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    Old 04-21-2003, 07:18 PM   #31
    EddieDean
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    I see there are a lot of posts here and I'm not sure you will have time to read mine, but I will pitch in my two cents nonetheless.

    I have to admit, when I read your posts I don't consider you to be an attractive dating partner. However, that has nothing to do with your height. It has everything to do with your perception of women, your preoccupation with status, and the fact that you seem to think you are "owed" a beautiful woman in your life. I'm not trying to offend you here, and suppose these statements are rather normal for someone who has never been in a relationship, but real love and attraction are based on NONE of these things.

    When you listed your initial qualities that make you a good dating partner, not once did you list anything that wasn't a physical trait or status symbol. You spoke of your profession, your build, your grades, your car. What about your kindness? Generosity? Sense of humor? I hope I speak for the average woman on here in saying that I could care less what my guy drives or if he weighs a few extra pounds. If I met you in a bar, I would be much more interested in whether you like kids, what you think of reality TV, and why you chose your career then how you could impress me with what you do. These are things women pick up on right away....sensitivity, compassion, a genuine kindess. Sure, nice cars and expensive clothes are flashy on the outside, but I would gloss over any guy with a cold personality no matter WHAT his profession, height, or vehicle.

    The other thing that bothers me is how you speak of your standards and how you shouldn't have to expect to settle for less because you are short. That attitude is half your problem. You assume that anyone outside of your social standing or physical expectations isn't good enough to date you. What if you met a really sweet, caring, wonderfully funny girl who had a really big nose or who worked at K-Mart? Would you refuse to date her just because she isn't up to your standards? That's exactly the same prejudices you are facing, so why are you putting these limitations on the people you date? It seems to me you want a girl who is going to make you look good, just like your car and your job and your clothes. Not once did you ever say "I really just want a great girl who can make me laugh and cares for me." You kept talking about how you shouldn't have to settle for less. What is less? Are you saying that you are too good to date someone uglier then you?I really apologize for coming off so harshly, but please take my comments to heart and correct me if I'm wrong.

    As for the height issue, I am a woman who is 5'2 and is moderately attractive. It's not exactly easy being this short in a world where the average guy is almost a foot taller then me. I've dated guys who tower over me, guys who are my height, and guys who are a few inches taller. I've dated overweight guys, skinny guys, and guys in between. I've dated guys with bad skin, guys with bad hair, and guys whose clothes I didn't like. If the guy cares for me, has a similar outlook on what life should be like, and who makes me laugh, who cares if he has a few societal flaws? If you are getting rejected by women based on your height, you are seeking the wrong type of women. And as for the ones on the internet....those are women that couldn't find men in their own lives. They are using the internet as a last attempt to meet someone they can connect to. They probably ALL put "tall dark and handsome" on their "want" list, but very few of them actually expect that this is what they are going to find. If they did, they'd be able to find a guy like that in their own lives. I wouldn't let that be a hinderance to you in talking to them online.

    Well, I've said a mouthful. Hope I wasn't too offensive, I'm just trying to show you what I as a young female of dating age see in your situation. Please fill in the facts I've mistaken, and maybe we can come up with a solution on where you can find a good woman who is right for you.

     
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    Old 04-21-2003, 10:29 PM   #32
    nadine
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    You know what, don't take what we women say in the wrong way... I think it is just a little tough love. My brother who is also 5'4" was becuase of his sincere and genuinely kind personalitiy chased after by many girls from his college- very pretty girls who would call him all the time trying to pursue him. He is married now and very happy. When you have a negative attitude, it rubs off on others and they do not want to approach you, regardless of your height. I have just given you so many examples of people I know in my life that are what you say short and nonetheless they are still being desired by the opposite sex.. so its up to you how you want to lead your life. Maybe the fault lies in you being a bit superficial??? Is it okay for you to call certain women unattractive, while condeming others for doing the same thing to you... sounds unfair of you as well.

     
    Old 04-21-2003, 11:03 PM   #33
    rk3689
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    yes, i don't take an offense to anything written here - there's nothing anybody can say to me that's any worse than things i've heard before.

    on the issue of attractiveness: i admitted up front that it is superficial of me, i'm not hiding that. the question is: can a short man, who isn't tom cruise, be initially attractive to the average woman.

    numerous times in my life, going back to high school, i've had people want to "set me up" with women they thought would be "perfect for me". in every instance (i'm not exaggerating), these were grossly overweight women.

    it's my turn to apologize for sounding harsh, but i am not physically attracted to a fat woman.

    yes, physical attraction is a factor. as for my declaring a "right", that refers to my right to have physical attraction as a factor the way my "normal" (average height - tall) peers do.

    am i doomed to any woman of average attractiveness (for the sake of argument, let's say less than 20 pounds overweight and leave it at that) always looking past me?

    do i have to "lower my sights", "set different priorities"? i'm unwilling to do that - again, i believe i have the same "right" as others not to do that.

    i must answer eddiedean's concerns about my kindness, etc. - in my profession, i am considered an outcast for being "too nice" - yes, i have had female "friends" (you know what i mean) - in counseling, my organization has a large number of female clients who will speak to no other male but me (some even prefer me over the females). yes, i listed a long list of superficial things, that was to show that i tried all the stereotype "chick magnet" stuff to no avail - always worked for my friends, though.

    is my approach lacking? i'm sure it is. i have no "approach". i became so used to rejection as a youth that i never bothered. i tend to believe that any woman i would be interested in (using the definition of "attractiveness" stated above) to be already spoken for, and i will not engage a woman i believe to be with a man - there's a part of me that believes the train has already passed me by.

    no confidence? in some areas, i am the most fiercely brave person you could ever meet. in this area, correct - no confidence, but how is that changed?

    the wrong places (bars, clubs): i can count on one hand the bars i've been in, and that was more than 8 years ago to see a buddy's band play. i've heard the "wrong places" idea before, but then when i ask people where the mystical "right places" are, no one knows.

    a word to sammy_01 - once again, he actually makes good points. the truth is, i probably wouldn't want a formal relationship either. but it seems that a relationship on some intimate level with a woman would fill something (and no, not just sex).

    as for me, therapy will continue - this kind of thing can't be resolved in a message board, but i do appreciate the respectful feedback.

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 09:45 AM   #34
    Balissa
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    I implore you to consider the contradiction in your statement that you shouldn't have to "settle" for an unattractive, or fat woman because you are shorter than average.

    I don't think you are at a place in your life where you are looking for a partner. All of the things you listed that you think are attractive in yourself are not things most women consider when choosing a partner. There are women out there who look for those types of things, status symbols, but the vast majority of women are interested in personality traits that cannot be measured by the things you listed.

    I'm 5'7" and attractive by conventional American standards. More importantly, I'm a good person. For much of my teens and early twenties I was in an on and off relationship with a great guy who happened to be several inches shorter than I am. Each time we broke up, I was left confused and hurt that he turned into a totally different person seemingly overnight. He would become obsessed with school, and later work, start spending hours in the gym and blow money on ridiculous things and basically turn into someone that I just couldn't stand. It was about two years after I called it quits for good that I realized that all of that crap came from him trying to "make up" for his height. When he would get like that, he would also become very controlling and possessive of me, something that was not normally like him. He would say things like, "You know that I'm strong, right?" and pick me up and spin me around the room to demonstrate his strength. He would start wearing these stupid Miami Vice suits all the time and drop wads of cash when we went on dates. It was just insane and very unattractive. I had to listen to his resume as an employee and a boyfriend all the time and I got sick of it.

    Another guy I dated in college was about the same height as the other guy, about 5'4" or so. He was completely comfortable with his height. This guy exuded confidence, not arrogance, and women were on him constantly when we went out. His apartment was filled with photos of beautiful women who were ex's and also still his friends. He was not as physically attractive as the other guy I dated, but he was still good-looking. The guy was a vertiable chick-magnet, and there isn't really one or two things about him that could attribute to this. He just had something about him.

    I know plenty of couples that are happily married in which the woman is taller than the man. It isn't your height that is stopping you from having a girlfriend. Your height is not causing women to not be attracted to you. Your preoccupation with your height can certainly be a contributing factor, but I assure you that this one physical trait alone is not the culprit.

    It is interesting that when I finally broke up with the first guy that I mentioned, all of the men I knew assumed that it was because he was shorter than I was. My female friends wanted to know what he did to me. No matter what other men might tell you, most women just don't think like that, the same way that most men don't have a set weight limit on the women they will date. There certainly are women out there who would not date a man shorter than she is, but is that really the kind of woman you want to be with? Even though I'm thin, there is no way I would date a man who would automatically discount a woman as a sexual, attractive being because of her weight. It seems to me that you are looking for a woman who is superficial in the same ways that you are, by your own admission, and those are the women most likely to avoid men shorter than they are.

    I suspect that part of your problem may the way you think of women as partners. You might not have any problems with having women as friends, but potential romantic partners can generally sense this kind of thing. You feel entitled to a certain "type" of woman. You talk about finding a woman the way one might talk about finding a new car or apartment.

    Best of luck to you, seriously. You really do seem to be looking to fix this, but I honestly think that you are looking in the wrong places within yourself.

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 10:22 AM   #35
    PAISLEY
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    "yes, i have had female "friends" (you know what i mean) - in counseling, my organization has a large number of female clients who will speak to no other male but me (some even prefer me over the females). "


    No, actually I don't know what you mean!! Please clarify. Also, why not make friends OUTSIDE of work? Not to pry into your life, but why do you work so much?

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 10:22 AM   #36
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    Now hearing what Rk had to say about what he found "attractive", I think it is okay... I think most people have their list of physical attributes they want their potential partner to have, they may not say it out loud, but it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. My brother also wanted to find a girl who was not overweight... does that make him a bad person. No, it just makes him human. I think if love was staring Rk in the face and it was on the body of an overweight girl, he would look past it... but right now its easy for him to "list" his criteria because he has never been in a deep, meaningful relationship yet. Plus, men think differently, women tend to think of the emotional aspect of men, then the physical , while men think of the physical aspect of women first, then the emotional. Rk, just gain more confidence in yourself, stop playing the victim.... you already have so many testimonials of short guys that are very desirable. Having this knowledge in hand, you now cannot use your height as an excuse to stay away from potential relationships, maybe your just afraid of being hurt and your using this height thing as an emotional barrier and escapegoat??? You said you don't have an approach, find one- Get rolling.

    [This message has been edited by nadine (edited 04-22-2003).]

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 11:38 AM   #37
    Balissa
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    Does not being attracted to fat women make your brother a bad person? Probably not. But it does make me wonder what exactly it is that he is seeking in a woman.

    There are certain physical characteristics that I find attractive in a man. I'm attracted to men who are exactly my height (which is shorter than average for a man). There is something very sexy about always being at eye level with a person. I like big hands and olive skin tone. My husband is 6'3" and blonde and pale as one can be. His skin is almost translucent in the winter. My hsuband is gorgeous, I was attracted to him physically immediately. However, when I notice men when I am out and about, I don't tend to notice men that look like him unless they are pointed out to me. Most of the guys that I find attractive fit into a certain physical category, but I've never restricted myself to that. I can't even imagine how I would do so. Most of the men I've dated did not fit that specific 'look' that I find so attractive. There is a difference between finding certain physical attributes more attractive than others and seeking out only the people who have those attributes.


     
    Old 04-22-2003, 12:17 PM   #38
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    Well, I don't want to bore you with the details of what my brother looks for in a female... he is already happily married anyhow. I know it is hard for you to understand that men can be a bit superficial when it comes to wanting certain physical attributes in their partner, while women will deviate many times from their "list" when they find a man who is caring, affectionate, loving... I just think it doesn't make those men bad, I think it's just one of those intrinsic differences between men and women.

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 12:38 PM   #39
    Balissa
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    See, I don't buy that. I don't think it is a set "men vs. women" thing. I think that attitude is prevalent in our society because that is what sells self-help books and is an easy way to explain what is really a communcation gap between human beings. The differences between men and women have more to do with the way we are socialized, I think. This can still be a difficult barrier to having healthy relationships. Certainly men and women's brains work differently at a physiological level-- but the stuff we are talking about is not cross-cultural and therefore can't be explained by biology. This attitude also drives the misconception that women need a man more than a man needs a woman and therefore a woman is more likely to "settle". It isn't a matter of being "hard for me to understand". I grew up in a house full of men and am married to someone in the military-- I've been surrounded by mostly men all of my life. The overwhelming majority of men I've encountered in my life have proved this wrong over time.

    If a person wants to say, "I won't date fat people, short people, people with red hair," or whatever, that is their perogative. I just find it a little ironic that someone who would say such a thing would then wonder why no one is attracted to him, and then state that he is entitled to a an attractive woman even though he is short. I can see how someone who has these very narrow ideas about what is attractive would assume that it was a physical feature that was turning women off.

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 04:42 PM   #40
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    Balissa said exactly what I was trying to get across, except she was a bit more coherent.

    I think it is a dangerous and sad thing to eliminate someone from your "dating pool" based on any one characteristic. I am not turned on by overweight men, but I dated one for 2 years awhile back. I wasn't instantly attracted to him, but his personality was so fun and sweet that I couldn't help but fall for him. He was much more concerned by his weight then I ever was.

    I think what's hindering this individual is his own negative feelings about his height. He seems angry at women for dismissing him based on height, when really there may be another reason altogether for this. For example, he already assumes they dislike him or do not take him seriously as a dating partner because of his height. In truth, they may be dismissing him because he seems unapproachable or angry towards them because of his assumption that they will reject him based on this characteristic.

    He is wise to not want to date a girl he isn't attracted to, merely to have a girlfriend. He is also "allowed" to have standards in a woman he dates. However, narrowing your dating pool just to prove that short men can get attractive dates is not in your best interest. If you were tall and happy with your self-image, would you really be so dead set on finding someone that is physically worthy of your company?

    I appreciate how I can comment on your situation without you taking it personally. This shows a great desire to learn more about yourself and how you are perceived by others. As you have said, a message board may not be the answer to all questions, but it can provide some insight from impartial observers. My advice, if you're still reading: Stop seeing yourself as a short person. You are not the sum total of your physical characteristics, and quality women won't notice something so trivial in selecting a mate. Stop searching for someone who you feel can show the world that "a short guy can get a hot girl," and start looking for someone you can talk to and who has emotional stability and a good heart. Take it from those of us who HAVE been dating all these years....sometimes the best partners are the most unlikely of partners. You are a hard worker and are intelligent in sharing your thoughts...you have just as good a chance as the next guy.

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 07:29 PM   #41
    rk3689
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    o.k. i'm between jobs so sorry if this seems rushed.

    i am not after a "hot girl" for trophy reasons - i think the standards i mentioned are pretty liberal for someone in my position - i am just physically turned off by obese women.

    that is a matter of phyiscal attraction.

    i am not criticizing if women have this same standard as it relates to short men, i'm just asking if this is the way it really is for women - if i'm wasting my time even trying to open the door to a relationship.

    i cannot accept being second-best. i love myself too much for that. so would i have to accept always being second-best with any woman i may come across?

    someone mentioned that in personals, women tend to list "tall, dark, and handsome" in their want list, knowing they won't get that - why? no where in my posts do you see me saying "6 foot model with playboy-caliber measurements" - does this, in fact, mean that being short is a major handicap in being desirable to a woman?

    sorry for the obssessive nature of all this, and i know it seems juvenile - remember, this is sort of an awakening for me - as i said, i never cared to seek company of another, and i never considered my hight an impediment in my life (i have seen other things that way, but never height) - it may be a type of midlife crisis, but i perceive this enormous barrier that i'm powerless to do anything about (yes, most overweight girls can get in shape to some degree - sorry if that offends anyone).

    to eddiedean - i hate reality t.v., and most t.v. (more of a radio person).

    thanks again

     
    Old 04-22-2003, 08:12 PM   #42
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    Hey, RK...

    To be honest, I read the majority of the posts but got bored and couldn't wait to post my own response. So if anything I relate to you has already been suggested by another poster, I appologize.

    To begin I must say that I am only 5'1" myself, and, yes, most of the men I have dated have been relatively tall. I did, however, date a short guy for a little over a year. I love him very much, and we are still close friends. I was attracted to him the first time I met him; his height had never occured to me until I read your post.

    On the other hand there's something I want to point out: survival of the fittest. Perhaps it is an innate biological attraction of women to taller men as means for ensuring the long term survival of the species. For example, if you were out with some of your male friends (taller than you), women may initially be attracted to them on that basis. Maybe this speculation is wrong; it just seemed logical to me when I read your initial post.

    I agree with you. You have your standards as far as what type of woman you want to date, and by no means should you have to lower them. As another poster has already pointed out, initial attraction doesn't hold as much significance in terms of a relationship as does whether or not the woman is dazzled by your personality.

    As far as tips on finding a woman to start a relationship with go... I'm not sure I'm the best source, but I will try anyway.

    First, you seem intimidating to me even in your posts. When you are around women try to let your gaurd down a bit, don't carry yourself as you would at work. Try to act physically the same as you would around a child - be warm, gentle, and comforting in your motions and expressions.

    Also, you seem quite intelligent, which may intimidate women as well. If what you're saying to a woman seems to be lost on her or she seems to be afraid to make an incorrect response, change the subject so that she can lead the conversation. Let the woman talk about herself, then relate what she says to your own views or experiences. That should make her more comfortable. It is important that she feels comfortable talking to you and being around you. The more relaxed the woman becomes, the more relaxed you will be yourself. And soon you won't even be thinking about your height.

    It is important to not only be sure that your own body language is sending the right signal, but also to understand the signals women send you. For example if she's mirroring you (sitting in the same position, sipping at her drink at the same time as you), if you're sitting next to each other and her legs are crossed towards you, if she's laughing (be sure it's not a nervous laugh), if she looks you in the eye then quickly looks away smiling - these are all positive feedback. In response you could maybe try to touch her hand during conversation or brush her hair out of her face, small contact or compliment her. If the woman is not interested you should be able to tell by her efforts towards conversation, her tone, her body language - she may try to distance herself from you physically by sitting farther from you or crossing her legs away from you or placing something between you. If this is the case you may want excuse yourself and give your attention to a woman who's more interested.

    Anyway, if you already knew all this I'm sorry and I hope you didn't bother reading it then. But you did say you never had a date before, so one never knows.

    However, if I was infact of any help, and you wish a further response from me, you need only request one.


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    Old 04-23-2003, 05:40 AM   #43
    rk3689
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    shadowdragon - good post.

    i have been aware of the body language cues you mentioned, and that's my point - i've never noticed them aimed at me (i would often be a witness to them being aimed at my friends, but not me) - after a while, i gave up looking.

    i always did feel deficient in some way, but height hasn't bothered me since i was very, very young. i put height aside, and atributed it to other things - not being in shape, not being cultured, educated, successful, etc.

    so, one by one, i set out to achieve all of those things - got in shape, good paying job with many years experience, straight a's in college, #1 in the academy, etc., etc., etc.

    someone asked why i work so much - i'm stuck between a job i hate that pays the bills and one i love that doesn't - this is a digression, but i cleared over $74,000 last year - leaving the job means giving up 2/3 of that.

    did counseling as an internship - liked it, so stayed on and made a full-time job of it, and they tell me i'm one of the best they have - not trying to brag, just one more example of overachievement.

    imagine, if you will, the horror i felt when, after all these years, i decided i would try to find a companion only to be met with all the "definitely tall" stuff in the "want lists".

    all those times watching my friends (some of whom proudly treat women horribly) get those cues came flooding back.

    i wondered - is it that i will never really be desireable to others because of something i cannot change? after all the work i've done, is this what it comes to?

    or, it could be that somewhere the height issue was always lurking - pushing me to overachieve.

    who knows, like i said, this will not be settled in a message board.

    i also know of the "survival of the fittest" deal - if you only knew some of the things i've "suvived", yet i get no points for it.

    i have read some posts from men, and this surprises me, not criticizing me for "not getting laid", but saying that i'm lucky to not be involved with women - i see value in these statements - i know too well the damage bad relationships cause, and, honestly, a sexual relationship is proabably the least of what i seek (and definitely not marriage) - it just seems, for some reason, that i long for the mutual emotional connection with the opposite sex - i guess what some call, a "soul mate".

    the posts have made me feel slightly more at ease, though questions still remain which i will try to resolve - for example, what if the problem is my "approach", as i've heard so often? is it too late to affect that? how does that answer the lack of cues going all the way back to the beginning, when we were all young? again, these are things requiring deep analysis.

    i hope i didn't bore anybody or offend anybody here, and i apologize for the admittedly self-indulgent nature of all this - and if a few people got some laughs out of this, that's o.k. too. thanks for reading, responding, and caring.

     
    Old 04-23-2003, 05:50 AM   #44
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    Could it be a possible problem with ego?

    I see a lot of me, me, me here.

    Just a question.

    Something to think about.

    #1 Texan

     
    Old 04-23-2003, 06:18 AM   #45
    rk3689
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    yes - i thought this posted, but i looked back and didn't see it so here goes.

    shadowdragon - good post.

    i have been aware of the body language cues you speak of. that's part of the point, i've never noticed them directed at me. i did notice them directed at friends (some of whom proudly treat women horribly). after a while, i gave up looking.

    i always felt deficient somehow, but since i was very, very young, never attributed it to height.

    i figured it was other things - not being in shape, not being cultured, educated, successful. and so, one by one, i set out to accomplish these things.

    i did - got in shape, became a straight-a college student, good paying job, etc.

    imagine my horror when, after all these years, i decided to seek companionship only to be met with the "definitely tall" stuff in the "want lists".

    is it that, after all i've done, i will never find this acceptance because of something i can't change?
    all those years of seeing friends get those "cues" came flooding back.

    or, could it be that the height issue was always lurking somewhere, pushing me to overachieve - who knows? this won't be settled in a message board.

    someone asked why i work so much - i'm stuck in a job i hate that pays the bills, and one i love that doesn't. giving one up means sacrificing 2/3 of my livelihood. started counseling as an internship - loved it, stayed on and made it full-time - they say i'm one of their best - one more case of overachieving.

    i received responses from men, and this surprises me, not criticizing me for "not getting laid", but telling me i'm lucky to not be involved with women - i see some value to these comments, as i know too well the damage a bad relationship can cause. thus, sex is probably the least of what i'm seeking (and definitely not marriage). it just seems i've come to a point where i desire the mutual connection with the opposite sex, what some call a "soul mate".

    i do feel somewhat more at ease since reading the posts, but questions remain - if it is my "approach", is it too late to affect that? how does that answer for the years of youthful rejection?

    i will continue to search for resolution to this. i hope i haven't bored or offended anybody here, and i apologize for the admittedly self-indulgent nature of this - and if a few people got some laughs out of it, that's o.k. too. thank you for reading, responding, and caring.

     
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