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    Old 02-17-2006, 10:19 AM   #16
    shelley2977
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Hi Jam338, I am hoping you might be able to shed some light on my problem. Just to give you a little back ground info, breast cancer surgery 2003,put on norco for pain from the bone damage chemo did and the surgeries I hacve had. went up to 6-7 per day. Last monday i realized i was addicted and cut back. i saw your post and slowly went from 6 to 5 to 1 1/2 to 1/2 on last sunday. Monday of this week i stopped all together., I am also on arimidex which is a anti-cancer med that i will take for 5 years. it causes severe joint pain. It is now friday and my body is filled with severe pain. i mean pain that is keeping me up all night. my doctor gave me ultram,mobic, diclofenac (all arthritis meds). i was wondering if any of this pain could possibly be from the norco withdrawals? I have only been totally off for 4 days. My lower back feels like i was hit by a car. my elbows and fingers can hardly move. i am so afraid that this is just the pain that the norco was covering up. i am taking the vitimins you suggest for pain. i need to know if you have heard of people having severe body pain (not aches) after 5 days off a drug. did i get off to quick? can you make any suggestions? thanks so much, shelley

     
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    Old 02-17-2006, 12:11 PM   #17
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Hi Shelley, I am happy to offer suggestions for you to consider and decide for yourself on your best options as I am not a medical professional. I am very sorry about your bout with cancer, prayers are with you. Very glad you recognized dependency signs and commenced a taper reduction...good for you!!! congratulations!!!

    Now, first regarding the symptoms you describe. They sound exactly like what would occur with drug withdrawals (WDs). According to the quick online research, Norco is a combination opiate derivative of both Hydrocodone (vicodin) and acetaminophen (tylenol). While WDs can vary from person to person based on individual unique chemistry balances, the typical universal WD patterns are the same as the worst flu one could imagine. In particular, the back and joint pain you describe would be very consistent opiate WDs. For some people days 3-4 are the worst and for others it can be days 5-6. The taper reduction you followed sounds like you may have tapered too quickly. Drug taper recommendations seem to vary greatly depending on the source. I have read varying taper dose recommendations that include, but are certainly not limited to, the following.

    Taper dose by 20-25%:
    -every 3-7 days (total taper elimiation would equal approximately 30 days)
    -every 30 days (total taper elimation would equal 4-5 months)

    So, it sounds like you did the total taper, 100% reduction, in about a week if I am reading your post correctly. If correct, then that sounds like a very fast taper, and would not likely eliminate or perhaps even lessen WDs. None of that is neither here or there since the good news is that you now at 4 or 5 days off Shelley, hang tough girl....you are going through the worst....know that when it is at its worst is when it is about to turn the corner and get better....do NOT abort....you have come too far.

    Next phase is that you go through your central nervous system and muscles transitioning from the drug-deadened state they have been in as a result of external blocking.....your legs will at first feel very heavy....like they are on somebody else's body....it will be hard but not completely impossible to motivate....just rest as much as you can...it will pass in about 12-24 hours.....but, it will be replaced by restless legs where the nerve endings and muscles are coming to life again....you may experience lil electrical sensory tingling where at times it feels like you are having difficulty just being still with yourself....HOT BATHS....AS MANY AS YOU WANT TO TAKE AND AS HOT AS YOU CAN STAND IT.. (I took 6-10 hot baths a day), Use ASPERCREME if you have it and if not...heating pad or fill cotton socks with rice and make hot rice packs ...2 min in microwave....once the heavy legs stop and the electric legs start you MUST exercise...hard I know because you will be exhausted but you must.....it takes 20-30 min a day to jumpstart your body's own natural endorphin system to produce its own natural dopamine which is the body's defense chemistry against pain, depression, and supports sleep cycle. The vitamin/nutritional mega-dose supplements are intended to only help bridge the process until your body can start producing for itself. The human body is truly a miracle....it WILL produce what it needs when it is not interfered with by external factors. What has happened is when we introduced external products (painkillers) into our body's factory our brains read the signals and therefore responded by shutting down the factory since the supply was being externally provided. When you abruptly withdraw the external supply, and whoaaaaaaaaaa, the ole body jumps up and down, alarm bells start clanging like mad...aka WDs.....all signaling alerts.....heyyyyyyyyyyy she quit taking the ******!!!! All your lil internal workmen are kicking the crap out of each other and YOU and running around looking for their equipment....they are not used to functioning together after the longggggggggggggg coffeebreak they have been on for months or years, however long you have been providing the external supply. But, they WILL get their act together and get back on the job and start producing what your body needs. The event that coordinates them is EXERCISE....it places an external demand on the system for more gojuice and fast....the more the demand (exercise) the more quickly organized they will get....it develops an internal rhythm for them where they function to the beat. It may all sound crazy, but it is true. If you can make yourself exercise for 20-30 min a day....it can be only walking.....we are not talking marathon running here.....start out gradual and build up...begin as soon as you can with the muscle tightening/relaxing exercises outlined in the Detox post ....then begin exercises as soon as you can even if only 5 min at time ...just do it 6 times a day and build up...just do what you can and as much as you can. After you are able to reach 20-30 min you will feel a difference within an hour of stopping. Once you start to feel it, and you WILL---I guarantee it, your own personal experience will motivate you to do more. You are sooooooooooooo close to victory lane Shelley!!!! Reread the Vicodin Home Remedy Detox post I did...there are many OTC options and suggestions.

     
    Old 02-17-2006, 12:28 PM   #18
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Shelley, I forgot to mention a caution about the Ultram aka Tramadol. Some doctors believe that Ultram/Tramadol is not addictive because it is not an actual opiate. However, it is a synthetic opiate like compound that acts like an opiate on the body's sensory perceptiors. It convincingly "acts" like an opiate, and the body reacts to it as such where it can trigger a dependency/addiction. Because much of the medical literature says it is not addictive, many doctors simply do not believe that it is. However, for those of us who have personal experiences with it, our opinions of it have been formed based on those personal experiences--not on medical literature. For many of us, our experiences with Ultram/Tramadol actually produced worse WDs than with actual opiate medications so please be very careful.

     
    Old 02-17-2006, 04:54 PM   #19
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    jam338, you are truly a gift from God. I have had horrible abdominal pain for 2 days now. when i called my internist she said i went off the norco way to quick and that i should take a norco and call a detox doctor on monday to get help to do this. my husband does not want me to take a pill and he thinks i should just bite the bullet. but even as you explained i really did go off very fast. i feel like a failure if i take a pill after a week of no pills. i have not slept due to all the pain. i also have left over pain from my 6 months of chemo so i am not even sure if the pain i have is detox or just cancer pain. what do you think? do you think i should take a norco tonight and just give my body a break and then on monday start with a professional? it seems that all oyu people were able to do it on your own and were taking many more pills daily then my 6 or 7. i am so confused. i actually only have 3 norco left so it is not like i can take any more then 1 per day. what is your experience with htis? i trust your opinion. again, thank you for taking the time to help a complete stranger. regards, shelley

     
    Old 02-17-2006, 04:56 PM   #20
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    PS i am not taking the ultram, it does not do one thing for me. nor does any of the otc stuff. all i have is severe body pain and severe abdominal pain, like i got hit by a car! thanks

     
    Old 02-17-2006, 06:58 PM   #21
    jam338
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Hi Shelley, first of all only you can decide what is right for you to do. Since your Internist has opted to simply refer you to a detox doctor then it suggests that she may not be familiar with detox or simply does not want to deal with it. I am assuming that you described the abdominal pain to the doctor when you spoke on the phone. Apparently your doctor did not feel the symptoms were at a level that should be alarming since she did not suggest that you come in to the office or go to a hospital to be examined. Opiate WDs frequently cause gastrointestinal distress as well as relentless diarrehea. So, there is a good chance that what you are experiencing could be from the WDs. If your situation was happening to me, personally I would not likely take the pill, especially since you said that you only have 3 pills left anyway. Taking 1 pill a day is unlikely to bring you substantive relief, but if the WDs are absolutely unbearable then perhaps you might reconsider it. It is a very tough decision, and one that only you can make. You are likely through the worst of it so I really hate to see you abort your detox to only start over again. But, if you have reached the personal determination that you want only to proceed with the help of professional guidance then that is exactly what you should do and have NO regrets and feel NO sense of failure or shame whatsover. Going through detox is a slippery slope for us all, and not many succeed on their first effort. Just know that you are likely through the worst of it, but follow your own personal instincts about what is best for you. Either way, you are going to be just fine

    Last edited by jam338; 02-17-2006 at 07:12 PM.

     
    Old 02-17-2006, 07:07 PM   #22
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    jam338, thank you for all the advice and support. i will discuss with my husband. regards, shelley

     
    Old 02-17-2006, 07:18 PM   #23
    jam338
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Any time Shelley, am happy to try and help if I can....it's just tough as I really don't want to recommend that you not follow your doctor's advise while at the same time I also feel that you are soooooooooooooo close to being through the worst that I just hate to see you compromise your current detox, but you must do what your own instincts tell you is best for you, and whatever that is you will be supported 100%.....please keep posting your progress so that others can learn from your experience/decisions.

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 12:37 AM   #24
    shelley2977
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    JAM338, I JUST WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT I DECIDED TO BITE THE BULLET FOR THE WEEKEND AND NOT TAKE ANY PAIN MEDS. I WILL CONTACT A DETOX DOCTOR MONDAY AND SEE WHAT HE THINKS.MY INTERNIST WAS CONCERNED DUE TO MY CANCER SITUATION AND THE FACT THAT THE CHEMO THEY GAVE ME LEFT PAINFULL SIDE EFFECTS. I STILL AM SICK AND HAVING WITHDRAWAL SYMPTEMS. I WANTED TO TELL YOU THAT I REFERRED 2 PEOPLE TO YOUR DETOX PROGRAM, I HOPE YOU DON'T MIND. THANK YOU AGAIN FOR YOUR SUPPORT . SHELLEY

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 07:03 AM   #25
    jam338
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Hi Shelley, making decisions about your needs will move you closer to success. I know it is really tough, and you are going to be just fine. Prayers are with you.

    Please feel free to refer as many people as you can to the Home Detox Post. I really don't view it as mine. I am only the coordinator of the ideas and suggestions posted by several different people over the years. I am retired and have time that others might not have to research online. So, when I decided to pursue my own home detox a year ago I researched the daylights out of several threads on several Message Boards. What I looked for were WD coping suggestions where several people were posting that they had tried something and found it helped them; whether it was a process or an actual OTC product. I used those suggestions during my own detox a year ago. I am now facing another surgery and returned to the online Message Boards to look for anything posted on post detox surgery dependency risks. In that process I read the struggles of so many people here who wanted to Home Detox but fear of WDs were either scaring them from starting or WD fears were scaring others to abort an inprogress detox. As result, my way of giving back to others was that I coordinated and posted the Home Detox to hopefully help others.

    Everyone should feel free to copy/paste/post elsewhere----the more people we can help detox the better----that is the sole purpose of the Home Detox Plan, and without others doing that the formula will vanish and then be of no benefit to anyone!

    I also hope that others will start posting more on this thread because it takes current postings to keep this thread on the main page where it is most visible to others. Without current postings this thread will move to back pages and not be as visible to new readers who may not know to scroll to back pages for other threads.

    Shelley, regarding your own situation, you have made the right decision for you hon. With detox, one of the hardest things is make that tough decision that it is time to do something about your situation. Once you put that in play, that is huge part of the battle because you have mentally associated your situation and what you need to do. Once you have formed that mental association it is like ringing a bell----and, it is impossible to unring a bell---more specifically meaning that you now can not "unthink" those assessments and determinations about your circumstances and needs. That association and self-assessment is going to constantly be nudging and corraling you towards success.

    For the benefit of others reading this post, perhaps you have tried and failed at detox. Know that no one chooses to fail at detox. The reason that people fail at detox is because of the fears of WDs. Those fears keep people from starting detox and causes people to abort detox from not knowing if what they are experiencing is normal and if it will get worst or reach a level that they can't cope or function....it is a fear of loss of control in the ability to navigate one's own body. How you combat those fears is to first educate yourself about withdrawals (WDs), what to expect, and coping options that may lessen the WDs. You can do it. If I can do it, trust me, anyone can do this. No one could possibly be more scared than what I was to home detox. I had to find a way to make it work where I told no one. No one knew about my situation, not even my family, not my doctor---though I think he had to know since he had been prescribing to me for years and knew it was an addictive drug, so how could he not know? Anyway, for me, my detox had to be discrete. I wanted NOTHING documented on my medical records that could possibly ever jeopardize me regarding future employment options or health insurance or life insurance. For me that protection was HUGE. I wanted my life back EXACTLY as it existed before....not with marred or a black mark on medical records that would follow me forever. For me, self-disclosure into my records was am adverse cause and consequence action. Like, when you put an alert on your credit card you think you are doing the right thing that will protect your credit....but after you have done it, you learn that you have blocked your own ability to do anything regarding your own credit because you are treated and responded as a potential anonymous intruder where you now have additional challenges just to handle your own needs......for me, I did not want the risk....as previously stated, you can't unring a bell once it has been rung. But, it is a decision that everyone must make for themself. There truly are people who must have self-disclosure for accountability or they know they will fail. Neither is right or wrong; whatever is right for one's own needs to successfully accomplish detox is right for them

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 02:07 PM   #26
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Ok:
    Here I am again, 23 months after going through detox and rehab from Benzos and hydros. I was using them by docs increasing prescription because I have a severe case or Restless Legs Syndrome. They worked, so I thought what the heck. Accelerated the dose because of tolereance to the point of abuse. Lost my job because of abuse. I was clean for 17 months, blew a calf muscle playing racquetball and went to a doc in the box. PUT ON MY CHART THAT I WAS IN ADDICTION RECOVERY. He prescribed soma and hydro for the pain any way. Like an idiot, I filled them both.

    Did OK for awhile, but went back to my sources for hydro. Been on them again for 6 months. At one time I was up to 10-12 a day. For the last couple of weeks it's been 5-6. I tried tapering. Didn't work. Decided to go cold turkey. I filled one last hydro prescription to do the taper "right." Listen to how smart I am: I bought valium 10s to help me sleep and with the restless legs as went through home detox. I haven't taken more than 2 per night for less than a week. But I've got a a very large supply of those.

    Now I'm out of hydro as of last night. Used my last 3. So here I am ready to go cold turkey. Nobody knows this but me. I can't stand the shame of my wife knowing that I've relapsed. One lucky thing is that because of my job, we live apart during the week, so she only sees me on weekends or every other weekend. (Probably one of the reasons I decided it was OK to use again.) Even though I was down to about a 6 a night (didn't use during the day, only in the evenings), I've already started with the body aches, flu-like symptoms, restlessness, agitation, the whole nine yards.

    I know I can do this. Even when I went through rehab under the doc's care the last time, it was pretty much cold turkey...no anti-depressants, no kind of medicine to help with the wd...two weeks of hell. The doc kept saying, "No one every died from lack of sleep or body aches." So I just toughed it out.

    The kicker is that I am a well-known man, in a small town area and the AA/NA thing is a no go locally. I was put out of my profession for a year and just got back in. If it becomes known that I relapsed by my superiors, I'm done.

    I'm ready to go cold turkey. I called in sick today and am ready to ask for two weeks vacation to get over the "flu."

    I've read some of the helps listed above. Just want to know how effective they are and what else I can do?

    I need some help, advice, and encouragement. Please. I feel so sad and so lonely, not to mention the shame. I promised myself and everyone I love that I would never be here again, and yet here I am. God, I need help and there is no one, no friend, no one I can think of that I can talk to about this mess

    I'm on Cymbalta (anti-depressant), Trileptal for axiety (an epilepsy drug), and a small dose of mirapex for the restless legs that is decreasing in its effectiveness. I am not suicidal, but I am so depressed and so alienated, My job is a "help others" job and I smile and am pleasant to get through the day, but as I am coming off the hydro, at home it's tears and walking the floor for how stupid I am. How can I be so dumb having been through this so recently. I understand if no one replies. There's good advice above. The pain, along with the shame and isolation of living alone six days a week is awful when I'm sober. It's even worse battling this addiction.

    Last edited by calforney; 02-20-2006 at 02:35 PM.

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 06:08 PM   #27
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    Hi Calforney, prayers are with you for a successful outcome. As to how effective the OTC detox options are....they have helped many many people successfully achieve detox; but there are certain things on the list that you can NOT take if you are on SSRI anti-depressants; those things are noted. I am not sure what other precautionary concerns you should have since you stated you are on epilepsy medicine. Hopefully others who are medically knowledgeable can comment. I am NOT a medical person. You stated that you have previously detoxed from Benzos and Hydros, so you know what to expect. And, you already know that detoxing from Benzos is a detox from pure hell, far worse than Hydros, so this detox should not be as bad. Also, Benzo detox has grand mall seizure risks that don't typically exist with Hydro detox. So, if you were able to accomplish it before, you will be able to accomplish it again. Since you mentioned rehab in your post I am assuming your previous detox was inpatient? Did they prescribe or provide any special treatment for you that you need to incorporate into your home detox plan?

    Everybody's body chemistry is different so it is trial & error to find what works for your own body chemistry. Those planning to home detox need to shop in advance and have WD coping options ready and available, because once full blown WDs begin you are not likely able to leave the house. You are wise to plan your time regarding work so that will relieve that worry. This is a bad flu season all over the country so you can easily pretextually use that both at work and at home. Its great if you can get 2 weeks off work. As you know, the worst of the detox will usually take a week, with about 2 days of that, usually Days4-5 or 5-6 being the worst, but the other days are no picnic. Afterwhich you will be absolutely exhausted, no energy, and may have some depression....the following week is your build back week with good nutrition, exercise, rest, nutritional supplements, hopefully a massage or two, and lots of water. It will help you to post your experience/feelings. You will not be alone. This Board has many caring people who have been through or are going through exactly what you are going through. Many will help support you through this.

    Last edited by jam338; 02-20-2006 at 06:12 PM.

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 08:37 PM   #28
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    jam338
    THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLY. I can hardly type for tears in my eyes that finally I've been able to "talk" to somebody about this relapse. My rehab last time was out-patient with no meds to counter-act the effects of wd. Just "talk therapy" and c/t.

    The epilepsy med I'm on is not for personal epilepsy. I'm not an epileptic. The doc prescribed it after detox because one of the side effects of the trileptal is that it is has mild anti-anxiety effects.

    I'll review your list above and make a shopping trip tomorrow (tonight maybe if I can't sleep - WalMart is open 24/7) My wife called just after my first post. I feel so bad about betraying her trust. She has been so great and so supportive and knew I would kick this...and here I am again. God, the guilt. Here's my deeper confession, if you don't mind hearing it: my "helping people" job is that I'm a pastor. What a hypocrite I am. Yesterday after church services, a parishioner stopped me to talk about her son's addiction. Oh, I had lots of good things to tell her. It was all I could do not to blurt out, "I'm an addict." I need so much for someone to talk to...I'm hoping this forum I just found this afternoon will help.

    I promise, I'll read very carefully your list above so that I don't do myself more harm. Right now, the body aches and headaches, the restlessness and anxiety have kicked in large. This is the time of night I always dosed up, so I can tell it's going to be a long night.

    Thanks so much for responding...for caring. If you are a praying person, please pray too, (as I will be praying and not just for myself, but for all the other poor folks on this forum trying to get clean and sober.)

    I've book marked this site on my laptop. I'll be spending lots of time reading here, I'm sure, in the coming weeks/months.

    Thanks again for letting me know there's someone out there who cares as much as one can care for someone you don't even know.

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 09:08 PM   #29
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    lucky you, on xanax, and thanks for warning readers---vs. any benzo or neuroleptic (super-benzo) opiates cause no permanent harm, WD may be hell, but you don't lose your limbic system (chemical lobotomy some 'authorities' say)---and you don't have aYear's taper to WD---followed by continuing WD episodes 'till dead---Sweden allows 8 month's paid hospitalization for long-term benzo users---'Stevie Knicks of Fleetwood Mac' was amazed at months of hospitalization for klonopin vs. a week for opiate addicts---for them it may be over, for her or i---doubtfull---in fact, as a recent Canadian study showed, serendipitously, opiates may be the benzo detox method of choice---thank you for stern warnings on xanax (librium, valium, klonopin, ativan, etc.) These common drugs really do make opiate WD look like a cakewalk---you don't know, till you're there---so i expect no understanding of greater evils---

     
    Old 02-20-2006, 09:23 PM   #30
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    Re: Vicodin Home Detox Plan

    CALFORNEY, AFTER 2 1/2 YEARS I AM ON MY 7TH DAY WITHOUT MY 6-7 NORCO. I BELIEVED THAT I COULD NOT GO WITHOUT IT. YOU AND I ARE NO DIFFERENT. I AM ALSO ON THE CYMBALTA AND I GOT SOME ATIVAN AND AMBIEN TO HELP ME SLEEP. I TAKE HOT ,HOT BATHS FOR THE LEG PAIN. I UNDERSTAND BEING ASHAMED OF YOURSELF. I THINK IN SOME WAY WE ARE ALL ASHAMED ABOUT ONE THING OR ANOTHER IN OUR LIVES. I WISH FOR YOU THE FAITH THAT GOD REALLY CAN GET YOU THROUGH THIS. I WAS DIAGNOSED WITH STAGE 3 BREAST CANCER IN 2003. I WENT THROUGH &%*&^ING HELL WITH CHEMO AND RADIATION AND I HAD 5 SURGERIES. I AM TOLD BY MY DOCTORS I HAVE A 1 IN 4 CHANCE OF DYING OF THE DISEASE. I'M 48. THE NORCO NOT ONLY TOOK AWAY MY PHYSICAL PAIN BUT IT MADE ME FORGET THAT I HAD CANCER! NOW WITHOUT THE FOG OF THE NORCO I FEEL LIFE. IT'S SCARY!
    I HAVE TO TRUST THAT GOD HAS A PLAN FOR ME AND I CAN ONLY EXPERIENCE IT IF I AM CLEAN. I BELIEVE HE HAS A PLAN FOR YOU TOO. I HOPE YOU HAVE A GOOD NIGHTS SLEEP TONIGHT AND CAN FORGIVE YOURSELF FOR BEING HUMAN. SHELLEY

     
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