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    Old 07-17-2005, 02:30 PM   #16
    haleysmum
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    Hi this subject is very touchy I think. I have to say that this time around I will not be hitting my children. I use to spank my son ( now 19 ) and if I could turn back time I WOULDNT HAVE ! As for a 2 year old, there is no way they would understand why they are getting punished. All they would understand is that mummy is hurting me My daughter will be 2 at the end of September and I just wouldnt dream of pulling her nappy off and spanking her bottom. I have given her a tap on the hand once and I wont be doing it again. When my eldest son was a boy he was a VERY difficult child to bring up ( adhd, learning difficulties etc ) and I will tell you now all the spanking in the world did not alter his behaviour. In hindsight I would say it made him worse. I think all spanking does is put fear into a child which I dont think is good. Yes fear is good when it comes to learning about life etc. But not to be frightened of your own parents. Your home and family should be your safe haven and comfort zone where you know you are safe and looked after.
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    Old 07-17-2005, 05:05 PM   #17
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    As always the subject of dicipline is very controversial. Siren, let me tell you that i commend you for the parenting you are doing with your child. I so agree with everything you have said. It sounds like we were raised similar and that we also share the same values that were instilled in us by our parents thanks to being diciplined and raised "the old school way". You are also RIGHT ON when you spoke about the statistics of our societies children today as compared to the earlier generations.

    I also wanted to make the point about 2 year olds not understanding why they are being diciplined. I must say that IMO that is so very untrue. Parents who believe this i believe is just not giving their 2 year olds enough credit. A two year old child is very intelligent, if a child is taught "no" from an early age they know not to do certain things or touch certain things, Most two year olds have a very large vocabulary as well as many have been taught and know how to use the potty!!!!! Two year old children, regardless how they are diciplined, certainly know what they are being diciplined for.

    A good spanking is far from being abuse. Children who are raised in a stable and loving home, who are taught right from wrong at an early age, that are diciplined with a firm hand certainly are NOT living every day being afraid.

    Like Siren, myself and my husband too was raised in a loving home with firm and strict dicipline and we were happy, well rounded children who grew up to be respectful and productive people. We are the parents of 5 children ranging in the ages from 18 down to 9. We have raised our children the "old school way" teaching them right from wrong, acceptable and non acceptable behavior from a very young age. Our children always knew that if a spanking was warranted that they would get one, however, with showing the children love and the start of teaching at a very young age our children didnt require very many spankings. I am also very proud to say that besides the "normal" things that children will do, our children have never been in any kind of real serious trouble, as well as my husband and i have recieved so many compliments from different people as to what nice, caring, compassionate, RESPECTFUL and well behaved children we have.

    I do feel that unfortunately nowadays there are just so many parents out there who do abuse and neglect their children. The parents are just sooooo wrapped up in their own lives, be it their jobs, relationships, hobbies, you name it, that they dont take the time to give their children the attention, love, and support that these children all so deserve. So many parents dont even have a clue as to what and how their children are doing in school, as well as many kids are left home alone for hours after school because the parents have to work and many of these parents probably would just cringe if they knew what their kids were doing when they arent home.

    Like i had said, dicipline is such a controversial issue, however, there is a REAL difference between spanking and abuse. If spanking was abuse then many many parents would be in jail right now. I have a friend who is a Social Worker with Children Services, I have talked with her at great length about their guidelines for child abuse, per Family/Children Services SPANKING ON THE BOTTOM IS NOT WITHIN THEIR GUIDELINES OF ABUSE !

    In an earlier post i had mentioned about acquaintences coming over with their ill behaved children. These parents have 3 children, they have shown their children much unconditional love, however, these parents dont believe in spanking. They "talk" to their children and when the children misbehave they "ask" them and say "please" will you behave! Let me tell you, those 3 children are probably 3 of the worse behaved children i have EVER seen!!!!! When these parents would "ask" their children to behave in a pleading pathetic voice that would just totally annoy me and just make me nauseous.
    Needless to say, they thankfully dont stop by to visit anymore.
    These 3 children are still fairly young, but i'll tell ya, i really hate to even think about the things that they will do or the trouble that they will be into when they get just a little older. It is so very sad when parents allow such bad behavior as it's the children who end up suffering for it later.

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    Old 07-17-2005, 07:33 PM   #18
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    I agree that it is terrible when parents do not disipline their children. I just feel that you can disipline your children with out spanking. I have experienced children hitting mine and their moms do not do anything about it. Maybe they say no hitting. But it's from across the room while they are sitting on the couch. My DS just went through a hitting phase that lasted a month. I think that my consistancy and getting down to his level, saying "no hitting", talking about how it hurts, and taking him away from the situation taught him to stop hitting. I did not say please stop hitting while sitting on my butt on the couch. So, just becasue your "friends" do not disipline their children at all, does not mean that their children misbehave because they are not spanked. IMO they could learn to behave with consistant disipline without spanking.

    I also feel that each family has to do things that work best for them. If spanking is what you need to do, then thats what you need to do. I do think I am able to express my views. My big issue comes from the bare bumm thing. I think that is humiliating. I could not imagine someone taking off my underwear and spanking me, if I made a mistake or needed to learn something. It gives me the creeps thinking about it. I don't see how a child would feel any better about it.

     
    Old 07-17-2005, 07:46 PM   #19
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by valleygurl
    A good spanking is far from being abuse. Children who are raised in a stable and loving home, who are taught right from wrong at an early age, that are diciplined with a firm hand certainly are NOT living every day being afraid.
    My sentiments exactly! As with the point I was making earlier, yes, there were times I feared my parents. But those were ONLY times when I had done deliberately wrong and had very good reason to worry. There is something wrong with a child who doesn't fear his or her parents in this situation. They become the very same people who don't fear the law.
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    Old 07-17-2005, 10:30 PM   #20
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    I have a 2 year old almost 3 and I spank her mostly on the bum if she would not ABSOLUTELY listen to me what so ever. I spanked her bare bottom 2 or 3 times. So yeah, it all depends on the child and the parent's view on the morality of it. SOmetimes my daughter gets so out of control, and after trying to talk in a low but stern tone, then yell, then say your going to time out, and she STILL doesn't listen, then I proceed to spank her and THEN she listens. Hey, disciplin is discipline and it's mentioned somewhere in the bibile by the way. I don't believe in spanking as an ultimate solution but when you've tried and tried and they still don't listen then, IMO, a lick or 2 is what works for me! ANd yah, I feel a little bad about it but she listens and like I said it works, cause as we all know, parenting can be VERY stressful expecially at my daughter's age...and also very fun too.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 02:07 AM   #21
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    Unhappy Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    I just don't understand how pain can help a child? As far as the old days being better because parents hit there children. I disagree. In the old days it was ok for woman to be hit or slapped around too. I believe most parents today still do hit there children for punishment. I personally feel that hitting a child with there close off is humiliating. And hitting only teaching violence is acceptable. To the parent who said 2 year olds are smatter than people think. I agree. So teaching a little 2 year hitting is ok is a false sense of the real world. When was the last time someone's boss pulled there pants down and "spanked" them, because they made a mistake or didn't listen? I do agree time outs or a firm sounding voice or other punishments work. Also sadly kids become desensitized to spanking too. Hitting a child puts them is a sort of state of shock, so of course it seems to have an affect at first. Just like a cold glass of water in the face etc. I realize this is controversial and I'm not trying to offend anyone. I just want to express my opinion.
    FairyMagick

    Last edited by FairyMagick; 07-18-2005 at 02:09 AM.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 07:38 AM   #22
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    The old "spanking teaches hitting" argument can be easily disproven by careful research. In fact, childhood agressivness has been more closely linked to maternal permissiveness than any type of discipline. My son first hit me at the tender age of 15 months, long before I had ever spanked him. Children don't have to be taught to be agressive.

    As for not hitting your boss because you have respect for him, that's not much of an argument. You can't put your boss, teachers, or friends in time out, either. No matter what form of discipline we use, we exerting athoritative control over our children. We do this because they are our responsibilty and we know better than they do.

    I just get so tired of these psycologists who spew out all this stuff. I've heard EVERYTHING you just said, Fairy, from reading developmental psycologists who are anti spanking. But you know what? I'd read it again, and they never had any proof to back it up. It was all obviously opinion, OR they often use horribly flawed studies that lump abusive hitting and a spanking from loving parents all in one category. This serves to make parents feel guilty and doubt every disciplinary choice they make for their child. I've even read some people who say that any type of punishment, even time-out, is wrong.

    As far as "the old days" go, you can't argue with crime statistics. What kills me is that somehow, we have suddenly become the "enlightened" generations. That thousands of years of traditions in parenting, marriage, abstinance, and education have always been wrong and "oh-thank-God-we-discovered-it-now!!!" This is, after all, the new millineum. We actually believe it, because we have been told it so much for the last 40 years. We are absolutely deluding ourselves, however, because statistics say otherwise. It's the same pseudointellectualism BS (I question everything, therefore I'm an "intellectual" ) that I got so sick of in college that drives everything nowdays, even discipline choices. And where has it gotten us? Having 10 year old boys hauled off in handcuffs by the cops because they got into a tussle on the playground? In the "Good ol days" a quick paddling and a "don't do it again" would've been plenty. And it would've worked, too. Now kids are bringing guns to school and killing their classmates.
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    Last edited by siren1024; 07-18-2005 at 07:42 AM.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 08:36 AM   #23
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FairyMagick
    I just don't understand how pain can help a child? FairyMagick
    Pain is the most effective learning tool in all of life. I drank too much once in college and ended up with a horrible hangover. Therefore, I didn't ever drink that much again. Or my son had a tendency to constantly close the doors on his fingers. It hurt, and he cried. Therefore, he learned very quickly how to gently close a door and keep his little fingers out of the way. Human beings don't learn much of anything unless we learn it the hard way.

    The difference is, I'm not about to let my son (who has managed to debunk ALL the childproofing in our house) stick an object in an electrical outlet so he will know not to do it again. It's too dangerous. But if he doesn't listen to my warning, I spank him because I want to get the point across that I don't EVER want him doing that again.

    He also hits his little sister sometimes (who's only 3 months old) and because she can't defend herself, I have to get the point across. I can't let him do that. Now, if he hits his little friend on the playground who hits him back, I tell him "Don't HIT!!!" but IMO the friend hitting him back will teach him more than ME spanking him.

    Mild pain is effective. It doesn't scar us for life. It's a momentary unpleasant physical reaction that is actually our bodies way of telling us that something isn't right and something isn't good for us. That's why we learn so well from it, is because that's what it's there for.

    Now, I completely understand the maternal instinct to protect your children. I hate to see my children in pain. But that doesn't mean that I am doing them any kind of service from protecting them all the time from any type of pain. I've seen kids my son's age who's parents have done this, and they are either wildly agressive and impulsive (NO fear of consequences) or whiny, clingy, and afraid to try anything new.

    I also wanted to adress the idea that 2 year olds don't know what they are doing wrong. Why else has my son suddenly developed a habit of doing things when I'm not looking? I've even caught him doing things he shouldn't while constantly checking over his shoulder to make sure I'm not coming. Then when I walk back in the room, he will jump up and back from what he is doing. He's even said "No pank!!" before I even said a thing to him about what he was doing.
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    Last edited by siren1024; 07-18-2005 at 08:41 AM.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 08:52 AM   #24
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    I think your statement " He also hits his little sister sometimes (who's only 3 months old) and because she can't defend herself, I have to get the point across. " Kind of says it all. If I bother Mom she gives me a whack because I can't defend myself and she needs to get her point across. So if my sister bothers me and even though she can't defend herself against me like I can't against Mom. It's OK to hit like Mom does to get my point across. I may not have the ideal down to just give my sister a couple of whacks on the fanny like my Mom does me. But don't worry by them time I have children of my own I will know how to whack just like my MOM. Do you really not see how condemming your own observation of your child hitting a smaller person who annoys him is. I'm baffled! as far as your son first hitting you at 15 months that was the time to teach him by example never, never to hit someone to get a point across. You taught him to kiss,hug,eat with a spoon , pick up toys all by example try teaching him not to hit his sister,later his friends,girlfriends,wife and children. Maybe your grandchildren will thank you.

    Last edited by off kilter; 07-18-2005 at 09:00 AM.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 09:15 AM   #25
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    When he first hit me at 15 months, I always used verbal correction and putting him away from me, explaining how that hurt, and all that. It didn't work at all. I didn't start spanking his diaper until well after 18 months, when he actually got to the point where he was obviously hitting just to get a reaction because he knew it was wrong. He didn't actually stop the hitting until I started spanking him for it! Now he rarely hits.

    As for hitting his little sister, when she's old enough to hit back, I'll let her hit back to let that be his teaching tool.
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    Old 07-18-2005, 10:11 AM   #26
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    So Sad, he hits you, You hit Him. He hits his sister, she will hit him. His sister hits you you will hit her. His sister hits him he will hit her. It just doesn't make sense. So Sad Good Luck

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 10:20 AM   #27
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    LOL.... you make it sound like we sit around slapping each other all day. As I've stated before, I don't randomly spank him. If he hits, he gets time out. If he refuses to stay in time out, he gets two swats on the butt for non compliance. Because he is 2 years old and I'm not going let him run the houseshold. Because he would if I'd let him. Siblings will fight. It happens, it's natural, and it's not unhealthy.

    I stated earlier that I've really looked into this, and the "spanking teaches hitting" debate doesn't hold any water.

    I suppose I should be glad our society has risen above those awful measures that have worked for centuries.
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    Old 07-18-2005, 10:57 AM   #28
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    I never got spanked,I never spanked my kids, they don't spank any of their children, I have 5 grandkids. My youngest son is 7 he has never been spanked. Their are families where parents do not resort to spanking. It's not necessary if you have good parenting skills. I hear the same arguments all the time !. I got spanked and I'm fine, Not if you hit your own kids. 2. spanking works! if so why does it not work the first time,or second,or third? If spanking worked you would not have to do it a second time. I can't change your mind but I just feel so bad for those little ones who have no choice but to have Mom do something like that to them. Your son said it all " No Spank " It may not be he fully understands what he did but more he has seen that look on your face before. I don't think you hit all day but one hit is to many.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 11:28 AM   #29
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    My younger son just turned two, and I honestly don't think he'd understand the reason for being spanked. I don't think he'd make the connection between the crime and the punishment, so to speak. But maybe your kids are different.

     
    Old 07-18-2005, 01:58 PM   #30
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    Re: Have you also spank on the 'bare bum'?.....

    There have been many many things that have "work" for centuries that we know now are wrong. I wont go in to the details. Something that always made sense to me is something my mother always told me. "Foul language and physical abuse is a feeble mind searching to express its self". Spanking is a quick fix for parents IMO. Of course children hit at a young age they do a lot of things like pull hair too, its immature behavior. They cannot express there full feelings at that age. Or they don't know any better. And no a boss wouldn't give a time out, but he/she could fire or discipline by demoting. Which later on when a child is old enough, they can realize it goes along the lines of a time out. Spanking works for a short time and as soon as the child is used to it, they become desensitized. When a child hurts themselves, it is in no way the same as getting hurt by someone else. They are learning by trial and error. Sticking there finger in a light socket ( hopefully they are covered) or touching something hot is the child exploring there world. They don't need to be hit for touching. Hopefully a parent is there to show them without the child getting hurt. They have to learn things are hot or cold or they need to see cars going by in the street etc. As far as crime. Well over half of people in jail have been physically abuse or sexually abused it is a fact. Pulling a childs pants down and hitting doesn't help teach that there bottom is there "private" parts. I have never heard of anyone saying "I turned out bad because I wasn't spanked".

    Last edited by FairyMagick; 07-18-2005 at 02:06 PM.

     
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