ADHD/ODD Killing our family!

Since you describe much fighting and arguing at night when the Concerta has worn off, you may find that an afternoon dose of Ritalin will bring some peace to your family. During starvation, stomach acid production goes down, not up. Although the body consumes its own muscles mass during starvation (after depleting fat), the stomach will not consume itself. If your son does develop heartburn on the afternoon Ritalin, your family physician should be able to easily treat it. Again, smoothies with protein powder work well for the decreased appetite from Ritalin. Also, Ensure Plus is an excellent supplement and can be purchased at any pharmacy without a presecription. The low appetite can also be a symptom of depression.

blackbelt1,
I will have to discuss using the ridilan in the afternoon with his doctor (i'm still not sure thats the way I want to go). I do agree with you about the depression, I think that may be part of the problem.
Thanks for your input.

Good luck!

You need a break, but why don't you try a temporary one first rather than leaving your family. I know it is frustrating, and I know you are at the end of your rope, and I know that you are not the only person who is going through what you are going through. Can you go away with your 2 year old for a week - even if it is just to a friend's house, and come back recharged and ready to deal with your son? Remember, he needs you, and you are helping him by being there even if it doesn't feel like it. Just take a break, and always have something on the horizon to look forward to - something for you. It really helps.

I brought my son back to the doctor yesterday. We desided to leave him at 27mg of Concerta for now to see how things go. If it's not enough we will try adding Clonidine to it and if we have to bring his Concerta dose back up to 36mg with the Clonidine we will as a last resort.

I asked the doctor about Anger Managment and he told us of a place where we can go for that. I'm hoping with the change in meds and the Anger Managment maybe we can get a hold of this problem.

I'm also planning a weekend trip to my moms. My husband is going to keep the kids home with him so I can relax . Thank you all for your help, I will keep you informed of how things are going.

I brought my son back to the doctor yesterday. We desided to leave him at 27mg of Concerta for now to see how things go. If it's not enough we will try adding Clonidine to it and if we have to bring his Concerta dose back up to 36mg with the Clonidine we will as a last resort.

I asked the doctor about Anger Managment and he told us of a place where we can go for that. I'm hoping with the change in meds and the Anger Managment maybe we can get a hold of this problem.

I'm also planning a weekend trip to my moms. My husband is going to keep the kids home with him so I can relax . Thank you all for your help, I will keep you informed of how things are going.

Wow, I'm really intrigued by your original post, and really effected by what you and your family are going through. I'd like to respectfully give you my observations from what I read. The first thing I noticed was the trauma you and your son went through when he was very young. You mentioned trying to find day care for him at a young age, and also getting married when I think he was 5. I'm assuming that you were struggling single Mom for the first years of your son's life. I can only imagine the stress you were under, and I can only imagine how that situation could have negatively effected your son. Sometimes mental stresses like that can make the physiological stuff, the brain chemical stuff, even worse. I know for me, being in day care was somewhat traumatic because I was so attached to my mom, and my dad was non existant, that being left in day care was traumatic. I don't know exactly what your sitation was, and please please, I'm not judging, whatever you did, you did the best you could, and I have no doubt that you did it in the best interests of your son, but in the here and now, it may be helpful to think about enviromental factors from the past for you, and your son's conditions. That's another thing, in one of your posts you mentioned you were feeling distanced from your son and that you may resent him in some way. That broke my heart. Both for you and your son. I so so sorry you're feeling that way. But it reminded me of me again. Don't throw away the idea that your pain is deeper. What this all boils down to, and you can search my posts if you'd like, but I'm always advocating therapy or psychotherapy as a life saver. I take pills everyday for ADD and OCD and Depression, but I also go to therapy on a weekly basis and find it to be life saving. Have you ever thought of going to therapy, or your son going to therapy? Like serious, weekly therapy. In the same way your son takes a pill every day, therapy every week. WHatever your decisions are, good luck, love yourself and love your son, and give your husband a big kiss for helping out, and tell him to give you a big kiss for being strong.

Dear admac--

I've had 5 children, so far, only one suffered from not only Oppositional Defiance Disorder, it lead straight into Conduct Disorder. My then 15-year-old daughter ended up dating a 22-year-old child-molester just to oppose me! Now, as soon as I see any remote signs of ODD, I defuse it.

After researching the disorder, and cutting through all the bull, I found out that the problem lied with me. What researchers had found prevailed in the parenting of ODD kids, is the parent's inability to make consistent, positive discipline for their children on a regular basis.(I was NOT parented well myself) Parents would allow the child to "get away with" certain behaviors. Then, when the child's behavior became "so bad" the parent often answered with an explosive, aggressive punishment. This procrastination in parenting was due to the exhaustion and frustration from the child's overall "bad" behavior history. Certain behaviors were overlooked as they were not "as bad" as the "bad" behavior. This flexability in discipline left an "open door" punishment policy that the child interpreted as available. Therefore, the child is always "testing" the parents to see what they can get away with - certain behaviors, tantrums, attitudes exhibited by the child achieved the child's desired results. The child then gets itself into a dysfunctional pattern of behavior where negative emotion from the parents becomes the norm (frustration, anger, hostility, violence, withdrawl), and the only emotion to which the child can grasp and understand. This table needs to be turned, by first the parent removing all negative emotion from the situation. Negative reaps negative.

Next, remove all priviledges from his room and the house. Whatever his favorite things are...make him work for each and every one. For the next two months be on him like fly-paper. Watch him constantly, making sure his behavior is appropriate. And if you can't be around to watch him, make sure someone who's competant is. Contact the schools, teachers, babysitters, daycare facility, after school programs, etc., to let them know what you're doing and gain compliance from them. "It takes a Village to raise a child."

This will undoubtedly drive your kid crazy. DO IT ANYWAY. And here's the catch, do it with a smile. Not a sarcastic smile, not a sinister smile, do it with a "I'm the Mommy, I'm in control, and I love you whether you like it or not" smile. Never get angry with him as this will only fuel his rage and instigate the tantrums.

Keeping a constant eye will accomplish a few things: a) the child will understand over time that NO negative behavior will be tolerated b) help the parent establish consistent, undebatable parenting to deflect the ODD c) always disciplining with a positive attitude to achieve positive results over time d) give the child the "choice" of bad behavior okay but NO frills -- if he "chooses" good behavior, he gets frills.

Shoot for a 70/30 split - 70% positive environment - 30% discipline. At first he'll rebel violently. Let him. Make sure he's always aware of HIS "choice" to be bad or notty. That HE'S deciding to "go without." That the decision is NOT ON YOU - IT'S ON HIM!

If he continues to throw temper tantrums, watch him, then join him. The next time you run out of onion powder in front of him, THROW A RANDOM TEMPER TANTRUM. Your son WILL get angry that you're immitating him, BUT DON'T MAKE A JOKE OUT OF IT. Explain to him that you're "very angry at being out of onion powder!" Let him correct you. Start a dialogue with him. Ask him how he felt about YOU throwing the tantrum. It's amazing how differently children will act when we, as adults, mirror their behavior. Your biggest obstacle - getting your child to understand the consequence of his actions(and how dumb he looks as he probably doesn't fully understand) Another way to let him know...VIDEOTAPE HIM! Children look at themselves much differently when they can actually see themselves on television. At least my son did. After my son and I were emotionally bonded, and we had a functional relationship, I would actually threaten to show the tape to his first girlfriend when he'd tried to pull a tantrum! This of course, was a joke, but it drove the point home. I'm also the type of Mom that my kids don't put anything past. So even though I'm joking, they're also thinking "would she really?" Hmm....always keep-em on their toes.

If that approach is too radical, then the next time he throws a tantrum, HUG HIM. Chase him to hug him. Make it your sole purpose in life to hug that child every time he's out of control, and again...DO IT WITH A SMILE. Tell him how much you love him. Make a game out of it. Chances are, there aren't many times that he's hugged, as his behavior is so out-of-control right now. You're probably thinking "won't positive reinforcement only instigate more tantrums?" You'd think so, but it doesn't. Most tantrumers absolutely DON'T want human contact during the event. They've sort of re-programmed themselves to respond a CERTAIN WAY to stress in their environment. De-program them by doing the opposite of what you'd normally do or how you'd normally act in your CERTAIN WAY. Most importantly, never lose control of your temper when dealing with him, ever. You can't expect him to control his emotions if you can't control yours. Yes, you'll have to be kind of -saintly. Be his beacon, and his best example.

I guess the biggest phrase for any challenged kid is "over time." Nothing will be a quick-fix, as the behavior wasn't established quickly.(provided it isn't biological) Only consistant, positive, silly reinforcement over time will get the ODD child to behave. He's still young enough where you're not dealing with adolescence and hormones. Fix your son before they hit, or your going to have a serious Conduct Disorder problem and a child that's in jail or worse.

The ODD child was never taught HOW to "respect" HIS adults(parents) and is constantly testing the rules. He honestly does not know, he's going by HIS interpretation of respect, which obviously isn't very good. Teach him to respect you through HIS humor. Do things with him to PROVE that you WANT to be his MOM, as most of his reinforcement has probably been negative. Learn to play video games with him(try Crash Bandicoot or Spyro), interract with him on the computer(do some free personality tests, check horoscopes), buy some Mad Libs(books with fill-in-the-blanks), take your son on walks through the woods, have picnics, read from "Scary Stories to Tell in the Dark." Find any way you can to laugh and interract with your son!

Again, provided there is no biological reason for your son's behavior...Change yourself and your son will follow.

All children are born with the same instinct...to SURVIVE. How we, as children, process this instinct and learn to cope with it is entirely up to us as individuals. Some children learn at a very young age, exactly what behaviors will manipulate our environment so we can get what we need or want. And yes, even disabled children posess this quality. When children learn at a very young age that a certain behavior will achieve certain results, it is next to impossible to undo unless we parents change our ways to accomodate our individual child's "uniqueness."

I don't just advocate positive reinforcement, because it isn't enough. As parents, if we can learn to appeal to our children's POSITIVE NATURE and SENSE OF HUMOR, we'd get much further with our kids, at home and in the classroom.

C

OMG I thought you were describing my son there for a minute. My son is exactly the same. He has been diagnosed with ADHD but I can gaurantee he has ODD also. He has tantrums when he doesn't get his way and all that. If he try to punish him by putting him in his room he does lots of bad things. He has a hole in his wall, holes in his door...He is very mean to his sister. He hits her all the time, even broke her finger once. He at times is very good but then other times all he wants to do is aggravate everyone. He is very good at his frineds' houses also. He has trouble in school and doesn't get very good grades. He used to be on Concerta and it worked for a couple of years but then stopped. I will tell you though that I was told by an ADHD specialist that Concerta does work for 12 hours for SOME kids but some it doesn't. She told me that some kids actually need two doses of it during the course of the day...and he was on 54 mg.! So now he is on Dexadrine (long acting) in the morning and Dextrostat (short acting) in the afternoon. He usually is pretty good during the day but at night (once he gets home from school) it is all downhill from there. He also takes Melatonin at bedtime. He absolutely needs it to be able to sleep. It is an over the counter herbal medicine and believe it or not it really works awesome!

I first want to tell you you are not alone. I have a 10 year old son who has ADHD\ODD. The doctor tells me he thinks he also has bi-polar but he is still too young for tests. My life has never been normal since the day he was born. My marriage broke up when he was two, life has been hell for my other three children. My son has been kicked out of every place within 200 hundred miles of where we live. I know you probably feel like there is no hope. After seeing what seems like hundreds of doctors and doing dozens of tests on my son, there seems like there might be a light at the end of the tunnel. My son takes 20mg of slow release ritalin in the morning, 10mg of quick release ritalin at the same time. He takes a mood stabilizer at the same time. He takes a mood stabilizer at noon at school, and another at bed time so he can sleep. He sees a counsler once a week that comes to school, He sees his doctor every two weeks, and he has a aide at school that helps him with his problems. This did not happen overnight. It has taken years of going to mental health. Life is still a long way from perfect, but at least now i can get through the day. I also see a mental health counsler to help me deal with the day to day issues that arise because of my son. There are times when I don't like my son very much, but deep down i love him very much. I hope you get some help, because we can't handle their problems alone. I know how you can feel like giving up, but with the right medication and help from the mental health field, he can be different. I was told to never expect him to act like other kids, and I don't. I just want him to be able to be a part of this family, and to be able to share his life with us. I feel like that might be possible although it will still take a lot of work.. I hope this helps you a little to feel like life won't always be this bad.

Wow - for amoment it also sounded like you were talking about my son- he was diagnosed 6 months ago with ADHD well what a begining it was - he is on Concerta 36 mg for the day and for night I have him on Melatonin 6mg to help him go to sleep - if he didn't have the Melatonin he would be up till midnight. But I have one problem he wakes up everymorning between 5-6am and he is loud and he acts like he has been given a cup or two of sugar..he is all over the place and ends up waking up the house..My marriage is also in sorts because of his ADHD - but somedays its better than others..I hope your time away at your Moms helps you - I have a sitter that takes my son from time to time and the government here in Canada pays for it..

Good luck
Tykat

I just wanted to let you know your not alone. And i never did like parenting group but have you ever tried a group where the parents are going throw the exact same thing. Here in CO they have a group for the kids and while there in there the parents have a group and talk about what there going throw and there is an instructer who has been throw the same thing, and she gives advice on what you could do to help your child or how them being bored can be used aginst them. It helped me alot cause there were time I just wanted to give him up but you just cant give into it cause there your children and you have to do every thing in your power. Well I hope you look in to behaveral tharipy and get throw this. Sorry if i made no sence this is my first time posting. But I do wish you all the luck in the world and know your never alone.

caseypup

My husband has ADHD, and of all the strattera/concerta/dexedrine-type drugs he's taken, the one that works best is seroquel. He is of course on a large dose of strattera, but until he began the seroquel, there was no living with him. It was awful.

Seroquel is generally prescribed for schizophrenia and bipolar disease (it's an anti-psychotic), but is prescribed "off label" for depression, as a sleep aid, and in my husband's case, for ADHD. It just seems to have calmed him down and at the same time, eased his intractible depression (he's also on effexor).

I think I understand a bit of what you're going through. My husband was laid off about two years ago, and it's been straight downhill since then. Although it's never been a cakewalk, somehow we've managed for 25 years, but the last two have been sheer hell. His shrink says it's the worst case, now, of ADHD that he's seen in his whole career. (He aways did have ADHD, but not badly, and wasn't DX'd until a few years ago, when the GP prescribed dexedrine. It was hell getting him diagnosed too, because he insists there's nothing wrong and in the past, has refused to see a doctor. Oh, the years of useless counselling we've had, just b/c he just wouldn't admit that he needed treatment for ADHD.) It's somewhat better now, though.

Anyhow, I recommend Seroquel, and BTW, a second opinion.

jb
(who lives in Canada too)

I agree with caseypup you’re not alone. My son has been this way since he turned 4 and only just diagnosed within the last 18 months or so with Adhd.

He's now 10 and after many years of being accused of being a bad parent by teachers and other people, I feel that it’s only know I have come to realise that it’s not my parenting skills but something not even the previous school even mentioned.

It wasn't until we move to New Zealand 2 years ago and enrolled both our children into the local school that we were advised by his teacher there may be a medical reason to our son’s behaviour.

I feel we have been put through unnecessary pain because authoritive figures sometime don't recognise or choose to ignore these children and label them as bad children or poor parenting.

We all do the best we can in a hard situation. I love my son dearly and I was never raised to hug and kiss or even say I loved my parents but the one thing my son has given me is the ability to show affection. He's loving and cares for others. So even on a really bad day I know there’s something he will do that will make me proud of him.( Something as small as poring a drink for his older sister can sometimes make me see his not all bad)

From one desperate mum to another I know it's hard to hug and show affection to a child that seems to do things just to hurt you trust me I’ve had to learn how to hug, but I now that deep down you would die for your child as would most parents ( yes and some, we feel could quite easily drive us to our deaths) Joking aside though I hope you find that connection with your son again as I’m sure all he wants is to give his mum a big hug and let her know how much he loves you. All the best to you and your family.

i second the extreme vigilance approach outlined earlier - my older daughter was *vicious* with the temper up until i started my new approach when she was about 14. she was literally dangerous to have around her sister, since she would suddenly dart her dragonlady talons at caiti's eyes or dig them into her arm with a vicious pinch. with my new approach, i went to the extreme of installing a keylogger on the computer and spending three to five hours per night reading every single thing she did on the computer and every single thing she said to her friends while chatting.

a lot of the things she said were true (from her perspective) but hurtful - i let those slide: she's entitled to express her feelings to her friends. a lot of times, they were out and out lies and i would call her on them the very next day. a couple of times, i pulled her keester out of what could have been a very bad situation.

i called it "digital parenting" - on, or off: your choice. punishment started with "you're grounded off the computer for the next 15 minutes. log off and shut it down." if she didn't comply immediately or protested or whatever, "now you're grounded for the next half hour. log off and shut it down." then it was "nik, i'm pulling the plug at the count of five and you're grounded for 45 minutes. you will then spend 15 minutes waiting for the scan disk and virus check to finish [old computer]".

this way, i could turn the heat up degree by degree instead of ending up with something stupid like "you're grounded for the next three weeks" and getting stuck with her at home making our lives miserable. i also always gave her the option of an honourable out: "if i wash the dishes and clean the kitchen properly, can i not be grounded any more?" (hell, YEAH! - "<sigh>. i suppose so" - and think it was odd she'd rather do an hour's work instead of just wait 15 minutes!).

it paid off: she told me the other day that i "terrified" her - i was horrified! i said "i'm so sorry! i didn't mean to do that!" and she said "no, no! that was a good thing! honestly, i wouldn't have listened to anything else! and you know what? i still don't swear and i still don't let other ppl talk trash because someone's a different race or can't speak english too well because i can still feel you watching me!" (she lives in alberta, i live in ontario).

there IS light at the end of the tunnel for the most difficult of children - you just have to be stronger, more stubborn, and rigid, yet flexible. and always, always, always:

pause to criticize, rush to praise.