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pendulum 11-15-2007 11:47 AM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=brook65;3308295]Some people are natural loners, prefer their own company, and don't need or want to have a romantic relationship. So not everybody wants or needs to have a partner in life to be happy.

My aunt is one of those people, she has never married, or had children, but she has no regrets she is one of the happiest people I know.

[COLOR="Red"]That can be absolutely true. Yet I think that she (your aunt) wasn't so happy as she could have been, if she had - at least for once and even for a short period - known/experienced the happiness of loving and being loved in return. [/COLOR]

She spent most of her life in a successful career, having enough money to travel the world, loves her animals and friends, and enjoys her life. She has never once said if only I had a romantic partner or child, she is happy the way her life is.

Like the saying goes, [U]we all come into this world alone, and we all go alone[/U], we are all alone really during life, and we all only have ourselves that we can truly count on.

[COLOR="Red"]Yes, we do, but while we are living this life, it is very common and natural that we seek other people, either romantically or not, because life all alone is harder and may be more difficult to make sense, especially if you are a young person.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

bulletproof 11-15-2007 11:55 AM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
I do agree that we are biologically driven to mate. Now, for how long that mating should last is up for debate. The divorce rate is no accident- humans don't seem to be meant to stay together permanently. But we certainly seem to be hardwired to feel love, however chemically driven it may be.

I think, however, that anyone trying to place a value on someone else's life and speculating as to whether that person is as happy as he or she could be is futile, as well as presumptuous. Every person's life has value, even a criminal on death row. To say that a mother of two dying is more tragic, or that someone's happy single relative wasn't as happy as she could have been just reeks of projection.

pendulum 11-15-2007 12:23 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=bulletproof;3308335]I do agree that we are biologically driven to mate. Now, for how long that mating should last is up for debate. The divorce rate is no accident- humans don't seem to be meant to stay together permanently. But we certainly seem to be hardwired to feel love, however chemically driven it may be.

I think, however, that anyone trying to place a value on someone else's life and speculating as to whether that person is as happy as he or she could be is futile, as well as presumptuous. Every person's life has value, even a criminal on death row. To say that a mother of two dying is more tragic, or that someone's happy single relative wasn't as happy as she could have been just reeks of projection.[/QUOTE]

Ok, I see your point. I was trying to defend a point of view and perhaps in doing so I sounded presumptuous and futile. But it was not my objective to look through her aunt's life and peremptorily decide that it was less valuable than another one's who has experimented with romantic love. Because I know that the value of life doesn't rest only upon love. It has to do more with service. But what do I know? What I was trying to say is that life without love or free of love, if you prefer, is in my opinion less satisfying in terms of personal realization, not less valuable per se.

bulletproof 11-15-2007 12:32 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
Oh, I definitely hear where you're coming from, Pendulum. Some could argue that because we have the ability to reproduce, not doing so keeps us from completing the ultimate goal in this life, and thus we may not really be fulfilled even when we think we are. But, perhaps fortunately, other peoples' fulfillment is impossible to measure! I also put a lot of stock in the saying, "you're as happy as you think you are". Just something to think about.

xanadu2 11-15-2007 12:33 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
Whew!

I posted my message this morning, went out and had an incredible day (which I have already written up because it substantiates my main point) but I feel I must digest all these answers before I respond. 17 responses! That's a bit more than I expected! Thanks a lot, folks! :angel:

LLM, I knew you'd be here! I wish I could find an answer for you too! :angel:

brook65 11-15-2007 12:56 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=pendulum;3308374 But it was not my objective to look through her aunt's life and peremptorily decide that it was less valuable than another one's who has experimented with romantic love. Because I know that the value of life doesn't rest only upon love. It has to do more with service. But what do I know? What I was trying to say is that life without love or free of love, if you prefer, is in my opinion less satisfying in terms of personal realization, not less valuable per se.[/QUOTE]


Anyways enough of my aunt lol:) It was just an example to say that not everybody has to have love in a 'romantic' sense to be truly happy.

Some people choose to be alone, and if they are happy/happier alone then so be it, I don't think any of us here can say that those people might of been happier in a more traditional style of life. Would you say that to those married to the church??

Some people, love there careers, can be classed as married to their jobs etc, there are many forms of love, and many forms of happiness.

I guess it means we are all different:)

pendulum 11-15-2007 01:18 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=brook65;3308423]Anyways enough of my aunt lol:) It was just an example to say that not everybody has to have love in a 'romantic' sense to be truly happy.

Some people choose to be alone, and if they are happy/happier alone then so be it, I don't think any of us here can say that those people might of been happier in a more traditional style of life. Would you say that to those married to the church??

Some people, love there careers, can be classed as married to their jobs etc, there are many forms of love, and many forms of happiness.

I guess it means we are all different:)[/QUOTE]

About the aunt, agreed. LOL

My original point can be thus summed up: once you have known romantic love, it is impossible or very difficult to be as happy again without it. There are people who will never experience that kind of love, so they will be happy without it, in default, so to say.

Yes, indeed we are all different. We could have come from different planets, if you want to know. Love comes first for me, perhaps not for everyone else on these boards. I need a lot of things to feel happy, but without love my happiness wouldn't be complete. But yes, that is me, maybe only me.

Anyway, listen to Jobim's song. It's very beautiful.

xanadu2 11-15-2007 02:22 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
Right, Iíve read the posts, except for the last couple. Thanks, folks! There is far more here than I can respond to in one post. Firstly I knew before I shut the computer down this morning that someone was inevitably going to take Pendulumís stance.

[QUOTE=bulletproof;3308335]

I think, however, that anyone trying to place a value on someone else's life and speculating as to whether that person is as happy as he or she could be is futile, as well as presumptuous. Every person's life has value, even a criminal on death row. To say that a mother of two dying is more tragic, or that someone's happy single relative wasn't as happy as she could have been just reeks of projection.[/QUOTE]

Bulletproof, you are right! I thought, when I was out in the hills, that it goes like this. Person A thinks: ĎNothing can ever mean as much to me as a loving partner, a sex life, and children. Also I know any number of other people who think the same. Heck, I even know a song about it! Yet person B is saying something completely different! I canít relate this to my own experience, nor to the experience of a lot of other people, and because I canít quite understand, I wonder if itís actually true?í

Iíve heard it so many times and so often it has just come down to the other personís inability to walk a mile in my shoes and fully grasp an experience of life so unlike their own. I must add that I still consider it to be a valid response in this forum.

My problems with it really begin when people have been over-anxious to impose it on me, because they imagine it will project me into the arms of that Ďright maní who is always supposed to be hovering in the background! First they work on me until I feel needy, then I undergo feelings of intense loneliness that I am sure Larrylouísmom is totally familiar with. It doesnít bring the right man into my life, and after a lot of misery eventually I return to my happy nature-loving self and wonder why on earth I ever let myself be talked into living any other way!

I think I explain this better if I describe various ups and downs of my adult life, another time, and also how I handle feelings about sex and babies.

Meanwhile I can visualise two scenarios. First, what could have happened today if Iíd decided I was incomplete without a partner.

I decide itís Ďselfishí to live alone, so find and marry an apparently nice man. Iím average and he seems reasonable. However he starts beating me up, so we divorce and the proceeds of the house sale are split 50/50. In Britain the fact that the average person can no longer afford to buy the average house is forever making the headlines, so, with only half the price of a good home to spend, Iím forced into a dingy inner-city flat, that being where cheap housing is usually situated.

Then I type a post to this forum in the middle of last night, after waking with the pain of arthritis, then went back to sleep. When I awoke again, there was dense fog and heavy frost. ĎWhat a bad day,í I think, and when I notice a glimmer of sunlight: ĎHmm, what difference does that make when Iím trapped between four walls?í Itís a long way out of town, so I decide to see my friends, but they tell me: ĎYou are so depressing after your divorce! Lighten up!í

Second, what really did happen today? I awoke in the most wonderful home Iíve ever known, to look out at fog and frost, but when I saw the faint gleam of sunlight I knew I had to be out on my little motorbike, fast, before the fog lifted. I admit there were some bad thoughts in my mind at the beginning of the ride, but the mixture of sunlight, mist and trees sparkling with hoar frost was so beautiful they soon stopped. Itís only a mile to the foot of the Ridgeway, a thousand feet above the valley. Up, up I went, being wary of black ice on a single-track road, but soon I knew my guess was correct. I emerged into sunlight above the clouds. On the Ridgeway I caught sight of the view on the other side and I stopped.

The blue remembered hills of poetry stretched to infinity with cotton-wool cloud in every valley. It was so glorious it pushed every other thought out of my head. I canít tell people whom Iíve never met every profound and wonderful thought that went through my mind, only that I heard myself saying out loud: ĎBy what great good fortune have I come to live in this blessed, beautiful place!í :angel::angel::angel:

After a long, long time, during which I was passed by all of two cars, I went on my way to see my friends. I said nothing about the pain in the night or the bad thoughts that had bothered me at the start of my ride, because I had to share the wonderful experience on the hilltop, and they gave me deep meaningful smiles! Happiness is contagious, and friends are extremely important! :angel::angel::angel:

If I had to say now that deep down I was honestly trying to conceal some kind of void while my heart was full of so much beauty, I would genuinely be making it up to satisfy an audience.

This is not an exceptional day. Living here, itís actually a fairly normal day! :angel:

Now Iíve made my great discovery, there is a third possibility. Knowledge is power. What if Iíd looked at that incredible view with a loving arm around my shoulder as we drank it in together? But I find myself saying: ĎWhat! You want icing on the cake? Iíve lived for years with the knowledge that no-one has everything and happiness is valuing what youíve got. If you are always niggling for something more, youíll never be satisfied!

That doesnít mean I wonít make the choice to have a partner, because my discovery is so new that I havenít fully absorbed the possibilities yet. But since Iíve identified the problem, it follows that I now have the power to make changes. :angel:

I do find it fascinating to see how every twist and turn of my life now falls into place, because that convinces me I really have found the answer. If I was wrong about it, then Iíd discover a piece of the puzzle that doesnít fit. Iím still looking for the piece that doesnít fit, and for the first time in my whole life, I canít find one!

Now I have a couple of fresh posts to read.

xanadu2 11-15-2007 02:29 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=bulletproof;3308390]Oh, I definitely hear where you're coming from, Pendulum. Some could argue that because we have the ability to reproduce, not doing so keeps us from completing the ultimate goal in this life, and thus we may not really be fulfilled even when we think we are. But, perhaps fortunately, other peoples' fulfillment is impossible to measure! I also put a lot of stock in the saying, "you're as happy as you think you are". Just something to think about.[/QUOTE]

Bulletproof, you mind reader, you! ;););)

I was just thinking what my very next post would say, but...you've said it for me! :angel: If I say I was utterly, totally, experiencing heaven on earth when I saw a great panorama of hilltops in sunlight above the clouds today, how on earth can anyone possible tell me that my experience was in some way incomplete?

Just multiply that experience so it spreads over 50 years... (except for some bad times, but we all have those.)

Larrylou'smom 11-15-2007 02:40 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=jen52983;3308252][COLOR="Purple"]
You're right that being in love with another person and being loved back is a feeling that nothing else can compare to. I'm just saying that some people don't necessarily feel that hole in their life that you may feel when you're not in a relationship. Some people have filled that hole with other desires, and other priorities. Different strokes for different folks![/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Hey, I'm not knocking that. I think if you're single and you can be happy and you can make the best of it, that's great. All I'm saying is, there are some people, like me, who tried everything I can to make my life as much as I could make out of it, but am not happy. I refuse, absolutely refuse to believe that I'm so miserable because I'm choosing to be. I think that for some people, companionship, meaningful touch, meaningful, soul to soul sex, partnership with one special person, feeds a soul like nothing else does. I've been round round and round and round with people on this topic before, but all I'm saying is, there are some people who just NEED, really truly NEED love, that special, one of a kind one on one love that a man and a woman share, and without it, no matter what else they have, they simply can't be happy. I don't think that's a sign of low self esteem, iimmaturity, or some other kind of serious dysfunction or character flaw. I just think we need what we need to be happy and if we can't get it, there's just no way we can be happy. Like being a city or country dweller. Some people dont' like nature, don't need or want it, and can live in the city and spend years without ever seeing a tree or a blade of grass that wasn't carefully planted and manicured inbetween the sidewalk blocks. And there are those who must have nature in their everyday lives to breath, to thrive, to feel alive, serene, calm and connected. Love, sex, emotional intimacy, is the same thing.

I'm just saying also, that it's prevalant in our society that people who don't succeed in getting a quality person to love them and making a good home and having kids, these people to a large extent are seen as failures, losers, or at least as people who have missed out somewhere. matthew Perry said in an interview once that it was important on the last season of Friends that they move on, grow up and get married because he said "you don't want to see these 6 people just being losers and never marrying or having families." I also read a survey done in Psychology Today of health care workers and physicians, and about 60% of the physicians who responded admitted that they give better, mor thorough care and more complete follow up care to people who are married and/or have kids because they consider their health and their lives more important than single people's lives. A wife and mother is missed. A little Carrie Bradshaw type who doesn't have a "real life" and only lives for herself isn't. NOW, I'M NOT SAYING I AGREE WITH THIS ATTITUDE!!! I'm just saying this attitude it out there, and it's very strong, and it's hard to fight when you look at your over 40 life and see nothign of real meaning and you could fall off the face of the earth tomorrow and no one would even notice let alone give a crap, or you could die and there's no one home to even know, you'd lie there dead until the smell drifts into the hallway of your apartment complex. That's just sad. It's just sad for some people to not get to have a "real life."

And to me, saying you're as happy as you think you are, I personally feel that's just like saying "you're as hungry as you think you are." You can convince yourself to not think about food for a while, you can go awhile without it, but sooner or later, you must get fed or you'll die. You can't will yourself to live if your body is not getting fed, no matter how steely you think you are. I think the soul is the same thing FOR SOME PEOPLE. You can't will yourself to be happy when you don't have what is essential to your happiness.

So what's the solution? I dont' think there is one. We all have to deal with our own demons our own way. I think we just have to accept that some people do the "brave single gal" schtick better than others, and that has to just be ok. It's not a failing to face the fact that you just don't have what is essential to your happiness, and may never get it, and therefor may never know real happiness and peace. It's just honest.

lb07maricopa 11-15-2007 03:43 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=pendulum;3307797]I want to respond to this post, but I am afraid of wandering away. In any case, I will try to be brief.

"Fundamental ť mesmo o amor, ť impossŪvel ser feliz sozinho." Which reads in English: "Love is the only fundamental thing, it's impossible to be happy alone/by yourself."
...[/QUOTE]

I agree with Pend - Men and women are meant to be together. Thank goodness there are billions of people on earth today and we have choices, but, men and woman NEED each other. I know, in this day and age, so many women, especially; say, 'you dont need a man to make you whole', well, actually, we do and so does a man need a woman.
Dont shoot the messenger, this is a SPIRITUAL, human fact of life; deny it as you might; it is and will be true whether you like it or not. so, quit trying to convince yourself that you dont need a man, that you are happy alone cause its not true; you're lonely and you know it.
I know a saying in spanish (mejor solo que mal acompaneado) better alone than badly accompanied. but eventually, you will still need someone a companion and for the most part, i think people eventually find someone that they are happy with for the long haul;)
lb

rosequartz 11-15-2007 03:47 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=lb07maricopa;3308653]I agree with Pend - Men and women are meant to be together. Thank goodness there are billions of people on earth today and we have choices, but, men and woman NEED each other. I know, in this day and age, so many women, especially; say, 'you dont need a man to make you whole', well, actually, we do and so does a man need a woman.
Dont shoot the messenger, this is a SPIRITUAL, human fact of life; deny it as you might; it is and will be true whether you like it or not. so, quit trying to convince yourself that you dont need a man, that you are happy alone cause its not true; you're lonely and you know it.
I know a saying in spanish (mejor solo que mal acompaneado) better alone than badly accompanied. but eventually, you will still need someone a companion and for the most part, i think people eventually find someone that they are happy with for the long haul;)
lb[/QUOTE]

sounds like more PROJECTION from someone who thinks THEY THEMSELF need a man......
:rolleyes:
please don't tell everyone else that they aren't happy without a man.....that's just nonsense......
maybe YOU'RE not happy without a man......I'm just fine, as I'm sure many people are......
did you ever see the t-shirt "a woman needs a man, like a fish needs a bicycle"

GypsyArcher 11-15-2007 04:07 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
In my experience, nothing beats the feeling of being in love. (Or thinking that you are in love LOL). But love is just a drug, really.

I don't think anyone literally NEEDS to be in a relationship or have a signifigant other. I could spend the rest of my life by myself if I had to, with my computer and television and cat. But the amazing rush you get when you are in love...just looking at another person and feeling a shiver go through your whole body, feeling your heart jump right up into your throat, feeling a strange surge of pride and joy that they are yours, looking into somebody's eyes and seeing their soul...how could that be beat?

That said, I don't believe that love is real. I do think it is an illusion, a drug. But it's a nice feeling nonetheless.

brook65 11-15-2007 04:09 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=pendulum;3308448]
Love comes first for me, perhaps not for everyone else on these boards. I need a lot of things to feel happy, but without love my happiness wouldn't be complete. But yes, that is me, maybe only me.

[/QUOTE]


Yeah I agree, I also am like you in that I need and desire love and romance in my life to keep 'me' happy. Without my lovely partner I would feel very sad and very alone.

But I also appreciate that some people are different, they don't need a romantic partner to feel complete and to feel happy, those people can find happiness in other forms, being freinds, family, spiritual things, or simply the joy of being alive and healthy.

Happiness in being single, is either by acceptance or choice I think:)

Larrylou'smom 11-15-2007 04:16 PM

Re: Long-term single Ė Iíve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=pendulum;3308448]
My original point can be thus summed up: once you have known romantic love, it is impossible or very difficult to be as happy again without it. There are people who will never experience that kind of love, so they will be happy without it, in default, so to say.

Yes, indeed we are all different. We could have come from different planets, if you want to know. Love comes first for me, perhaps not for everyone else on these boards. I need a lot of things to feel happy, but without love my happiness wouldn't be complete. But yes, that is me, maybe only me.

Anyway, listen to Jobim's song. It's very beautiful.[/QUOTE]

No, you're certainly not the only one, a lot of us feel that way. I had a totally different attitude when I was younger, in my 20s. I was perfectly fine on my own, I was happy and felt I could live the rest of my life without knowing love. Then I actually got a tiny taste of what I was missing. And when it got taken away, a huge chunk of my soul got ripped away as well.

I'm not saying, and I'm sure you're not saying either, that everyone NEEDS a mate to be happy, though studies to tend to lead that way, but I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who are natural loners and are just fine without anyone else to talk to, share with, make love with, etc. What I do take exception to is being told I'm not healthy in some way or that I'm "projecting" just because i feel real value in having a partner and feel there's something, a chunk of life that's being missed out on without it. I'd say, watch the news really carefully for a few days and objectively as possible, watch how reporters report accidents and victims and the spin they put on whether a person was single or married with small babies, the things they say about the person, etc. I mean, it's something you won't see if you don't want to see. I guess it's also what truths you choose to focus on, or rather, are able to focus on. I think being fine without love, sex, companionship, is not so much a choice as it is an ability. One that some people have more of than others.


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