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Laylah 11-29-2007 08:45 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=xanadu2;3329069]Then – think what I said about caution outweighing neediness to the point where my body language makes a man wonder if I really am interested in him or not. What sort of man is not put off by that? A sex offender who doesn’t leap out of dark alleyways! [/QUOTE]

I'm finding your posts and many others on this thread quite fascinating Xanadu; thank you for starting it. I've outlined this quote above because I wanted to ask you something: Do you realise that this theory, that men are put off by a woman who's appears less interested, actually runs perfectly perpendicular to the common theory that men are enthralled by the thrill of the chase? By the challenge of attaining the unattainable?

I know one man who absolutely is not interested in the women who present as eager and accepting of his attentions, but is throughly transfixed by the women who wont give him the time of day! (and as far as I know he does not leap out of dark alleyways, lol)

I have always thought that his behaviour is entirely indicative of that fabled male pursuant charachtaristic. That he seems to be after a prize, and that the prize is not so much any individual woman, but rather the sense of having had his ego stroked once he's finally persuaded an apparently disinterested woman to stroke something else of his, if you know what I mean.

So, I'd be interested to hear what you think about that; do you think that possibly it can work both ways, but that perhaps it's the case that more men are actually turned off by a standoffish attitude than turned on by it? And if that is true, then why do you imagine it, as the more common scenario, has never worked its way into romantic folklore?

xanadu2 11-30-2007 02:10 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=Laylah;3329111] I'm finding your posts and many others on this thread quite fascinating Xanadu; thank you for starting it.

[/quote]

Thanks, Laylah! ;)

[QUOTE=Laylah;3329111]

I've outlined this quote above because I wanted to ask you something: Do you realise that this theory, that men are put off by a woman who's appears less interested, actually runs perfectly perpendicular to the common theory that men are enthralled by the thrill of the chase? By the challenge of attaining the unattainable?

I know one man who absolutely is not interested in the women who present as eager and accepting of his attentions, but is throughly transfixed by the women who wont give him the time of day! (and as far as I know he does not leap out of dark alleyways, lol)

I have always thought that his behaviour is entirely indicative of that fabled male pursuant charachtaristic. That he seems to be after a prize, and that the prize is not so much any individual woman, but rather the sense of having had his ego stroked once he's finally persuaded an apparently disinterested woman to stroke something else of his, if you know what I mean.

So, I'd be interested to hear what you think about that; do you think that possibly it can work both ways, but that perhaps it's the case that more men are actually turned off by a standoffish attitude than turned on by it? And if that is true, then why do you imagine it, as the more common scenario, has never worked its way into romantic folklore?[/QUOTE]


Laylah, :)

Looking back at the sex offender, I guess he did see me as a challenge to be conquered for the sake of his miserable little ego. :mad:

Otherwise, I think I met this theory long ago, not recently, and, as far as I remember, superimposed it on top of the rest of whatever I was doing, to convince myself I was ‘doing the right thing.’

>>>So, I'd be interested to hear what you think about that; do you think that possibly it can work both ways, but that perhaps it's the case that more men are actually turned off by a standoffish attitude than turned on by it? <<<

In my teens and twenties I was told by my peers to do this, do that, do the other (always things I was uncomfortable with) or I would be ‘left on the shelf.’ That was depicted as a dread fate, and of course it has happened, except that I thoroughly enjoy my brand of it! So other girls recognised that I was doing something wrong, even though I thought it was right, and associated the ‘correct’ things I was told to do with being unhappy.

If a man was to like me in the dreaded high heels and make-up, I would feel that he hadn’t fallen for me at all, but with an image that he had confused with me. The real ‘me’ was lurking under the surface, unloved, but sooner or later would surface, to be greeted with a lot of criticism for differing from his expectations.

>>>And if that is true, then why do you imagine it, as the more common scenario, has never worked its way into romantic folklore? <<<

Or, as I put it, there is not a single standard cliché to support it? I think it must be because it contradicts a much commoner cliché. ‘Never mind dear, every nice person always meets the right partner, sooner rather than later.’ I believe people cling to this one because it reassures them that they won’t end up alone and lonely, and not because it’s true!

I feel this cliché causes other theories to be suppressed. In fact some of the most difficult discussions of the subject I can remember revolve around someone deciding that all my problem would be solved if only she hammered home the idea that the right man will inevitable come soon, if [I]*only* [/I] I believe what she’s saying. Of course I believe these people to have a totally superficial view of what I am trying to explain, so they want to tidy me into a little pigeonhole to gain the personal satisfaction of having ‘helped’ me. :blob_fire:

In fact this cliché has been hammered home so often that it makes me want to throw up, and I am very careful not to discuss my love life with anyone who might insult my intelligence with it. Not that you are insulting my intelligence at all, because you said something completely different! :angel:

The nearest the agony aunts get to it is the ‘self-fulfilling prophecy.’ More about this later. The only reason I can think of for it lying outside all the normal boxes is that for this caution to be carried to such a degree, is probably very rare, just as waiting 40 years for your first long-term relationship is very rare.

On top of this, I don’t even feel bitter about the long-term effects of what I think my parents did to me, because it just drove me into a deeper, more fulfilling relationship with Nature. :angel:

JennyLee123 11-30-2007 05:49 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=Laylah;3329111]I'm finding your posts and many others on this thread quite fascinating Xanadu; thank you for starting it. I've outlined this quote above because I wanted to ask you something: Do you realise that this theory, that men are put off by a woman who's appears less interested, actually runs perfectly perpendicular to the common theory that men are enthralled by the thrill of the chase? By the challenge of attaining the unattainable?

I know one man who absolutely is not interested in the women who present as eager and accepting of his attentions, but is throughly transfixed by the women who wont give him the time of day! (and as far as I know he does not leap out of dark alleyways, lol)

I have always thought that his behaviour is entirely indicative of that fabled male pursuant charachtaristic. That he seems to be after a prize, and that the prize is not so much any individual woman, but rather the sense of having had his ego stroked once he's finally persuaded an apparently disinterested woman to stroke something else of his, if you know what I mean.

So, I'd be interested to hear what you think about that; do you think that possibly it can work both ways, but that perhaps it's the case that more men are actually turned off by a standoffish attitude than turned on by it? And if that is true, then why do you imagine it, as the more common scenario, has never worked its way into romantic folklore?[/QUOTE]

I think most men are turned off by a standoffish woman. I have often been described as that, and I miss out on so many opportunities which is why I am always dateless. Nowadays, men are not up for the chase. There are so many easy avenues for guys to get an 'easy lay' or to find Ms. Right, that if a girl doesn't appear warm & charming enough for him he'll easily pass her up and think nothing of it.

Laylah 11-30-2007 09:17 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=JennyLee123;3329441]I think most men are turned off by a standoffish woman. I have often been described as that, and I miss out on so many opportunities which is why I am always dateless. Nowadays, men are not up for the chase. There are so many easy avenues for guys to get an 'easy lay' or to find Ms. Right, that if a girl doesn't appear warm & charming enough for him he'll easily pass her up and think nothing of it.[/QUOTE]

So do you mean to say you think men have become lazy JennyLee? That they've actually been conditioned by the typical female response in modern society to believe there's no point in or need to chase anymore? If so, I fear you might be right, though I don't like to think it, because I quite enjoy being chased! :)

Laylah 11-30-2007 09:41 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=xanadu2;3329278] Looking back at the sex offender, I guess he did see me as a challenge to be conquered for the sake of his miserable little ego. :mad: [/QUOTE]

Firstly Xamadu, I'm very sorry; I must have missed that post and didn't realise you were talking about a run-in with an actual sex-offender! I thought you were being flippant; I haven't read all of the posts on this very long thread.

I do know a woman of almost exactly your age who has been divorced many many years and couldn't be happier or more content. She also happens to live in an area suffused with the most astonishing natural beauty (in the rugged west of Ireland. Have you ever visited? Perhaps you should do that sometime.); this seems to have a calming affect on some women. For me, I love to visit her there and I have a fantasy of a little cottage I could run off to write in for weeks at a stretch, but I'm too much in love with the city of my birth to consider moving full-time.

[QUOTE=xanadu2;3329278] If a man was to like me in the dreaded high heels and make-up, I would feel that he hadn’t fallen for me at all, but with an image that he had confused with me. The real ‘me’ was lurking under the surface, unloved, but sooner or later would surface, to be greeted with a lot of criticism for differing from his expectations. [/QUOTE]

I found this quote very interesting; it reminds me of the way I dreaded being seen for the first time without make-up by a man I was seeing (during the years when I wore it every day, thesedays it's more common I'll not wear it then I will) There was always that feeling of being seen 'without the mask', and the anxiety over whether I'd measure up in the same way that I had while wearing it. I'd be willing to bet this is a very common anxiety among women.

[QUOTE=xanadu2;3329278]Or, as I put it, there is not a single standard cliché to support it? I think it must be because it contradicts a much commoner cliché. ‘Never mind dear, every nice person always meets the right partner, sooner rather than later.’ I believe people cling to this one because it reassures them that they won’t end up alone and lonely, and not because it’s true![/QUOTE]

Yes, people do have a tendency to believe what they find most palatable, even if it requires them to reject what may be staring them in the face. It would make you wonder about whether or not commonsense is inherent to humans at all actually, because if to accept that men were less inclined towards 'standoffish' women was also to guard against the very fear expressed by the cultural belief that the 'right one' is waiting around the corner, then surely it would be the more logical beleif to embrace!

I don't think I've ever heard a truer adage than: "Commonsense is not that common"! :)

JennyLee123 11-30-2007 11:12 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=Laylah;3329772]So do you mean to say you think men have become lazy JennyLee? That they've actually been conditioned by the typical female response in modern society to believe there's no point in or need to chase anymore? If so, I fear you might be right, though I don't like to think it, because I quite enjoy being chased! :)[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, most men have become lazy. Men view playing hard to get as "childish games" and the guys of our time have too big of an ego to chase after a lady. I don't see playing hard to get all that beneficial to a woman unless the guy is like already madly in love with her or something:)

bulletproof 11-30-2007 11:35 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=JennyLee123;3329921]Unfortunately, most men have become lazy. Men view playing hard to get as "childish games" and the guys of our time have too big of an ego to chase after a lady. I don't see playing hard to get all that beneficial to a woman unless the guy is like already madly in love with her or something:)[/QUOTE]

This is kind of a huge generalization, no? Men have become lazy? The guys of our times? Maybe you need to expand your social circle because I know plenty of men who are not lazy or egomaniacs.

I get really disappointed by the male-bashing I see on these boards, but I suppose it's par for the course if people have intially come here because they've been hurt by men.

GypsyArcher 11-30-2007 12:06 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
LarryLou'smom and xanadu2, I have done some thinking and I believe I have found the solution as to why you can't find a relationship or a good man.

1) You're too sane.
2) There are no good men. (Okay, a limited supply).

When I was eighteen, I happened to watch this movie, and the main character was someone that people absolutely fawned over, they just fell at his feet, even though he was selfish and insensitive and did whatever he wanted to do, whenever he felt like doing it. The whole thing really stuck with me and as odd as it may sound, he became my idol. That is how I live - I do what I want to do, I'm extremely selfish and self-involved, I cheat, I lie, I drink to excess, I live for the moment, chasing after whichever pleasure catches my attention in the moment. I'm a hapless party girl, have a roving eye and roving hands, proudly carry the reputation of a loose woman, trust no one, don't believe in love, and take nothing or no one truly seriously. And preversely, I have men falling at my feet wherever I go. I have men giving me money just because they say a girl like me shouldn't have to work.

And then here we have women like my homegirl LarryLou'smom and xanadu2, who are the complete opposite of myself - extremely intelligent, independent, put together, self-supporting, classy, funny, sane. And you ladies can't get a boyfriend to save your lives...well, I've done some thinking and come to the conclusion that men just don't want an intelligent, independent, put-together, self-supporting, classy, funny and sane woman.

It seems to me that most men are easily bored and just LOVE chaos and drama. One of my exes had an ex-girlfriend who was the axis of evil - she'd stabbed him once, and he was still in love with her. We were at a party in another state once, and she'd somehow tracked down the number of the party and called him. We were in the middle of making out, but he stopped and actually got on the phone with her and argued with her for a half hour while I sat there on the bed in disbelief. So after awhile I just got up and left the bedroom and made out with some strange guy in the hallway. And now that same ex wants to get back with me. Plus, the ex that I just recently broke up with wants to get back together with me too, and he tells me that he doesn't care if I sleep with other guys, as long as he can see me every once in awhile.

They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease; well the crazy girl also gets the guys. People like to be entertained. They like to be amazed and horrified. This is why movies and books are so popular. People want to be entertained, but in a guilty pleasure way.

Besides, I've already come to conclusion that love is not real, it is an illusion, a trick our minds play on us. So I'm not out there looking for Mr Right or Mr Perfect, I'm just out there to have a little bit of fun, and that takes the pressure off of everybody.

So I think if you have the trifecta of Crazy, Cynical and Scantily Dressed, then you're good. Not saying you should be like me, or that you'd even want anything to do with most of the guys I associate myself with.

[QUOTE]There are so many easy avenues for guys to get an 'easy lay' or to find Ms. Right, that if a girl doesn't appear warm & charming enough for him he'll easily pass her up and think nothing of it. [/QUOTE]

Eh, I don't know if I believe that. I'm not warm or charming, in fact most of the time I have the personality of a paperclip. As I said above it is the trifecta of Crazy, Cynical and Scantily Dressed that is your passport to success. The less interested I act in someone, the more interested they are in me. And vice versa.

Yeah, one day I'm going to get older and I won't be cute anymore, but I'll still be crazy and cynical, so two out of three ain't bad.

Larrylou'smom 11-30-2007 01:05 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
LOL! My goodness! Well thanks for the compliments, Gypsy, and while I found your post very amusing, I do hope you aren't so hard on yourself in reality.

I do agree that there is a definite shortage of good men. Someone once asked me a long time ago why I couldn't get over my ex, why I still thought of him after so many years. She said "what did this guy have, a huge you-know-what" except she phrased it another way. People really can't understand why I can't get over him, I've been called "obsessed," "crazy," been told by friends and family to just "get OVER it!!" I was thinking of an example the other day of why it's so hard for me. I was driving a broken down piece of tin when I was dating my ex for the first year and it broke down in front of his house once. I couldn't move it for a week. His roommate, one of the friends who had since told me to just get over it, didn't like having my car in front of his house so long. He took the spare key I left and tried to start it. It wouldn't. On his way back into the house, he dropped my key and it fell through the slats in the wooden porch to the ground underneath. He called me with an "oh well" attitude and told me I'd have to bring my own key and get another copy, that he'd lost my spare. My boyfriend on the other hand, who wasn't even the one who had dropped the key, and who was concerned about me and my car rather than being inconvenieced by my car being outside his house, and who gladly gave me a ride whenever I really needed it, went out on the porch with a coat hanger and spent several minutes fishing my key out from under the porch. I didn't even ask him to. Like I've said, he wasn't perfect by any means, but he had a goodness in him that is rare and very very hard to find. Yes, there are more fish in the sea, there are men everywhere to be had, but not all of them would fish out my key with a coat hanger for me. It just kills that I had that and blew it and lost it. Forgiveness is a big part of letting go and moving on. I haven't figured out how to forgive myself for my mistakes and missteps that cost me a good man, that made the difference between the life I have and the life I could have had.

rosequartz 11-30-2007 01:29 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
LLM - I think you may be focusing on the good things like how he fished out your key with the coat hanger, and forgetting about the bad things. That's how the mind works when someone is gone from our life, thru death or a breakup. The departed one all of a sudden is remembererd as a saint, etc. I think a lot of guys would fish out that key like that with the hopes of getting lucky with a girl, etc. Guys will jump thru hoops if they think there's something on the other side. The grass isn't always greener and I think you worry too much about what may have been, etc. Have you ever heard the saying, be careful what you wish for? Don't you know a lot of married people or even just couples who's relationships are a source of stress to them? I sure do.....there is always some drama going on. I'm guessing that guy isn't as great as your mind has embellished him to be. Think about it.......
:angel:

Laylah 11-30-2007 01:31 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=GypsyArcher;3330001] I do what I want to do, I'm extremely selfish and self-involved, I cheat, I lie, I drink to excess, I live for the moment, chasing after whichever pleasure catches my attention in the moment. I'm a hapless party girl, have a roving eye and roving hands, proudly carry the reputation of a loose woman, trust no one, don't believe in love, and take nothing or no one truly seriously. And preversely, I have men falling at my feet wherever I go. I have men giving me money just because they say a girl like me shouldn't have to work.

And then here we have women like my homegirl LarryLou'smom and xanadu2, who are the complete opposite of myself - extremely intelligent, independent, put together, self-supporting, classy, funny, sane. And you ladies can't get a boyfriend to save your lives...well, I've done some thinking and come to the conclusion that men just don't want an intelligent, independent, put-together, self-supporting, classy, funny and sane woman.

It seems to me that most men are easily bored and just LOVE chaos and drama. One of my exes had an ex-girlfriend who was the axis of evil - she'd stabbed him once, and he was still in love with her. We were at a party in another state once, and she'd somehow tracked down the number of the party and called him. We were in the middle of making out, but he stopped and actually got on the phone with her and argued with her for a half hour while I sat there on the bed in disbelief. So after awhile I just got up and left the bedroom and made out with some strange guy in the hallway. And now that same ex wants to get back with me. Plus, the ex that I just recently broke up with wants to get back together with me too, and he tells me that he doesn't care if I sleep with other guys, as long as he can see me every once in awhile.

They say the squeaky wheel gets the grease; well the crazy girl also gets the guys.[/QUOTE]

Yeah but what sort of guys Gypsy?! To be honest I'd be in no way interested in being involved with the sort of men you're describing here. They sound like fools with lives like train wreaks who've no maturity or cop on whatsoever; in short Gypsy, and I'm not trying to be nasty here, but you're more than welcome to them, and I suspect you find them in such abundance because intelligent self-sufficient women wont have anything to do with them, which leaves a surplus of arseholes for those women who reckon arseholes are good enough for them.

I also think you have the personal potential for many more capabilities than you currently describe and I like to think that as you mature you will realise that for yourself and wave goodbye and good-riddance to the type of idiots you're entertaining at the moment.

You say you've: "come to the conclusion that men just don't want an intelligent, independent, put-together, self-supporting, classy, funny and sane woman". I'm happy to report you're very much mistaken in that conclusion. You are confusing men generally with arseholes of the male variety and assuming that they are one and the same; I'm sure the latter don't want intelligent and independent women, but I've had back to back relationships with men for seventeen years and I've been intelligent and independent every step of the way.

GypsyArcher 11-30-2007 01:51 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
They are not bad guys at all. Well most of them. (Got to have you a little bad boy every now and then ;) ) Even my half-brother - softspoken, kind and sweet and generous, ended up marrying an absolute raving lunatic of a woman. Everyone was kind of like "What the heck dude??" But he was smitten. They eventually got divorced, but it's been my experience that even the nicest, stablest of guys are mesmerized by a pretty, crazy little thing.

I am not, would not, and have never been involved with a guy who would abuse me, cheat on me, or in any way be a jerk to me. I demand complete and total respect, even if I don't always give it back. I do see women that are involved with real jerks - guys who have been in jail, guys who cheat, guys who take them for granted, guys who are pretty much worthless. And I can't understand that. I guess maybe because I'm a player I can spot one a mile away ;)

Larrylou'smom 11-30-2007 01:56 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=rosequartz;3330173]LLM - I think you may be focusing on the good things like how he fished out your key with the coat hanger, and forgetting about the bad things. That's how the mind works when someone is gone from our life, thru death or a breakup. The departed one all of a sudden is remembererd as a saint, etc. I think a lot of guys would fish out that key like that with the hopes of getting lucky with a girl, etc. Guys will jump thru hoops if they think there's something on the other side. The grass isn't always greener and I think you worry too much about what may have been, etc. Have you ever heard the saying, be careful what you wish for? Don't you know a lot of married people or even just couples who's relationships are a source of stress to them? I sure do.....there is always some drama going on. I'm guessing that guy isn't as great as your mind has embellished him to be. Think about it.......
:angel:[/QUOTE]


I'm sure there's a lot of truth to what you say, Rose. Though one thing, the key incident happened about a year after we had started dating, so he had already gotten as lucky as he was ever going to get with me without a wedding ring, so I know that's not why he did it. You'll just have to trust me on this, there was a side to him that was incredibly sensitive, loving, caring and generous, much moreso than any man you could imagine. He didn't do things to score points or to get something in return. He was very sincere that way. I know he wasn't playing a part to me in THAT respect, though he did in other ways. But that's what I find most confusing and hardest to get over. It was almost like he was two different people. He had this wonderful side to him, but there was also a side that was easily irritated, irritable, short fused, even verbally abusive. And I know both sides were authentic. I really could read him like a book. I could usually tell when he was lying to me. IN one way I feel like I knew him very well and he never put anything over on me, but in another way, he fooled me completely. I spent two years spinning on my head hopping on one foot trying to make the good side stay and the bad side go away for good, to no avail. I know Im reading a great deal into this, but it feels awful to think that I couldn't do that, but some other woman did and is now reaping the wonderful benefits of having that good side all to herself all the time. I know for a fact he does do things for her he never did for me. It's hard not to feel like my love just wasn't any good, that if I had been a better woman, if my love had been better, if I had been worthy of love and the kind of woman deserving of love and loyalty and having a good man love me, he would have been better to me and would have stayed with me instead of marrying someone else.

My head knows we had too many differences, and I wasn't the one for him, and it wouldn't have worked, of course. My stupid heart just won't stop mourning, though.

rosequartz 11-30-2007 02:16 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
LLM what you've just said about him makes me wonder if he was bi-polar ?
my ex-husb was and he was like dr jeckyl and mr hyde. So nice and loving, and then he could snap and be a whole different person. If this guy was abusive (even verbally), and possibly bi-polar, trust me, you're better off without him. Also stop fantasizing that some other woman "won the prize", he may be making her miserable in those same ways. And if he is/was bi-polar there is nothing you or I can do to be a better woman or partner. That's where I went wrong for 10 years, thinking I was doing something wrong, thinking if only I did XYZ, maybe he wouldn't snap and get mad.......
nope we didn't break it and we can't fix it.

Laylah 11-30-2007 02:46 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=GypsyArcher;3330218] I am not, would not, and have never been involved with a guy who would abuse me, cheat on me, or in any way be a jerk to me. I demand complete and total respect.. [/QUOTE]

And you reckon you got it from that bloke who got into it on the phone with another woman while you'd just been making out on the bed? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry Gypsy, but I'd honestly rather go celibate than get involved with the type of guys you described in that last post!

bulletproof 11-30-2007 03:36 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=Larrylou'smom;3330130]
He took the spare key I left and tried to start it. It wouldn't. On his way back into the house, he dropped my key and it fell through the slats in the wooden porch to the ground underneath. He called me with an "oh well" attitude and told me I'd have to bring my own key and get another copy, that he'd lost my spare. My boyfriend on the other hand, who wasn't even the one who had dropped the key, and who was concerned about me and my car rather than being inconvenieced by my car being outside his house, and who gladly gave me a ride whenever I really needed it, went out on the porch with a coat hanger and spent several minutes fishing my key out from under the porch. I didn't even ask him to. Like I've said, he wasn't perfect by any means, but he had a goodness in him that is rare and very very hard to find. Yes, there are more fish in the sea, there are men everywhere to be had, but not all of them would fish out my key with a coat hanger for me. It just kills that I had that and blew it and lost it. Forgiveness is a big part of letting go and moving on. I haven't figured out how to forgive myself for my mistakes and missteps that cost me a good man, that made the difference between the life I have and the life I could have had.[/QUOTE]

This is the saddest thing I ever read. It is not a rare quality for a person to take a few minutes to fish a key out of a porch. And the fact that this is remembered ten years later and trumps being verbally abusive and according to you, borderline physically abusive, is just unbelievable. The situations you've described many, many times do not paint the picture of a man possessing any special 'goodness', and certainly not more 'goodness' than the average human being.

I know it is hard to have friends and family tell you to get over it and move on, but they are trying to help you. And they are right. It's been too long. Get help with this, you're torturing yourself for no reason.

JennyLee123 11-30-2007 04:14 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE]So I think if you have the trifecta of Crazy, Cynical and Scantily Dressed, then you're good. Not saying you should be like me, or that you'd even want anything to do with most of the guys I associate myself with.

[/QUOTE]

That's *exactly* what it is. I've been told that I am not fun enough because I don't drink, smoke or go clubbing every night. Some guys have even described me as being bourgeis. Being wholesome is not exactly going to win you a lot of dates even if you are really pretty. Sure, I get some guys who appear interested and wouldn't mind sleeping with me but they don't put in a lot of effort because I don't exude that crazy and extroverted vibe. this is something that i have been very insecure about. i even beat myself up over it. i thought going to a bar and having a few drinks by myself, easily weaning myself onto drinking and stuff to make myself appear more approachable and less bourgeis.

my ex friend who i was envious of because she had a boyfriend was defintely batsh1t crazy and a troublemaker. she'd tell me stories of how she cursed out some old guy in mcdonald's or almost got into a fight with the manager at burger king. her boyfriend is the complete opposite, he's attractive, calm, very lazy but if he saw his potential he'd be in a better place than he is now. and i never saw what he got in my friend. she's not that pretty yet she's crazy. you'd think he'd at least settle for a girl who was at least a hottie but crazy. oh well..

Laylah 11-30-2007 04:35 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=bulletproof;3330369] It is not a rare quality for a person to take a few minutes to fish a key out of a porch. And the fact that this is remembered ten years later and trumps being verbally abusive and according to you, borderline physically abusive, is just unbelievable. The situations you've described many, many times do not paint the picture of a man possessing any special 'goodness', and certainly not more 'goodness' than the average human being. [/QUOTE]

Firstly, Larrylou'smom; Rose made an important point earlier; the woman your ex is now with has also inherited Mr Hyde along with Dr Jeckyl, so you probably ought to stop imagining how perfect their life has turned out to be.

In relation to the quote above; I'm sorry LLM, but I have to support Bulletproof in this comment. I have [I]NEVER[/I] been intimately involved with a man, nor accepted a friend into my life, nor even [I]come across[/I] very many people who wouldn't take the time to do such a simple thing for somebody... anybody!

This is something I'd be willing to do for a total stranger, as I'm sure the majority of people would be. In fact, I've done more for total strangers; I once walked with a stranger for about half an hour in the snow to get her to her front door because she was a very young woman and seemed to me to be pretty naive and not streetwise enough to be out walking in the dark in the early hours of the morning, and that was considerably more taxing than fishing a key out of a drain since I had to freeze my arse off for about twentyfive minutes in both directions. (I had to walk to my own home after I'd walked her to hers as this was in my pre-driving days)

My sister (only about a month ago) came home from work at 2am and made up a packet of sandwiches and heated soup in a flask for some poor character waiting on the footpath for an airport bus that apparently wasn't due to arrive for a further two hours. My sister inquired what she was doing sitting at the side of the road at 2am and promptly ran back down to that girl with hot soup and sandwiches when all she wanted to do was get into her bed at the end of a long shift at work.

I really don't mean to be hurtful here LLM, and I am genuinely sorry to have to say this; but decency is more commonplace than you seem to realise and if this is how you measure the goodness inherent to this man I think it's time you reevaluated your ideas about what makes a person special. :(

Laylah 11-30-2007 05:33 PM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=JennyLee123;3330410]That's *exactly* what it is. I've been told that I am not fun enough because I don't drink, smoke or go clubbing every night. Some guys have even described me as being bourgeis. Being wholesome is not exactly going to win you a lot of dates even if you are really pretty. Sure, I get some guys who appear interested and wouldn't mind sleeping with me but they don't put in a lot of effort because I don't exude that crazy and extroverted vibe. this is something that i have been very insecure about. i even beat myself up over it. i thought going to a bar and having a few drinks by myself, easily weaning myself onto drinking and stuff to make myself appear more approachable and less bourgeis. [/QUOTE]


This is a sad but perfect example of how some young women are coerced into believing being themselves is [I]just not good enough[/I].

The reason guys don't put in that extra effort with you JennyLee is not because you don't exude "that crazy and extroverted vibe" (:rolleyes:); it's because you don't exude that slutty and whoerry vibe. - It's because they know you're not about to fall down and throw your legs open after a bottle of vodka like a lot of your peers.

I'm sorry to be so vulgarly blunt, but that is the truth of the situation. I'm sorry, but a lot of you young women need to wake up and the * cop on!

Larrylou'smom 12-01-2007 03:04 AM

Re: Long-term single – I’ve found the answer!
 
[QUOTE=bulletproof;3330369]This is the saddest thing I ever read. It is not a rare quality for a person to take a few minutes to fish a key out of a porch. And the fact that this is remembered ten years later and trumps being verbally abusive and according to you, borderline physically abusive, is just unbelievable. The situations you've described many, many times do not paint the picture of a man possessing any special 'goodness', and certainly not more 'goodness' than the average human being.

I know it is hard to have friends and family tell you to get over it and move on, but they are trying to help you. And they are right. It's been too long. Get help with this, you're torturing yourself for no reason.[/QUOTE]

Oh, c'mon! I'm sure it's not the saddest thing you've ever read in relation to missing/abducted children, stories from the war or Katrina, etc. It's not even the saddest thing I've read here. But, well, let's just say more goodness than any other person I've ever met. And my point is, if fishing the key out from the porch was no big deal, and it took longer than a few minutes, why didn't the guy who dropped it do it? That's just one little thing I held up as an example because it happened to cross my mind the other day. It kind of sounds to me like you've just been rather lucky in the people that you've met. I know you don't believe in luck, but I don't really see anything else that explains certain elusive things. But he was still one of the kindest people I've ever known, and one of the small handful of people I've come across in my life who cared about me as much as he did. Ironic. When I tell the truth about the bad times, I get chastised for making him out to be evil and villifying him. When I tell the truth about the good times, I get poo pooed for being pathetic and sappy and 'needing help with this.' *sigh* seems I can't win for losing!!! ;)

No, of course it doesn't trump the times he was short and verbally abusive, etc. Which is why my head knows we weren't right for each other and it wouldn't have worked, and although I miss the good times, I would never really want to go back to the way it was in total in reality. That's the biggest lesson I learned from the whole experience, and why I don't take garbage from people, potential dates, etc. like I used to, so in that respect, the experience was a good thing, painful as it was. But like I said, that doesn't stop my heart from missing the good times, and there were some really great times, too. As much of a pain as he could be sometimes, the best times with him were some of the very best times of my life. I have "gotten help" with this, actually, four years worth. It just didn't take. In the end, there just aren't any words anyone can say that are more powerful than actual life experience, than actually living through, feeling, experiencing things. It would be a neat trick to "get over" what still amounts to the time in my life when I felt most alive, the only time I ever came close to feeling accepted, cared about, and that I actually belonged in this world, to get over the only hands that ever caressed my body, the only lips that ever kissed mine, by far and away the most intense and passionate and emotionally engaging experience I ever had. I think I easily could have if I had met someone else who I connected with and who treated me well and who I grew to care about on some level. That just never happened, despite my very best efforts to make it happen.


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