycodone that does not contain tylenol. My primary physician gives me about 300 a month which keeps me within the safe limits and I do have blood work done on a regular basis. I agree that he should have given me a longer acting medication, but he doesn't want to increase my dose no matter whether it's giving me a strong long acting med or more short acting meds. He would just love it if I could get along with taking a bunch of over the counter meds - but my pain is too severe and chronic. I appreciate your thoughts - good advice.

    I just can't believe how hard it is to find someone who is willing to help. I have called detox facilities and methadone clinics so I can perhaps get off of this stuff - even if only temporarily. Every one has told me that they don't deal with chronic pain patients - only with drug abusers. So one has to become an abuser to get help??? I find that to be a really sad state of affairs. Fortunately, I have found another doctor who says she is willing to give me Subutex. I have an appointment next week. Wish me luck.

    Thanks for your thoughts!!

    Last edited by Administrator; 05-31-2011 at 02:34 PM.

     
    Old 03-01-2010, 12:33 PM   #4
    Leo123
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    Re: Please help....I don't know what to do....

    a55telly,

    (Before reading this: Just a note Tylenol, Acetaminophen, and APAP are all the same thing)

    You said you take Oxycondone 10-325, when someone says they take that, FYI it means that you are taking percocet or generic percocet and it means 10mg Oxycondone and 325mg Acetaminophen or APAP (Tylenol).

    Now if you were just taking Oxycodone 10mg's, then you would just say Oxycodone 10mg, 5mg, 15mg, or 30mg's (Depending on the strength of straight Oxy you are taking, in the states straight Oxy come in those 4 strengths). But the second you said you take Oxycodone 10-325, that means you were taking Oxycodone mixed with something and based on the number being 325, the only combo Oxy that comes with the milligrams mixed at a dose of 10-325 is percocet or generic percocet.

    FYI (Also) - Your bottle may not say generic percocet it may just say Oxycodone 10mg-325mg Apap, which mean again that you are taking Generic Percocet, which of course contains Tylenol.

    So beleive it or not this whole time you have been taking alot of Tylenol if indeed as you stated below you are taking 300 of 10-325 preparation. So if your taking about ten pills a day you are taking 3,250mg of APAP (tylenol) and the max daily recomended is about 2,000mg's (2 grams) per day.

    So which is it are you just taking Oxycodone 10mg or does your bottle say 10-325, cause if it does you are taking Oxy with Tylenol.

    Hope this helps!

    Last edited by Leo123; 03-01-2010 at 04:17 PM.

     
    Old 03-01-2010, 04:25 PM   #5
    Leo123
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    Re: Please help....I don't know what to do....

    a55telly,

    I think I see what you are saying now, if my below reply was not correct, are you saying you take Oxycodone 10-325 (Percocet) about 300 and month and in addition your doc gives you straight Oxycodone.

    SO between the combo of the 10-325's and whatever other Oxy strength he perscribed for you, that you take a total Oxycodone strength of 45mg 4X daily and of that about 10 pills per day are percocet and the balance is just straight Oxy.

    or where you just saying that you take Oxy 10-325 and that you think this means Oxy without Tylenol.

    Sorry if I misunderstood, but I can see if you indeed take the 10-325 as you stated below and you say your total oxy intake is 45mg 4X per day, I could see the concern that you are taking way too much Tylenol as he assumed as did I, that you are taking about 18 of the 10-325 per day (to get a dosing of Oxycodone of 45mg 4x daily) which is a whole lot of tylenol.

    Hope that my new assumption is correct, but still even 10 of 10-325's per day is kinda of on the high side for tylenol intake. As long as your doctor is doing frequent bloodworks like you say and he is making sure your liver is in good working order than that is good. Some people can handle 4grams of Tylenol a day and some may get liver damage from only 1 gram a day over a period of time, it varies person to person.

    Last edited by Administrator; 05-31-2011 at 02:31 PM.

     
    Old 03-02-2010, 09:19 PM   #6
    Leo123
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    Re: I finally decided to try Subutex.

    Telly,

    On another note just in case you find a doc to prescribe you Subutex, make sure you wait at least 24 to 36 hours prior to your last dose of full agonist opiates before you take the subutex.

    Just because subutex does not contain naxolone subutex is still an agonist/antigonist opiate and if you have a large dose of full agonist opiates on your receptors and then you take the subutex the antigonist part of the drug will kick off all the opiates from your receptors and through you into withdrawals

    The reason the make suboxone is not to prevent you from taking other opiates while on it, because with both subutex and suboxone taking opiates is a no no. If you take opiates while on the subutex or suboxone you just will likely not feel any affect from the opiates as it will act as an opiate blocker, but again vice versa if you take the subutex or suboxone while still on opiates you will go into withdrawl.

    Anyways the reason they make the suboxone preparation is that so people will not try to snort or shoot up the pill, if you try to do that with the suboxone it will throw you into immediate withdrawl as the only wasy to bipass the naxolone in the pill is through sublingal ingestion. (Under the toungue)

    So again if taken under the tongue or even swallowed the Naxolone will have not affect on you as it won't survive the time it takes for you body to make it passed the blood-brain barrier. The only way to activate the Naxolone is by shooting it straight into your bloodstream or possibly by snorting it.

    On account that subutex and suboxone is primarily designed to treat opiate addicts and as many addicts like heroin addicts or even people who abuse precscription pills try to shoot up or snort their pills they made suboxone so that the addicts won't continue their addict behavior by snorting or shooting up, because of course doing so with suboxone will put them in withdrawls.

    The main drug in subutex and suboxone is Benoprene (spell?) And Benoprene is like half opiate and half not.

    So remember if you get subutex or suboxone make sure you wait 36 hours and it will work best. Actually you want to feel like your in withdrawl before taking either one and it will work best, if you can try to wait even 48 hours from your last dose of opiates. Otherwise you might feel anywhere from a little uncomfortable too very uncomfortable for about a week until your body adjusts. Once you cause a withdrawl from the benoprene even if its a slight withdrawl you can "NOT" correct it by taking more subutex, it usually takes from 3 - 7 days to feel good again.

    Its hard to explain just trust me wait till you are a few hours into your withdrawl before taking subutex. (Your pupils should be very dialated (large), you should have some bodily discomfort, maybe slight chills and then hot flashes) The more in withdrawl you are the better the Subutex will make you feel. So even wait 24 hours from the time you hit withdrawl if you can hack it out.

    The point being is that you want your Brain Opiate receptors to be as bare as possible, if some of your receptors are still filled with opiates the subutex will interact badly with it. So remember as Long as Possible, So that the subutex will be free to fill as many bare receptors as possible.

    You can read on any website what I'm saying about the subutex or suboxone.

    Good Luck!!

    Last edited by Leo123; 03-03-2010 at 08:20 AM.

     
    Old 03-04-2010, 02:54 PM   #7
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    Re: Please help....I don't know what to do....

    I have taken vic 10/325 for about 5 yrs. Usually between 12-18 a day. I had my liver checked and everything is fine. All my numbers are good. My blood pressure has risen over the years but still in a good range. I am very lucky I haven't done more damage to myself. Although I had a friend of mine who was taking about the same amount for a shorter time and died from liver and kidney complications due to the drug abuse. She was only 44. I just started my suboxone treatment... I am blessed with a second chance. In a few days of taking the suboxone I already feel better. Good luck.

     
    Old 03-21-2010, 01:49 PM   #8
    a55telly
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    Re: Please help....I don't know what to do....

    Thanks, I'm well aware that I am taking a generic of percocet that contains 10 mg of the narcotic and 325 mg of tylenol. Based on what I've been told by several doctors AND by Tylenol Website's Frequently Asked Questions, an adult may take up to 4,000 mg in a 24 hour period. I know I'm just barely under that limit, but I don't go over it.

    I tried the Subutex. There were two problems. First, you have to be completely free of opiates in your system or it will precipitate a withdrawal that is even worse than the norm. Never having been on opiates before, I could only guess what withdrawal would be like - - - it was way worse than I thought it would be. Second problem was that after the opiates were out of my system, my pain was way worse than it had been before. The Subutex is supposed to be far more powerful than morphine, but it didn't even touch my pain for some reason. Sadly, at least temporarily, I had to resort back to the percocet until I can find something that works better without the tylenol issues.

     
    Old 03-22-2010, 10:38 AM   #9
    Leo123
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    Re: I finally decided to try Subutex.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Leo123 View Post
    Telly,

    On another note just in case you find a doc to prescribe you Subutex, make sure you wait at least 24 to 36 hours prior to your last dose of full agonist opiates before you take the subutex.
    Just because subutex does not contain naxolone subutex is still an agonist/antigonist opiate and if you have a large dose of full agonist opiates on your receptors and then you take the subutex the antigonist part of the drug will kick off all the opiates from your receptors and through you into withdrawals

    I know, I tried to tell you that wether you take subutex or suboxone your system needs to be completely free from opiates.

    You previously wrote that only if you took suboxone you had to be free from opiates and that if you were taking subutex you could take it whenever because it does not contain naxolone.

     
    Old 03-22-2010, 07:30 PM   #10
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    Re: I finally decided to try Subutex.

    Are any doctors in America using Subutex as a treatment for pain it self (rather than addiction to painkillers)

    Here in Australia buprenorphine is usec in tablets (as Temgesic) and as patches (as Norspan) as a strong analgesic with a low potential for abuse.
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