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CindyA 02-03-2003 02:57 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nayrb:
[b]Let me clairify something, when they were in her room the door was not shut the door was open. Now let me ask this question, is it ok or acceptable for them to be in the bedroom together ? evn if they are just reading ?? Would you allow your daughter and her b/f to be in her room together ? [/b][/quote]

Nayrb,

My heart rate is increasing and I'm getting sooo frustrated reading these posts on these subjects. Seemed too much to reply to everything, then I saw this and figured it is a short enough subject matter.

Your daughter (aka your child or your kid) is 15 YEARS OLD!!! She is not a grown adult!

I mean absolutely NO offense when I ask you "Where have you been the last 15 years? Do you read? Do you watch TV? Do you look at magazines?" I'm serious--and NOT trying to insult you. How did this get so far out of hand?

First, NO, there should NOT ever be a boyfriend in the bedroom of your 15 YEAR-OLD daughter!! Not for ANY reason--homework, video games, Internet, TV, studying, etc. There is NO acceptable reason for them to be in the bedroom together at that age. None.

Second, to be perfectly blunt, your family is in desperate need of therapy AND parenting classes. It sounds to me like you have created a spoiled rotten brat.

Third, you say you don't care what happens after she is 18. What is our job as a parent, if not to do our VERY BEST to create a loving, responsible, kind, cooperative, functioning, well-mannered, productive member of society? If this is not your goal, what are your goals as a parent?

Oh, I feel for you. I really do. How to try to help you turn around 15 years of spoiling--I'm at a loss. Like the others say, there have got to be basic ground rules and boundaries that she is required to follow.

Interestingly enough, my 13 year-old will say on one hand that I am too strict, blah, blah, blah. On the other, she is acutely aware that it I am the way I am and I have the rules I have for TWO REASONS ONLY. One, I care about and love her more than anything in the world. Two, because of that love and my choice to raise a human being to adulthood, I have a specific job to do. My job is to create the kind of person I described above. She doesn't have to like how we both get to that point, but she knows why things are the way they are.

So, to get back on track here--the answer is NO. Not for any reason. And, at this point, while you're getting your bearings back in order, male friends would not be allowed in the house at all for a period of time--or at least until she can start following the rules.

The gum issue -- she would not be allowed to bring it into the house until she changed her ways. If that means a search of her person and her bedroom every day, so be it. It is YOUR house and YOU make the rules. When she can show some respect, she can bring gum back into the house. This isn't rocket science, Nayrb. Really. Will your family consider therapy?

CindyA 02-03-2003 03:10 PM

[quote]Originally posted by Nayrb:
[b]Should I hit her with the spy software on her computer ? Also I am still concerned out how far she will go out of anger . MORE PLEASE . Thanks[/b][/quote]

At this point, "hitting her with the spy software" will do nothing to help the UNDERLYING issues at hand.

However, I agree with the other person who said that the Internet, at the very least, should be removed IMMEDIATELY. I would make no bones about it. You don't OWE your daughter explanations. If it were me, which it's not, and I realize that, but if it were, I would say "It has come to our attention that you are not using the Internet/Computer in an acceptable, responsible manner, and therefore, it is being removed from your bedroom until further notice." Period. She can have a 48-hour tantrum--not your problem. Your problem is protecting her, setting boundaries, etc., etc., etc.

Oh, gosh, you've got your work cut out for you. Hang in there -- and breathe. I know it's tough.

CindyA 02-03-2003 03:30 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zegna:
[B]First of all I would like to say I think your use of the spy software is an invasion of her privacy. Does she keep a diary? That would probably make for an interesting read. When she finds out she is likely to loose the last morsel of respect she has left for you.

Zegna, I am curious, are you a parent? I, too, used to believe in absolute privacy "rights" for my daughter. Thankfully, I read tidbits and articles in many places and forms, that helped me to realize that privacy is not an absolute "RIGHT" for my CHILD. Too many terrible things can happen to our children when we give them absolute privacy. (i.e. Internet pedophiles)

My daughter is allowed some basic human privacy "rights" if you will. I wouldn't dream of opening the bathroom door while she was inside unless requested by her. I ALWAYS knock on her bedroom door to let her know that I am coming in (not to be confused with her having a say so in whether I do or do not come in). I do not tap the phone and listen to her phone conversations. I wouldn't dream of reading her diary or journal.

However, when I see a piece of crumpled paper in my living room with her writing that says she is worried about the actions of a 12 year-old sexual predator at her school, you're darn skippy any privacy is out the window.

The Internet? Same thing. I told her that her e-mail is not private -- that I WOULD read it -- that anything she did not want me to know about, she'd best not put in e-mail. I've explained to her that she does not have a right to absolute privacy at the age of 12. When she is an adult, paying her own bills and is responsible for her own welfare, then she has a right to absolute privacy.

My daughter did not lose trust or respect for me when I told her that her e-mail and Internet use is not private. Might have bummed her out a little, but she KNOWS that my reasons are because I love her and care about her, and that in the end, she'll be better for it.

I do, however, understand where you are coming from, but a diary is very different from the e-mail or visited Internet sites. If my daughter is looking at sites, for example, on the effects of Ecstacy, marijuana, or LSD, I NEED to be concerned and I am GLAD to have the "History" button.


Zegna 02-03-2003 07:58 PM

CindyA: Yes I am the proud parent of 3 year old twin girls and a 1 year old boy. Me and my wife love kids and plan on having at least a couple more. I have also donated two houses that are used for accommodating homeless youths and am active in the running of these homes. I am also looking to purchase a third home which will house girls undertaking an anorexia recovery program. Plus I was also raised by the perfect parents. And while I welcome your inquiry I think experience is often over rated as the large majority of parents are at best mediocre. Oh, did I mention I am only 26 yo.

On the issue of privacy you are really kidding yourself. There is little point in reading your daughters email at all if you have forewarned her. Much like the police phoning a party and informing them that they will be conducting a drug raid in 2 hours time. Would you expect them to find any drugs?

She can just use that hotmail account you don't know about or the password to for all her really personal emails. It makes me think you have mixed feeling in regard to your spying or maybe you really don't even want to discover that she has a dark secret.

As for internet paedophiles they are actually a lot rarer than I am sure you believe but what you need to do is educate your daughter rather than spy on her. You may be able to read some of her emails but you can't access the conversations she has in chatrooms or using messenger services.

The same goes with drugs. If the average parent talks to their kids about drugs at all they will usually make the mistake of overstating the dangers of drugs. They will more or less say- "Drugs kill, don't use them". But what about Johnny? He uses drugs most weekends and is an image of health.

If through your spying game you find out your daughter has researched Ecstasy on the Internet that doesn't mean she has used it or is even considering trying it. All she is guilty of is researching it on the internet, perhaps because she has heard about it at school or in the news and wants to find out exactly what it is. It probably wouldn't be that easy to raise such a subject with a mother that is so suspicious, uptight and paranoid that she reads her daughters email. So are you going to punish the girl for being inquisitive or will you just have a serious chat with her about drugs (which is something you should have done regardless)?

I am glad you stop at the point of reading diaries and monitoring phone calls but how you can so strongly discriminate between one method of spying and another very similar method is beyond me. If you read her emails why not listen in on, even record, her phone conversations?

Despite what you may believe your daughter is in no way better off for your suspicion, spying and mistrust. In fact it interferes with the relationship you have with your daughter and the closeness between you. It also negatively affects your own mental health if only slightly.

I don't doubt you love and care for your daughter more than the world. But regardless of your motives this behaviour is not of any benifit to either of you. What you should do is spend as much time as you can with your daughter and educate her about all of your concerns. Build up the trust between you. Help her grow into an informed, confident, strong, young women with solid principles. This will go with her where ever she is where as you can not be there to spy on her.

rainflower 02-03-2003 08:04 PM

Nayrb~
Can I just say coming here for ideas, throwing an issue out for the crowds to offer advice- nothing wrong with it. But I would like to remind you that we are just regular folk here...at least I am. I have no professional experience in this field, so as a parent and someone who wasnt a teenager such a long time ago...great I can offer you advice all day long. But the more I Read the responses, the more I think about your situation, I really, really think you and your family need some therapy and in a hurry.
YOu asked if she could balk...even run away when you lay down the law- absolutely she can and most likely will. It happens every day all over the world. But you are the only one who truly knows your situation, and you and your wife are the only ones who can weigh your options and decide what is worth doing.
I dont believe professional intervention at this point is an option. If you cant afford it there are lots of free pastors, school counselors...crap- borrow the money if you must. For everyones sake in your family go together and separate.
I heard once about a mom who actually handcuffed herself to her rebellious daughter and did everything with her...letting her know the whole time that the reason why she was doing this was BECAUSE she loved her so much. The daughter finally broke down after a LONG period of time and changed her ways. I know from family experience that kids say they dont want boundaries when they are actually begging inside for them. Time after time this has been told to me from family members as well as friends who told me that they wished their parents had layed rules...even strict ones down, because while being allowed to raise themselves by making their own adult choices before they were actually adults was fun for a while...when they grew up it equalled in their minds that their parents actually didnt care enough to bother.
Bother...bother,bother,bother. Never stop loving her not for a second. But please show her thru effort. It is not going to be easy..especially because truthfully a huge portion of this was caused in the first place by your slack parenting..but accept the responsibility in that...maybe even sit her down and apologize for letting her down..but follow it with"but from this second on I care so much for you that I wont allow you to ruin our lives any further and I am going to do all I can to not just let you throw yours away. If you do so, if you choose this then know that you are choosing this path against our love for you. YOu are worth caring for...so you are worth trying. WE wont give up on you..please dont give up on yourself."

i need a name 02-04-2003 07:41 AM

Nayrb, Sorry to say this, but what I see here is very simple. You and your wife although I am sure you love your daughter dearly have set this problem into motion yourselves. You have tried to be her friend and not her parents. Being your child's friend comes much later. Like when they are grown and have kids of their own.

Please don't think I am attacking you. That is the last thing I would want to do. I have a 12 year old daughter of my own and when I read your post I thought " There for the grace of God go I." Our DD started at a very young age doing some of the things that you have discribed your daughter doing. It has taken a huge toll on the rest of the family. Hubby and I have to take a VERY hard line with her on many things and I am sure she hates us for it. But frankly I don't care. She doesnt' have to like us, but she does have to respect her father and I, and her little brother and follow the rules as long as she lives in our home. We still even after months of councling have good days, bad days and days when I have seriously thought of sending her away.

I should add that she was diagonsed in the third grade with ODD. If you are not sure what that is do a search on oppositional defiance disorder.

CindyA 02-04-2003 08:45 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Zegna:
[B]CindyA: Yes I am the proud parent of 3 year old twin girls and a 1 year old boy. Me and my wife love kids and plan on having at least a couple more. I have also donated two houses that are used for accommodating homeless youths and am active in the running of these homes. I am also looking to purchase a third home which will house girls undertaking an anorexia recovery program. Plus I was also raised by the perfect parents. And while I welcome your inquiry I think experience is often over rated as the large majority of parents are at best mediocre. Oh, did I mention I am only 26 yo.

Zegna,

Not that I won't finish reading your post, because I will. I had to stop and say that your arrogance overshadows any semblance of intelligent, thought-provoking argument. I have no further interest in engaging in dialog with you. May you continue to be perfect and have everything perfect in your life. If only the rest of us were so lucky.

Zegna 02-04-2003 10:53 AM

CindyA: You questioned whether I in fact have any parenting experience and the first paragraph of my last post (which you quoted in your corresponding post) just bluntly states my credentials.

I did refer to my parents as being perfect which in all reality they are not, parenting is an art and perfection doesnít exist. However you can be so close that it just doesnít matter anymore and that is where I would place my parents, in the masterpiece category. I do not claim to be perfect or that my life is perfect at all although I am completely happy in every aspect of my life. If you are envious of that then that is your problem.

I think your real issue is instead more with the remaining eight paragraphs of my previous post that you claimed not to have read. How dare I expose the many holes, problems and inconsistencies in your "I spy on my daughter for her own good theory".

You claim my "arrogance overshadows any semblance of intelligent, thought-provoking argument". I donít deny that a good deal of my writings on this board have come across as arrogant which is contrary to my usual character. This arrogance stems from my strong beliefs that I know something that no one else posting to this board does and the fact I have been defending myself from such assaults. (Here I go again...) There is no doubt that I have been the only person on this post that has been consistent, not contradicted themselves or been conflicted at all. I also think I am the only person that has brought any real perspective to this argument and am definitely the only person to address all of the issues raised.

So I ask you, open your mind and overlook my petty arrogance and you might realize ***I have refrained from saying something extremely condescending here***.

Why don't you print out this complete threat and ask your therapist to pick the winner. Although I do think that in your previous post you not only turned this into a contest but unknowingly admitted defeat as well.

Kimianne 02-04-2003 12:30 PM

Zegna:

Wow- I've heard of people like you. Just never actually had the chance to witness first hand.

There is NOBODY in this world who is perfect or has all of the answers as you seem to think that you do.

I really feel sorry for Nayrb- I believe that he has turned to this board for help and advice. Yet this topic has been monopolized with rantings and ravings about how perfect you are.

charby15 02-04-2003 01:22 PM

What i see is a normal teenage girl. At that age every girl or boy for that matter will try and push the bounderies!! I hated my parents at one point. I was not allowed to have boys in my room for a long time and when they did finally allow it my door was to stay open, then when i was in college i could go in with my door shut and he could stay the night but on the couch. You have to set boundries.

When i was 15, if i would have been an hour late and didn't even call to ask or let them know my butt would have got it the minute we walked in the door. MY parents wouldn't have even let us make it up the stairs, let alone to my bedroom. And if i had a BF in my bedroom my dad would have come in and made him leave the house and i wouldn't have been allowed boys over for a long time. As for the gum I flat out would have got my butt wooped!! I know some might not agree with spanking a child. My parents by no means were ever out of line when spanking me and i never even thought abuse. I see absolutly nothing wrong with a spanking with the hand. and trust me I hated to hear my dad say GRAB YOUR ANKLES (i know that sounds bad, but it worked.) They stopped spankin when it stopped hurting me and my brother. As for internet in the bedroom. I was young i was not allowed to have TV, phone or internet in my bedroom. I could take the cordless to my room and talk. As for internet my dad still checks the history on my 17 year old brother cause he has a tendancy to look at porn and my dad will block the site. As for privacy. My parents NEVER and I mean NEVER read my diary or went through my stuff. If i left something laying around then that is a different story. If you want your Daughter to trust you, then give her a reason to trust you.

IF i was in your shoes this is what i would do. I would call a family meeting. I would tell her that you are NOT HAPPY with the way things are going in this family. I would tell her that you DO NOT like the way she disrespects you and her mother and that YOU WILL NO LONGER ALLOW IT. Lay down the law right then and there. Tell her that for now she is not allowed to have her BF over cause of the way she disrespected you and that she is grounded for one month and her BF is not allowed in her room for another month after that. I would take out the internet and TV from both daughters rooms just because there is no reason to have it there. Then i would tell her that you can see the websites she is going to and that you do not agree with what she is looking at and limit her internet time to an hour a day and that is it. as for gum tell her that everytime you find gum in the house anywhere except for the garbage that is a week of being grounded. AND STICK TO IT!!! Make a chart of chores for BOTH GIRLS!! Where they swith off each week with garbage and vacuming for one and dishes for the other. Swithc em every week. MY brother and i always had chores his was packing in wood and taking out garbage and mine was dishes. We took turns cleaning our bathroom and our rooms had to stay clean. My parents didn't care if we missed dinner we had to stay in our room until they were clean. No fun until chores are done!! that was my dads motto!!! You know what i HATED MY DADS GUTS cause he was so hard on us. But now i am 21 and i have the greatest relationship with my parents. As long as i followed there rules we all were happy. and if i didn't hesitate to break a rule they didn't hesitate to punish me to the fullest. I admire my parents for how they raised me now and i hope i do as good of a job as them some day.

I hope my advice helps. Just be the parent no matter how much they hate you. Be the friend later. I used to tell my dad to his face that he was an a-hole and guess what he just said i will take that as a compliment and you can go sit in your room for the rest of the night for talkin to me like that. and by god i did...... sat there with no TV, no internet, no phone. Just me and my thoughts. Good luck to you.

Zegna 02-04-2003 03:22 PM

Kimianne

I have heard of people like you also.

If you have read my last post you would have read quite clearly I said I do not even claim to be perfect. I don't even claim to have all the answers but I am a sure sight closer than anyone else to offer their opinion on this thread. All other posters all suggest getting tough in one way or an other but offer no practical advice on how to follow through with it. Nevermind the fact that it will never work because this girl (again...) doesn't "give a sh*t" and (almost understandably) has no respect for her parents.

As for this topic being "monopolized with rantings and ravings about how perfect you are". Well didn't I just say I don't claim to be perfect (and never have on this borad) at all and as for my parents I cleared that up in my last post.

The suggestion that the threat has been monopolized by anything of the sort is plain ridiculous. In fact less than 10% of my own paragraphs even mention anything regarding me personally or my private life. It is instead yourself and CindA that have decided to start concentrating on me.

**** **** **** _ _ _


-First post, 12 paragraphs, 2 containing refererence to my own parents and their desirable qualities, no mention of me.

-Second post, 10 paragraphs, 1 mentioning my parents in direct response to what was said my another, no mention of me.

-Third post, 3 paragraphs, none containing anything regarding me.

-Fourth post, 9 paragraphs 1 mentioning me in direct response to anothers query.

-Fifth and six posts, completely off the original subject, direct response to the bitterness of others.


Nayrb 02-04-2003 06:05 PM

I need a name: THankyou for pointing out the oppositional defiance disorder.(odd) I have done a search on this and I see a very familiar resembalance. I am going to look into this further.
Thanks to all of you's who have taken the time to read and reply. I feel a bit of frustration was starting between a couple posters but I know it was just the tension created by the race to find the cure .

i need a name 02-04-2003 06:41 PM

Glad to offer some help... But remember,if it does turn out that you and your family are dealing with this disorder, It could be an explination. Not an exucuse. DD often tries to say " But I can't help it Mom." True sometimes she can't but MOST of the time she can.

charby15 02-05-2003 02:08 PM

This is not directed to I need a name so please don't take offence to this. Your daughter might very well have ODD, but seriously look at this situation. I see nothing but a spoiled rotten teenage girl that has been allowed to rule the house!! I do understand that some people do suffer from different disorders, but now adays people are so quick to put the blame on a disorder rather then themselves and that is sad!! People don't want to admite that they might have f*cked up somewhere down the line. But fact is knowone is perfect. Every parent is going to make mistakes but it is the ones that will admit to the mistakes and do soemthing to fix it!!! PLEASE RE-READ my previous post I really feel that i gave some good advice. If you give it a good try i bet a million bucks she will be just fine. You let her disrespect you and you haven't taught her the proper respect she should give to all people! Not just you!! Please don't give up on your daughter and blame it on a disorder! Giver her a chance. Be a good parent and you might get a good child in retern!

i need a name 02-05-2003 05:26 PM

I take no offense at all... In fact I agree with you. It took a long time and a lot of councling before DD was diagnosed. We were afraid that DD would be labeled, so we had her evaluated by several doctors not telling any one what the others had told us. They all came to the same diaganosis. I think all kids have some of the traits they use to diagnose ODD. However, the kids with the disorder have those traits exaderated.

Nayrb 02-05-2003 05:34 PM

I just wanted to give a update. This morning my wife opened my daughters back pack(some of you's will concider this an invasion of privacy also) and found her birth control pills. Just what we expected! WE never told her about the find. WHY !! Some of you will ask! Because, if she;s gonna ****** her boyfriend then its better to be safe then sorry. I just don't see how she thinks she can be intimate with someone that she don't even know the middle name of. I guess some people are made to learn only by their mistakes. I removed the spyware from her computer tonight( some of you's will be happy) We don't want to know anymore. If you are not or have never been a parent of a teenage boy or girl, then please do not reply to this post. I'm sure your replys sounds good to you when you read it back to yourself, but if you have never experiences teenagers the your only surmising. Apply your theories first then repost with your results. I'm interested on how you will make out. Oh ya forgot to add that a doctors appointment was made for my wife and I to discuss with our doctor her behaviour. This is set for Monday.

[This message has been edited by Nayrb (edited 02-05-2003).]

msrivers 02-05-2003 05:50 PM

Nayrb, I feel for you. I truly do. I was 22 when I gained custody of my then 12 year old sister. Things went great for a year or so, she followed the rules, was respectful, everything any parent could have hoped for. Then something happened. She hit puberty, BIG TIME!! Oh my goodness, we tried EVERYTHING. We did the spying, the reading of her 'personal' stuff, we drove her to and from school, we tried grounding, we tried talking, we tried counselors. We laid down the law and we laid it down HARD. Know what she did? She ran away. Then she came back home, then she ran away again, then she came home, then she ran away again. This time when she came home we called the police. They had a big talk with her. She made all sorts of promises to us, then she ran away again. The police were called, she was arrested as a runaway, and she got to spend some time in detention. We were awful stupid ignorant morons in her eyes. She was a belligerent, hardheaded,ignorant teen in our eyes. I remember scouring the streets at night trying to find her. It was an awful trying time in my relationship with her. But teens will do what they want to do. Eventually they will find a way to do it. I do say lay down the law, discipline her, pay NO ATTENTION to how she feels about you or what she says about you. For her sake you need to play hardball.
Today my sister thanks me for being there for her, and she has apologized profusely for what she put us through. She knew that no matter what she did or how much she hurt me I would always be there for her and I would love her. At 21 she is a much wiser and more appreciative girl. It sounds to me like you are doing your best, and in the end that is really all that counts. Good luck, truly.

Nayrb 02-05-2003 06:07 PM

MSRIVERS: Thanks for sharing. I told my wife the other day that when our dughter finally wakes up out of this age(probally 25) and if she wants to do something nice for us to show how sorry she is, I told my wife that I'm gonna tell her to take us to dinner and I want what ever I want to order. And I 'm going for everything!! I'm gonna drain her bank account LOL! Seriously! then we will take her home and I will ask to use her washroom and I will stick gum everywhere LOL! I'm not really laughing but it makes me chuckel thinking about it.

Anablackfury 02-05-2003 09:42 PM

Ok first off you might not want to read what I have to say b/c i am not a parent of a teen. But instead both a parent and a teen. First Congrats on letting your daughter date. Most parents would say that is too young, but it makes for a good learning experence. As a parent, you have to find the median between being to strict and too un strict. both can be really bad and led down the same roads. Instead of hiding what you are doing and sneaking. Confront your daughter. And no I don't think it is a good idea for a teen to have the internet in their own room.
As for her boy friend, Pick out a specific room(s) that are on/off limits and stick to them. If they don't follow those rules, then tell him it is time to leave. Demand respect, but also earn it. Sneaking around does not denote respect. Tell her that she will have to earn your respect, and that currently she has none. Remind her that having the internet is a privalage,not a right. Also having someone over, or going places, a privalge not a right. If you wanted to you could ground her until her graduation, That is your right as a parent. Make her earn these privalages, don't just hand them over.If you are going to spy on her internet, tell her. Really sit down and talk to her. Remind her that as a child all she really has are privalges. Tell her of the responsibilties of having sex. And the life long effects. Don't hold back. Remind yourself that you are the parent, and she is not.
I am hoping you can get though to her, b/c my mom didn't. Here I am 19, with a 2 yr old daughter, and I am stuggling to keep us alive and food on the table. No, I am not a single mom, I just got lucky, really lucky. If it helps any, you can use me as a refence. The night I lost my virginity, was the night of my daugher's conception. I hope things work out for you. you will be in my prayers.

charby15 02-06-2003 08:06 AM

You know I am very sorry you felt that my advice was not good enough because i do not have a teenage daughter. I guess the fact that i was once a teenage girl.....not that long ago might i add.....merits nothing. I beleive that most anyone who read this forum would agree with me and most others advice on here. Your daughter will continue to grow up and treat you the way she does cause i don't believe anything you do will be productive.

I do think that was a good choice not to freak out on her when you found the birth control. But why not confront her on it and have THE TALK with her. Tell her you don't quit understand her choices, but that you are proud of her for being safe. Make sure she can come to you for anything (if in fact that is how you feel. The more open you are with your daughter the more open she will become with you.

Once again, I hope you rethink you choice to ignore good advice and don't be so quick to blame it on ODD. I once again wish you the best of luck.


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