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Greenberry 02-02-2003 02:04 PM

This is my last attempt to advise you. I don't seem to be saying what you want to hear. You seem to want to put everything on your daughter--maybe she IS in fact mentally ill, but she sounds like a "normal" teenager to me. The only problem that I detect from reading your posts is that she is pushing her limits and that you are ALLOWING yourself to be pushed. You don't want her to not like you, so you are trying to be a "cool" parent. However, I can't help but notice that your daughter already doesn't like you, so if she is going to hate your guts anyway (like most teenagers do their parents) then you could at least do the right thing and have discipline and structure in your home. It is wrong that she is allowed to victimize your other daughter and your whole family because you think that will make her like you. You really need to get over the fact that she thinks you're dumb (also typical of teenagers--I remember it well!). She is a KID. You are supposed to be an adult. What if you had a situation at your workplace, where you know someone is doing wrong (REALLY WRONG--like stealing) or hurting someone else? Are you going to keep silent just so that person will not dislike you? If so, you are setting a bad example for your daughter. If not, then why are you allowing your daughter to get away with behavior that you would not condone in someone else?

The condom story is a good example and should have taught you a few things. You didn't lay down the law, and the situation kept getting worse. You seem to expect your daughter to develop a conscience on her own, which doesn't happen. You didn't want to cause a rumpus, so you just removed the condoms, expecting her to feel embarassed. Did she feel embarassed? Heck no, she just went out and got more. And on top of that, you were real cool about the whole thing, and she STILL thinks you are a moron. Why not at least DO THE RIGHT THING with her if she is going to think you're stupid regardless?

Most teenagers think their parents are stupid, or at least say that they think their parents are stupid at some point in time. I thought my parents were really dumb, with their rules, and their curfews, and their "no boyfriends in the bedroom" policy, etc., etc. But my parents set some limits for me, and enforced them, and that is why I did not go out of control pushing and seeing what I could get away with. I knew I could get away with NOTHING. Your daughter is pushing, and finding that she can get away with murder, while you are on the defensive hoping that she won't think you're dumb. Parenting on the defensive is not effective, and you and your daughter are finding that out.

You are the parent, and you and your wife pay all the bills in your home. That gives YOU the responsibility to make the rules regarding behavior in your home. You and your wife should sit down and make up the rules and let your daughters know what they are. At the next infraction of the unruly daughter (after warning her what will happen), her bedroom should be stripped down to a mattress on the floor, the ceiling light fixture, school books and two outfits of clothing. No door, no computer, no TV, NOTHING. Then, each day that she stays in line, she gets something back. Another screw-up, something leaves. She will not like it, and will probably call you every name in the book, but that is what I would do. That's all I can say.

*SoccerMom* 02-02-2003 02:39 PM

I totally agree with Greenberry. I feel that your daughter is given too many freedoms that she doesn't deserve. You and your wife seem afraid to cause waves. I was a hard to control teen who loved to test those limits...I learned quickly what those boundaries were. I do not have a biopolar disorder but I think that the crazy things that I did was part of being a teenager. I think that you and your wife should make those boundardaries clear to your daughter and ENFORCE them. If my son talks back or doesn't do as he is told then he knows he is in trouble. You made the comment about asking her to come for pizza, then you tried to send hints after they were in there for 45 minutes about it was time for them to come out. When she ignored your request to come eat, you should have MADE her come out. Greenberry was right about taking those freedoms away....I would just give her the basics until she learns that she will have to respect you and your rules. There would be no friends over and no activities other than school until she is making progress. I agree with the spyware and reading the diary because it is obvious that she is out of control. I would make her do her chores, respect your home (that gum and condom thing was outrageous!)

**"Tonight when she was in her room with her b/f they were lighting off caps ( with 2 coins) I didn't go in to tell them to stop ( fire) because I didn't want her to become embarrased by it and make us out to look like inbasiles beind our backs to her b/f. ( common sense should have been with her at the time anyways) What should we do??"

I think that you should care less about what she and her friends think about you and think about how much she is disrespecting all of you. She just says and does whatever she wants and you don't do anything so she doesn't get offended! I don't understand that.

**"at this point I don't care what she will be in 10 years. I'm only responcible for her till she;s 18."

I think this is the saddest part of your post. I feel my children are blessings that were given to me to care for until the end of time. I will always care what they are doing and if they are happy... whether it is 10, 20, 50, or 80 years from now.

Best of luck to all of you.

Nayrb 02-02-2003 05:43 PM

OK Ok Ok disapline it will be. I have read each and everyone of the replys and I appreciate it muchly and it has all been noted. Let me apply this fianal senerial: What do you suggest if this out of control daughter just can't take the disapline any further and angerly and abruptly exits the home in a huff with a few choice words to boot? Do we (1)chase after her and drag her back into the home? (2) let her go and hope she returns soon? (and hope she never done anything stupid) (3) remove another artical of importance for her room? Ps. We're not playing with you's here. These are real concerns of ours. thanks again

mushroom1 02-02-2003 10:40 PM

Naybr, try not to take your daughter's insults personally. Most teenagers talk terribly about their parents and don't really believe most of what they say...they are trying to push away from you.

However, your daughter seems over the top. I wouldn't accept her behavior. For one thing, there would be no more gum chewing until she can learn to throw chewed gum in the garbage. I would reward good behavior and punish bad behavior and accept the fact that she is not going to like you for a while...but she probably doesn't like herself very much and is just puting it on you. Maybe therapy would help?


Zegna 02-03-2003 05:18 AM

Mushroom- how on earth do you suggest this man stop his daughter from chewing gum? You are doing the same as every one else on here, saying do this and that but offering no practical advise as to how to enforce it. I will say it again, this girl doesn't "give a sh*t" and has no respect for her parents. Nayrb himself asked for some help regarding the enforcement of all these get tough plans but no one has been forthcoming. So to those that say set the ground rules and stick to them, ground her, take away her freedom, no gum in the house etc- What is he to do when he says she isn't going somewhere but she decides she is going regardless? Should he handcuff her to her bed? She just doesn't care and has no respect but no one seems to get that. Every one is talking like it is just so easy- why not just give her a time out lol...really people

This man faces a very difficult challenge and given his results up to this point I am far from convinced he is up to the challenge. But he can't give up. Theraphy might help if his daughter is willing, which I am not sure she would be, forced participation will not produce any results.

If you would stop clashing heads with her, relax, let her know you love her and do your best to get her speaking to you again that would be a good start.

CindyA 02-03-2003 02:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nayrb:
[b]Let me clairify something, when they were in her room the door was not shut the door was open. Now let me ask this question, is it ok or acceptable for them to be in the bedroom together ? evn if they are just reading ?? Would you allow your daughter and her b/f to be in her room together ? [/b][/quote]


My heart rate is increasing and I'm getting sooo frustrated reading these posts on these subjects. Seemed too much to reply to everything, then I saw this and figured it is a short enough subject matter.

Your daughter (aka your child or your kid) is 15 YEARS OLD!!! She is not a grown adult!

I mean absolutely NO offense when I ask you "Where have you been the last 15 years? Do you read? Do you watch TV? Do you look at magazines?" I'm serious--and NOT trying to insult you. How did this get so far out of hand?

First, NO, there should NOT ever be a boyfriend in the bedroom of your 15 YEAR-OLD daughter!! Not for ANY reason--homework, video games, Internet, TV, studying, etc. There is NO acceptable reason for them to be in the bedroom together at that age. None.

Second, to be perfectly blunt, your family is in desperate need of therapy AND parenting classes. It sounds to me like you have created a spoiled rotten brat.

Third, you say you don't care what happens after she is 18. What is our job as a parent, if not to do our VERY BEST to create a loving, responsible, kind, cooperative, functioning, well-mannered, productive member of society? If this is not your goal, what are your goals as a parent?

Oh, I feel for you. I really do. How to try to help you turn around 15 years of spoiling--I'm at a loss. Like the others say, there have got to be basic ground rules and boundaries that she is required to follow.

Interestingly enough, my 13 year-old will say on one hand that I am too strict, blah, blah, blah. On the other, she is acutely aware that it I am the way I am and I have the rules I have for TWO REASONS ONLY. One, I care about and love her more than anything in the world. Two, because of that love and my choice to raise a human being to adulthood, I have a specific job to do. My job is to create the kind of person I described above. She doesn't have to like how we both get to that point, but she knows why things are the way they are.

So, to get back on track here--the answer is NO. Not for any reason. And, at this point, while you're getting your bearings back in order, male friends would not be allowed in the house at all for a period of time--or at least until she can start following the rules.

The gum issue -- she would not be allowed to bring it into the house until she changed her ways. If that means a search of her person and her bedroom every day, so be it. It is YOUR house and YOU make the rules. When she can show some respect, she can bring gum back into the house. This isn't rocket science, Nayrb. Really. Will your family consider therapy?

CindyA 02-03-2003 03:10 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nayrb:
[b]Should I hit her with the spy software on her computer ? Also I am still concerned out how far she will go out of anger . MORE PLEASE . Thanks[/b][/quote]

At this point, "hitting her with the spy software" will do nothing to help the UNDERLYING issues at hand.

However, I agree with the other person who said that the Internet, at the very least, should be removed IMMEDIATELY. I would make no bones about it. You don't OWE your daughter explanations. If it were me, which it's not, and I realize that, but if it were, I would say "It has come to our attention that you are not using the Internet/Computer in an acceptable, responsible manner, and therefore, it is being removed from your bedroom until further notice." Period. She can have a 48-hour tantrum--not your problem. Your problem is protecting her, setting boundaries, etc., etc., etc.

Oh, gosh, you've got your work cut out for you. Hang in there -- and breathe. I know it's tough.

CindyA 02-03-2003 03:30 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zegna:
[B]First of all I would like to say I think your use of the spy software is an invasion of her privacy. Does she keep a diary? That would probably make for an interesting read. When she finds out she is likely to loose the last morsel of respect she has left for you.

Zegna, I am curious, are you a parent? I, too, used to believe in absolute privacy "rights" for my daughter. Thankfully, I read tidbits and articles in many places and forms, that helped me to realize that privacy is not an absolute "RIGHT" for my CHILD. Too many terrible things can happen to our children when we give them absolute privacy. (i.e. Internet pedophiles)

My daughter is allowed some basic human privacy "rights" if you will. I wouldn't dream of opening the bathroom door while she was inside unless requested by her. I ALWAYS knock on her bedroom door to let her know that I am coming in (not to be confused with her having a say so in whether I do or do not come in). I do not tap the phone and listen to her phone conversations. I wouldn't dream of reading her diary or journal.

However, when I see a piece of crumpled paper in my living room with her writing that says she is worried about the actions of a 12 year-old sexual predator at her school, you're darn skippy any privacy is out the window.

The Internet? Same thing. I told her that her e-mail is not private -- that I WOULD read it -- that anything she did not want me to know about, she'd best not put in e-mail. I've explained to her that she does not have a right to absolute privacy at the age of 12. When she is an adult, paying her own bills and is responsible for her own welfare, then she has a right to absolute privacy.

My daughter did not lose trust or respect for me when I told her that her e-mail and Internet use is not private. Might have bummed her out a little, but she KNOWS that my reasons are because I love her and care about her, and that in the end, she'll be better for it.

I do, however, understand where you are coming from, but a diary is very different from the e-mail or visited Internet sites. If my daughter is looking at sites, for example, on the effects of Ecstacy, marijuana, or LSD, I NEED to be concerned and I am GLAD to have the "History" button.

Zegna 02-03-2003 07:58 PM

CindyA: Yes I am the proud parent of 3 year old twin girls and a 1 year old boy. Me and my wife love kids and plan on having at least a couple more. I have also donated two houses that are used for accommodating homeless youths and am active in the running of these homes. I am also looking to purchase a third home which will house girls undertaking an anorexia recovery program. Plus I was also raised by the perfect parents. And while I welcome your inquiry I think experience is often over rated as the large majority of parents are at best mediocre. Oh, did I mention I am only 26 yo.

On the issue of privacy you are really kidding yourself. There is little point in reading your daughters email at all if you have forewarned her. Much like the police phoning a party and informing them that they will be conducting a drug raid in 2 hours time. Would you expect them to find any drugs?

She can just use that hotmail account you don't know about or the password to for all her really personal emails. It makes me think you have mixed feeling in regard to your spying or maybe you really don't even want to discover that she has a dark secret.

As for internet paedophiles they are actually a lot rarer than I am sure you believe but what you need to do is educate your daughter rather than spy on her. You may be able to read some of her emails but you can't access the conversations she has in chatrooms or using messenger services.

The same goes with drugs. If the average parent talks to their kids about drugs at all they will usually make the mistake of overstating the dangers of drugs. They will more or less say- "Drugs kill, don't use them". But what about Johnny? He uses drugs most weekends and is an image of health.

If through your spying game you find out your daughter has researched Ecstasy on the Internet that doesn't mean she has used it or is even considering trying it. All she is guilty of is researching it on the internet, perhaps because she has heard about it at school or in the news and wants to find out exactly what it is. It probably wouldn't be that easy to raise such a subject with a mother that is so suspicious, uptight and paranoid that she reads her daughters email. So are you going to punish the girl for being inquisitive or will you just have a serious chat with her about drugs (which is something you should have done regardless)?

I am glad you stop at the point of reading diaries and monitoring phone calls but how you can so strongly discriminate between one method of spying and another very similar method is beyond me. If you read her emails why not listen in on, even record, her phone conversations?

Despite what you may believe your daughter is in no way better off for your suspicion, spying and mistrust. In fact it interferes with the relationship you have with your daughter and the closeness between you. It also negatively affects your own mental health if only slightly.

I don't doubt you love and care for your daughter more than the world. But regardless of your motives this behaviour is not of any benifit to either of you. What you should do is spend as much time as you can with your daughter and educate her about all of your concerns. Build up the trust between you. Help her grow into an informed, confident, strong, young women with solid principles. This will go with her where ever she is where as you can not be there to spy on her.

rainflower 02-03-2003 08:04 PM

Can I just say coming here for ideas, throwing an issue out for the crowds to offer advice- nothing wrong with it. But I would like to remind you that we are just regular folk least I am. I have no professional experience in this field, so as a parent and someone who wasnt a teenager such a long time ago...great I can offer you advice all day long. But the more I Read the responses, the more I think about your situation, I really, really think you and your family need some therapy and in a hurry.
YOu asked if she could balk...even run away when you lay down the law- absolutely she can and most likely will. It happens every day all over the world. But you are the only one who truly knows your situation, and you and your wife are the only ones who can weigh your options and decide what is worth doing.
I dont believe professional intervention at this point is an option. If you cant afford it there are lots of free pastors, school counselors...crap- borrow the money if you must. For everyones sake in your family go together and separate.
I heard once about a mom who actually handcuffed herself to her rebellious daughter and did everything with her...letting her know the whole time that the reason why she was doing this was BECAUSE she loved her so much. The daughter finally broke down after a LONG period of time and changed her ways. I know from family experience that kids say they dont want boundaries when they are actually begging inside for them. Time after time this has been told to me from family members as well as friends who told me that they wished their parents had layed rules...even strict ones down, because while being allowed to raise themselves by making their own adult choices before they were actually adults was fun for a while...when they grew up it equalled in their minds that their parents actually didnt care enough to bother.
Bother...bother,bother,bother. Never stop loving her not for a second. But please show her thru effort. It is not going to be easy..especially because truthfully a huge portion of this was caused in the first place by your slack parenting..but accept the responsibility in that...maybe even sit her down and apologize for letting her down..but follow it with"but from this second on I care so much for you that I wont allow you to ruin our lives any further and I am going to do all I can to not just let you throw yours away. If you do so, if you choose this then know that you are choosing this path against our love for you. YOu are worth caring you are worth trying. WE wont give up on you..please dont give up on yourself."

i need a name 02-04-2003 07:41 AM

Nayrb, Sorry to say this, but what I see here is very simple. You and your wife although I am sure you love your daughter dearly have set this problem into motion yourselves. You have tried to be her friend and not her parents. Being your child's friend comes much later. Like when they are grown and have kids of their own.

Please don't think I am attacking you. That is the last thing I would want to do. I have a 12 year old daughter of my own and when I read your post I thought " There for the grace of God go I." Our DD started at a very young age doing some of the things that you have discribed your daughter doing. It has taken a huge toll on the rest of the family. Hubby and I have to take a VERY hard line with her on many things and I am sure she hates us for it. But frankly I don't care. She doesnt' have to like us, but she does have to respect her father and I, and her little brother and follow the rules as long as she lives in our home. We still even after months of councling have good days, bad days and days when I have seriously thought of sending her away.

I should add that she was diagonsed in the third grade with ODD. If you are not sure what that is do a search on oppositional defiance disorder.

CindyA 02-04-2003 08:45 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zegna:
[B]CindyA: Yes I am the proud parent of 3 year old twin girls and a 1 year old boy. Me and my wife love kids and plan on having at least a couple more. I have also donated two houses that are used for accommodating homeless youths and am active in the running of these homes. I am also looking to purchase a third home which will house girls undertaking an anorexia recovery program. Plus I was also raised by the perfect parents. And while I welcome your inquiry I think experience is often over rated as the large majority of parents are at best mediocre. Oh, did I mention I am only 26 yo.


Not that I won't finish reading your post, because I will. I had to stop and say that your arrogance overshadows any semblance of intelligent, thought-provoking argument. I have no further interest in engaging in dialog with you. May you continue to be perfect and have everything perfect in your life. If only the rest of us were so lucky.

Zegna 02-04-2003 10:53 AM

CindyA: You questioned whether I in fact have any parenting experience and the first paragraph of my last post (which you quoted in your corresponding post) just bluntly states my credentials.

I did refer to my parents as being perfect which in all reality they are not, parenting is an art and perfection doesnít exist. However you can be so close that it just doesnít matter anymore and that is where I would place my parents, in the masterpiece category. I do not claim to be perfect or that my life is perfect at all although I am completely happy in every aspect of my life. If you are envious of that then that is your problem.

I think your real issue is instead more with the remaining eight paragraphs of my previous post that you claimed not to have read. How dare I expose the many holes, problems and inconsistencies in your "I spy on my daughter for her own good theory".

You claim my "arrogance overshadows any semblance of intelligent, thought-provoking argument". I donít deny that a good deal of my writings on this board have come across as arrogant which is contrary to my usual character. This arrogance stems from my strong beliefs that I know something that no one else posting to this board does and the fact I have been defending myself from such assaults. (Here I go again...) There is no doubt that I have been the only person on this post that has been consistent, not contradicted themselves or been conflicted at all. I also think I am the only person that has brought any real perspective to this argument and am definitely the only person to address all of the issues raised.

So I ask you, open your mind and overlook my petty arrogance and you might realize ***I have refrained from saying something extremely condescending here***.

Why don't you print out this complete threat and ask your therapist to pick the winner. Although I do think that in your previous post you not only turned this into a contest but unknowingly admitted defeat as well.

Kimianne 02-04-2003 12:30 PM


Wow- I've heard of people like you. Just never actually had the chance to witness first hand.

There is NOBODY in this world who is perfect or has all of the answers as you seem to think that you do.

I really feel sorry for Nayrb- I believe that he has turned to this board for help and advice. Yet this topic has been monopolized with rantings and ravings about how perfect you are.

charby15 02-04-2003 01:22 PM

What i see is a normal teenage girl. At that age every girl or boy for that matter will try and push the bounderies!! I hated my parents at one point. I was not allowed to have boys in my room for a long time and when they did finally allow it my door was to stay open, then when i was in college i could go in with my door shut and he could stay the night but on the couch. You have to set boundries.

When i was 15, if i would have been an hour late and didn't even call to ask or let them know my butt would have got it the minute we walked in the door. MY parents wouldn't have even let us make it up the stairs, let alone to my bedroom. And if i had a BF in my bedroom my dad would have come in and made him leave the house and i wouldn't have been allowed boys over for a long time. As for the gum I flat out would have got my butt wooped!! I know some might not agree with spanking a child. My parents by no means were ever out of line when spanking me and i never even thought abuse. I see absolutly nothing wrong with a spanking with the hand. and trust me I hated to hear my dad say GRAB YOUR ANKLES (i know that sounds bad, but it worked.) They stopped spankin when it stopped hurting me and my brother. As for internet in the bedroom. I was young i was not allowed to have TV, phone or internet in my bedroom. I could take the cordless to my room and talk. As for internet my dad still checks the history on my 17 year old brother cause he has a tendancy to look at porn and my dad will block the site. As for privacy. My parents NEVER and I mean NEVER read my diary or went through my stuff. If i left something laying around then that is a different story. If you want your Daughter to trust you, then give her a reason to trust you.

IF i was in your shoes this is what i would do. I would call a family meeting. I would tell her that you are NOT HAPPY with the way things are going in this family. I would tell her that you DO NOT like the way she disrespects you and her mother and that YOU WILL NO LONGER ALLOW IT. Lay down the law right then and there. Tell her that for now she is not allowed to have her BF over cause of the way she disrespected you and that she is grounded for one month and her BF is not allowed in her room for another month after that. I would take out the internet and TV from both daughters rooms just because there is no reason to have it there. Then i would tell her that you can see the websites she is going to and that you do not agree with what she is looking at and limit her internet time to an hour a day and that is it. as for gum tell her that everytime you find gum in the house anywhere except for the garbage that is a week of being grounded. AND STICK TO IT!!! Make a chart of chores for BOTH GIRLS!! Where they swith off each week with garbage and vacuming for one and dishes for the other. Swithc em every week. MY brother and i always had chores his was packing in wood and taking out garbage and mine was dishes. We took turns cleaning our bathroom and our rooms had to stay clean. My parents didn't care if we missed dinner we had to stay in our room until they were clean. No fun until chores are done!! that was my dads motto!!! You know what i HATED MY DADS GUTS cause he was so hard on us. But now i am 21 and i have the greatest relationship with my parents. As long as i followed there rules we all were happy. and if i didn't hesitate to break a rule they didn't hesitate to punish me to the fullest. I admire my parents for how they raised me now and i hope i do as good of a job as them some day.

I hope my advice helps. Just be the parent no matter how much they hate you. Be the friend later. I used to tell my dad to his face that he was an a-hole and guess what he just said i will take that as a compliment and you can go sit in your room for the rest of the night for talkin to me like that. and by god i did...... sat there with no TV, no internet, no phone. Just me and my thoughts. Good luck to you.

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