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    Old 02-22-2003, 05:50 PM   #1
    saved by grace
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    Post For those who don't believe in ADD/ADHD

    Hello,

    I am following a suggestion of one you out there and opening up a new thread to see if we can get some good discussion out here on how people are feeling and handling this topic. As my last thread was deleted, I hope we can get some discussion that can be valuable to everyone.

    My thoughts and feeling are this. I don't believe this is a viable sickness. I am NOT saying there aren't situations and children out there that need help but I don't believe to the extent it is now where millions of children, starting as early as 1 1/2 -2 years of age, are being diagnosed with this kind of a disorder.

    I have an 8 year old son who can be quite a handful at times. Ever since he began school I have been poised and ready in case someone decided he had a problem. He is energetic, bright, has his definite likes and dislikes which every individual does. Sometimes his behaviour is inappropriate but it is dealt with and he is growing and learning with I hope consistant guidelines.....yes we still mess up as parents but we like all of you are doing the best we can.

    I have known many people who have chosed to medicate there children and in at least 95% of those cases, the ones again that I am personally familiar with.....they just needed to be parents and set boundaries and control their children. I think parenting is much different than when I was a child, kids are different and the world is different.

    Today we live in a fast paced world.....video games, TV, instant this and instant that.....everything is moving very fast and even TV shows are interupted by endless commercials so you have a breaks and interuptions all the time. Nothing demands long spans of attention yet we are demanding it of our young children.

    Parents both work often times.....running here and there picking up and dropping off kids....rushing home for dinner....our society accepts this kind of lifestyle and rather than dealing with our kids and taking time with them we are opting for the easy solution of give them a pill and everything will be OK.

    Doctors are too quick to prescribe meds.....teachers don't want to deal with kids who disrupt and take their time......so they say there is a problem.....and we medicate.

    Schools get paid for each child they have on meds...

    More and more adults are on things like prosac.....zoloft and heaven forbid....paxel! This stuff changes you forever.

    Doctors don't know the long-term affects of the drugs they are prescribing.....how it affects kids when they go through puberty.

    Drug companies create the drugs.....then look for an illness to supply them to.....if they don't have it they create it. Look at the adverts on the TV these days. Sell sell sell, try try try !

    Violence is a big side affect that no one is willing to look at and put on the table.....from the children and teens on medication all the way to the adults. (Columbine, Oregon etc etc)

    Anyway, I hope we can get some conversation going. I know I am not the only person that feels this way. And if I am understanding this, we can speak our opinion and I am not judging or slamming anyone. Let's just talk about it.

    Saved by Grace

    [This message has been edited by saved by grace (edited 02-22-2003).]

    [This message has been edited by saved by grace (edited 02-22-2003).]

     
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    Old 02-22-2003, 07:27 PM   #2
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    There is no question as to the lenths the mental health and counseling industry would go under the pharmecutical industries monies and that of their own to falsily data and create a problemed society for profit. The intrusion of the mental health and counseling industry into the school systems, the post operation requirements of being seen before hospital operations along with the deaths of nursing home patients put on psychotropic medication is known. So is the prisons, murders at schools and deaths on the highways as a result of psychiatric/mental health drugging. Congress is doing nothing. What we have is anti-american idology and a threat to the United States at the highest level...It's people.

     
    Old 02-22-2003, 10:48 PM   #3
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    Grace,

    You do bring up valid points. I think people don't realize the reason drugs "work"...they disable the brain, like most neurotoxins..the development of todays' psychiatric drugs seems to have roots in the 1960's when hallucienagens were "opening" minds. I saw a documentary on this quite by accident while surfing cable T.V..... the psychiatric profession did alot of LSD experiments and claimed they could use hallucienagens to develop drugs to "cure" everything from depression, smoking to heroin addiction. The interviews showed the excitement in these researchers, and despite the government banning of these LSD experiments around 1968, the psychiatric researchers were shown traveling abroad to obtain various hallucienagens to continue developing new drugs for the future. Well, the future is here.

    I found the documentary shocking. The pharmaceutical drugs of today that effect the mind don't exactly "turn people on", but they are based on brain toxic drugs. Ok, it's true, maybe a little poison is not as bad as alot, but it's still poison!

    How can we trust such a profession with such a history? They play around with drugs without really knowing long-term mental or physical effects on such large masses of people medicated these days. They know how drugs control the mind but not how many neurotransmitters of each kind we need or is really normal. They have no way of measuring. It's still, in spirit, the LSD experiment being conducted, only now with different named drugs and now they have FDA approval. Plus they don't need volunteers now; the entire public and their children are participants. And who knows what damage will be caused on the still very young, developing brains of children today? We'll find out about 20 years from now. But then it might be too late.


     
    Old 02-22-2003, 11:49 PM   #4
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    Hey Jennita,

    Thanks for your input!!! Good to see some discussion going on.

    It's time we take our children back from the "experts" who are tied to the drug companies and making money too.

    It's time to stop masking the symtoms with medication and address what the real problems are.

    I fear our future generation is at great risk....we are allowing them to become life-long psyche-patients, teaching them that a pill can solve (mask) the problem. What kind of children will these kids grow up to have!!!!

    We need to consider all the things that could be contributing to the issues children are having today. Mercury levels in the vaccines they get.....especially now when they get 3-4 + shots at a time. This is happening even though the powers that be know it is dangerous and poison to our system. And the chemicals and preservatives we eat in our foods....BHT, Aspartamine(sp), all the hormones in meat. Things the FDA allows without knowing the full impact of a lifetime of ingesting this crap into our bodies.

    We need to be less accepting and more challenging of what we are told we must do.

    I get so angry when I think and read about all the brilliant beautiful children this is all affecting....

    Let's keep talking.....

    I'm out for now,
    g

     
    Old 02-23-2003, 05:53 AM   #5
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    First I wil appologise for cuting and pasting many people don't like there messages cut down this way but eith my ADD I can't deal with long messages and remember the points needed.


    -"I am following a suggestion of one you out there and opening up a new thread to see if we can get some good discussion out here on how people are feeling and handling this topic."-

    This is always good as long as everyone respects others views I have been in converstaions like this beforfe and because I support the use of Ritalin in the corect usage I often get knocked for this.


    -"My thoughts and feeling are this. I don't believe this is a viable sickness. I am NOT saying there aren't situations and children out there that need help but I don't believe to the extent it is now where millions of children, starting as early as 1 1/2 -2 years of age, are being diagnosed with this kind of a disorder."-

    I think there are 2 issues with this I agree children that age are to young for a Dx as there general development isn't at a level to be able to destinguish between normal development and possible dificulties with ADHD

    -" Sometimes his behaviour is inappropriate but it is dealt with and he is growing and learning with I hope consistant guidelines.....yes we still mess up as parents but we like all of you are doing the best we can.-"

    The difference here and a child who has ADHD for me is that he does learn from te guidlines and has his own limiting skills. children with ADHD do this and some. Remember that the children with ADHD with out the hyperactivity will nto show signs of bad or unruly behaviour.(usually)

    -"just needed to be parents and set boundaries and control their children. I think parenting is much different than when I was a child, kids are different and the world is different."-

    If it works by setting the boundries then I would doubt it is ADHD The difference with children with ADHD if the bounderies are set and are consistant etc and the child still has the problems than it is time to look at ADHD not all ADHD children come from homes with poor parenting or no bounderies

    -"Today we live in a fast paced world.....video games, TV, instant this and instant that.....everything is moving very fast and even TV shows are interupted by endless commercials so you have a breaks and interuptions all the time. Nothing demands long spans of attention yet we are demanding it of our young children."-

    Again this is true but the child with ADHD may actually hyper focus on something that really holds his interest to the extent they block out everything else around them but the interest may only last days or just a short time span then they will be onto something new without finishing the first thing

    -"Parents both work often times.....running here and there picking up and dropping off kids....rushing home for dinner....our society accepts this kind of lifestyle and rather than dealing with our kids and taking time with them we are opting for the easy solution of give them a pill and everything will be OK."-

    Firstly if the child doesn ot have ADHD the pill won't work ADHD is a chemical imbalance that ritalin or one of the other medications helps correct. So giving a non ADHD child the "pill" won't make every thing OK

    -"Doctors are too quick to prescribe meds.....teachers don't want to deal with kids who disrupt and take their time......so they say there is a problem.....and we medicate."-

    I don't deny this may be the case in some instances but there are many children out there on medication as a last resort the partens will have spent much time and many stratergies many years in some cases and money trying to find a reason or a stratergy etc of dealing withthe issue and this is a slap in the cheeck for those with excellent parenting skills who have to resort ot medication.

    -"Schools get paid for each child they have on meds..."-
    Which country not in the UK and if they get extra mony for special needs children (and they don't have to be on meidcation) it is never enough and having a child with a special needs lable usally is a drain on rescourses as they are supposed to provide extra lessons thy have no mony for so they would probably rather noth have the label.,

    -"More and more adults are on things like prosac.....zoloft and heaven forbid....paxel! This stuff changes you forever."-

    I agree with you there the as far a anti depressive drugs go. However, I have been on ritalin for voming up on 2 years I am AD without hyperactivity and yes it has changed me but only for the good I can now concerntrate and foollow descusions I can now study and remember what I have learn't my social skills have improved dramatically (I have a IQ of 150 ) yet barly scrapped through school I was board couldn't focus and never got work done on time inspite every effort from my parents and teachers they all knew I was bright but school deadlines organisation and focus got in the way I am now re sutdying and getting A+ for most of my work. as opposed to be luckiy if I got a D+ previously

    -"Doctors don't know the long-term affects of the drugs they are prescribing.....how it affects kids when they go through puberty."-

    Ritalin has been out for over 35 years and perscrided for children even back then. They know the side effects and in children they moniter them for growth blood pressure etc (even adults) I cannot say what happens to the bad Dr's out there but there are those in every field. I also don't have the facts for the other drugs used.

    -"Drug companies create the drugs.....then look for an illness to supply them to.....if they don't have it they create it. Look at the adverts on the TV these days. Sell sell sell, try try try !"-

    I can't comment on this coming for europe drug companies aren't allowed to do this but the cost of reserch etc they often only make drugs or refin them to new ones on demand of usage and new diagnosis not the other way round Yes they will say if we do this drug for x and sell it for x we will make x amount but that is the industy as a whole not just in this field.

    -"Violence is a big side affect that no one is willing to look at and put on the table.....from the children and teens on medication all the way to the adults. (Columbine, Oregon etc etc)"-

    I think we need to break this down as to which medication and which group of adults and children yes drugs in general can do this but a child on ADHD medication for a genuinne reason will much less likly abuse other substances and if nto been on medication are more likly to abuse substances. Correctly controlled on ADHD medication the ADHD child is far less likly to be abusive.

    Thats my 2 pence woth anyway.

    spooky


     
    Old 02-23-2003, 11:32 AM   #6
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    This is all very interesting. I personally believe ADD "exists", but not as a "biological" or "mental" disease and most of it is mis-diagnoised, especially in very young children who still have alot of maturing and developing ahead...as we know, kids do not grow and mature at the same pace, some are way ahead of others. So there are always the "problem" children, and those are the ones presumed to have this ADD disorder. Generations upon generations have had "problem children"; this is nothing new. Many turned out fine; some didn't but usually external forces caused their problems. I have a few cousins who were like that; my aunt had more children than she could handle, but all turned out fine anyway except one...she got into drugs, but not for any theory of "self-medicating", but purely because she fell in love with a guy who was into drugs!

    Another interesting tidbit: Kurt Cobain of the rock group Nirvana was on Ritalin as a child. He had alot of stomach problems and ended up on heroin, which relieved his stomach pain. Stomach pain is a common side effect and also withdrawal effect of stimulants. The Ritalin he took for his ADHD did not prevent his future drug abuse and we all know his addiction is what eventually ended his life by suicide.

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 10:19 AM   #7
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    There are those, as you said, who don't think ADHD is a disorder, and are of the opinion the meds are hurting the future of the children, both physically and emotionally. If ya'll (yes, I'm a southerner) read my posts, you will see I am a supporter of medications. I want readers to know my position before I give my opinion. Here it is: I will not say what a person should do or not do in regards to ADHD. I can only offer what I have experienced in MY situation. My daughter was diagnosed at age 5 with ADHD with a complete physical and psychological evaluation. I did not understand what was going on at the time, and refused to allow her to be medicated. When she entered first grade and was having a very difficult time, my wife talked me into letting her try medication.(All the while she was trying to convince me to be evaluated, saying my daughter was just like me) The effects of the medications were noticeable from the FIRST day. Her grades and interactions with people did a 180 degree turn. She is doing very well now, and we still have her evaluated on a regular basis. Her meds were adjusted and readjusted from these evaluations, and we have found a medication type and amount that works well. After two years of seeing the changes in her, and as a result of advice from my family, I went for an evaluation from a psychiatrist(not the same doctor as my daughter, just to be fair and independant) I did not tell my psychiatrist my daughter was diagnosed at first and, as a result of my complete evaluation, was diagnosed. A script was written, and it stayed in my wallet for another month or so, because I wanted to see if the behavior techniques would work. They helped, but did not reduce the focus and concentration problems. I got the script filled, and since being on the medication, my life has changed. Now, I was and am very anti-medication. My mother took over 50 pills a day, and I thought that was crazy. I still believe those many medications will hurt more than help. Her problems were physical in nature. The ONLY REASON I AM AN ADVOCATE OF MEDICATION is because of what it does for me. It changed my life completely. My job performance is great, my supervisors have noticed, and opportunities I thought were out of the question for me are now being offered to me. My family life has improved greatly, and I am now able to participate in my chilren's activities, ie coach, sponsor, etc., whereas before I was unable to handle it. My daughter's life will be successful because of her medication. She will be able to choose one thing to do, and do that one thing well. That is my story about ADHD. Again, my opinions on this board are from my own experiences with medications, and not anything else. I have also experienced, in my family, children being given medication for ADHD and no REAL evaluation performed. THAT, I do not agree with. No one should consider putting their children or themself on a medication without a complete evaluation, in my opinion. I am a believer in ADHD diagnosis, and I am a believer in using medication for help, only because of what it has done for me and my family. I hope those of you who read this post understand that my wish for you is to do what helps you or your children. They are the most precious gift we could ever receive!

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 11:28 AM   #8
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    payin' attention,

    That is good if you life has improved, but just be cautious with these meds, ok? Always look for signs of tolerance down the line (needing higher doses or extra drugs added) or any other mental, personality, physical ailments or "changes" or diagnosis, such as bi-polar. There is some new research out there about the long-term effects of psychiatric drugs; they have tested the effects of antidepressants only so far in this, but they have discovered that excess serotonin in the brain from the theraputic effect of antidepressants, over several years(long term) can cause the serotonin system to "burn out" so to speak. They found those receptors severely damaged in rats over time that were given antidepressants. This is brand new research.... so who knows in 20 years if other drugs, like ADD drugs, will be found to cause the same burnout of certain receptors those drugs target?

    I know these drugs have been around for a long time, but the "mass use" has been fairly recent(1990's), so true statistics and long-term research on people who stay on these drugs for life is yet to be explored. If you medicate, just be careful and observant; always read latest research from both sides of the issue, and good luck to you.

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 12:46 PM   #9
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    Hi again,

    Thought I'd add to the conversation some quotes from a Ph.D on the subject of ADD/ADHD. Food for thought.


    "A research report in the Archives of General Psychiatry states, "Cocaine, which is one of the most reinforcing and addicting of the abused drugs, has pharmacological actions that are very similar to those of methylphenidate (Ritalin, Concerta), which is now the most commonly prescribed psychotropic medicine for children in the U.S."

    The long term outcome for children is another story that has often been overlooked.

    A report on a comprehensive follow-up study at Montreal Children's Hospital discovered that “at the end of five years, hyperkinetic children who received drugs (either Ritalin or Chloropromazine) did not differ significantly from children who had not received the drugs. Although it appeared that hyperactive kids treated with Ritalin were initially more manageable, the degree of improvement and emotional adjustment was essentially identical at the end of five years to that seen in a group of kids who had received no medication at all.”

    Known side effects for stimulants are weight loss, insomnia, reduced stature, ticks, "zombie" demeanor, stomach aches, moodiness and death.

    But, the research is clear that for some kids stimulants can be helpful, at least in the short term. But, no one would claim they cure ADHD. It is clear that the effect wears off when the drug wears off. It just controls the symptoms. Kids do not out grow ADHD and ADD. Stimulants merely postpone dealing with the real behavioral and attentional problems. "

    Again, my opinion is my own but when there is millions of children involved there really has got to be something we can do......

    g

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 01:08 PM   #10
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    Payin attention....

    Thanks for posting. My argument as it were is there cannot be that many children, adults, human beings in general that need to be medicated to function.

    The pharmacuetical (sp) industry is targeting adults just as much as it is children. The adds on the TV are evidence of their mission that a pill can solve whatever issue you have.

    This is what makes me so incredibly angry.

    I am just going to throw this out as an example. They now are prescribing Prosac for PMS symtoms. Well, being a woman I know how my hormones in turmoil can make me feel. So for me.....I try to be aware of how I am feeling what time of the month it is etc and be sensitve to how I am reacting and dealing with things. This is a natural thing for a woman to go through, NOT a disorder for heaven's sake.

    It is also my opinion that people would rather take a pill than make the appropriate lifestyle changes necessary to enrich their life. In today's world we have so much going on all the time. It's time to take inventory, reflect, and get back to the basics. I know that probably sounds very harsh but I know many, many adults that are on various medications....prosac, zoloft, paxil, to name some and they for the most part are burning the candle at both ends as well as in the middle!

    Anyway, thats my 4 cents for now
    g

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 02:00 PM   #11
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    I agree with you saved by grace that people don't take responsibility for their lives. One of the things I did was to make my life simple. I have found that what I thought was important doesn't amount to much in the big scheme of things. I also make my children's lives simple. They aren't involved in twenty activities at the same time. I was very surprised when I first viewed this site at the posts which were anti-meds and posts which questioned the existance of ADHD. My point is, if I don't have a headache, I don't take an aspirin. I take ritalin because of what it does for me, and not because my doctor told me to. I just worry about the people who may elect not to try medication because someone else says they don't work. If they don't help, then by all means, don't take them. I've got ADHD, the meds work, and so I understand what they can do, and therefore am supportive of my child taking the medication. If I weren't ADHD, then there is no way I would understand what my child goes through. In my opinion, and hope I am not disrespectful of anyone on this board, if you are not ADHD, you cannot possibly understand what we go through, and therefore, should not try to dissuade anyone from using medication. Believe me, if I could get the same results without using medication, I would do it. As for the long term issues of meds, if they give me the life I have now but cut short that life for ten years...then I had rather be happy and live ten years less than be miserable like I was before. There are a lot of people on meds for ADHD that don't really have it. That's why I am so adament about having a real evaluation, and continued follow-up care....for life. One of the reasons I resisted meds in the first place was because I saw a family member given ritalin (she was 8 at the time) because the family doctor agreed with the parent, and, without evaluation, prescribed it. It was a nightmare. Glad to say she is off it now..why?...Because she never had ADHD in the first place. A real evaluation would have shown she wasn't ADHD in the first place. Again, please have the "real thang", and use what helps, NOT what doesn't.!!!

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 02:07 PM   #12
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    Hey there Payin attention...

    Thanks for your response. I hear what you are saying and hope for the best for you and your family. It's the point you made about the little 8 year old on the meds when she wasn't ill at all.....that's my biggest issue right there.

    laters,
    g

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 04:25 PM   #13
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    First of all, I'd like to say that it isn't always parents that want to medicate their children. In our case, we were pressured and harassed by teachers to have our son tested and medicated. His Dad and I have never had a problem with our son. He is a typical, energetic little boy.

    As far as the existence of ADD/ADHD - I don't know what to believe anymore. I only know what my family's experience has been and it has been a nightmare. I am not very good at putting my thoughts into words, so please bear with me.

    Four years ago, my son's second grade teacher talked my husband and me into having our son tested for ADHD. We did just that and it was the biggest mistake we have ever made as parents. Since our son was "labeled" we have had nothing but problems with teachers. After much harassment, we reluctantly medicated Brad (not his real name). So, for the past three years he was on medication. The saddest thing is the dosage was never high enough to please the teachers. They always wanted us to increase his dosage. There is no satisfying them.

    Every year it has been the same old battle with teachers. . . about one to two months into the school year, we get the dreaded phone call. "Have you ever had Brad tested for ADHD?" Why do they call after one to two months? Because by that time they have had a chance to look through the children's school records and they see that dreaded label - ADHD. So, of course, they know before even calling me that he has already been tested. They just want the meds! I'm convinced that if we had lied at the very beginning of all this and told the teacher that yes, we had Brad tested and the psychologist said he is NOT ADHD that that would have been the end of it, but we did what comes naturally to us - we were honest and took him for testing and of course the psychologist "diagnosed" him after only a one hour conference. Where is the PROOF? Anyway, the teachers think that if he is ADHD that automatically means he will be on medication. They are wrong!

    This year has been no exception. His teacher wanted him medicated. We never medicate Brad on the weekends or summer holidays, so we had to go back to the doctor to get a new prescription. Brad did not tolerate the medication at all. He developed some major problems. He wouldn't eat and lost 10 lbs in one month, he wasn't sleeping at night, and he developed tics. It was awful. Thank God, his doctor saw all these side effects, first-hand, and instantly removed the medication. I took all of Brad's report cards from the past four years and all his scholastic papers, from this year, with us to our last visit with his doctor. I wanted him to see how well Brad is doing. He has always been an A Honor Roll student since kindergarten. With report cards and other scholastic papers in front of him, the doctor could see that Brad's marks were consistent both on and off medication, so he doesn't feel it necessary to medicate him anymore. Hallelujah!

    This year his teacher's ONLY complaint about Brad is that he talks too much. Our son loves to talk and, of course, the medication won't stop the talking. She wanted him medicated to the point that he would be a zombie and just sit there. At every given opportunity she asks us "Can't you please medicate him? He would be so much better off."
    Excuse me? My son talks too much and you want me to medicate him? We've (hubby & I) explained to her, on numerous occasions, that Brad doesn't tolerate the ADHD meds and therefore the doctor took him off all medication. She doesn't want to hear that, so she continually brings up the subject of meds. She only hears what she wants to hear and blocks everything else out - hey, maybe SHE is ADD! What this teacher fails to understand is that his behavior, in the classroom, didn't improve while he was taking medication. We still received the same complaints from her when Brad was being medicated.

    I know teachers are sometimes overwhelmed with 20 to 30 kids in their classrooms but they need to show some compassion. I think they forget they are dealing with children, not miniature adults. This advocacy for medication, as opposed to increased educational or disciplinary measures in an active classroom is unacceptable.

    We will continue to assist our son with homework; executing the ongoing assistance/teaching support expected of involved parents and assist him with appropriate social skills and self-discipline. We provide support, assistance, protection and control over him approximately 16 hours each day, and expect his teacher to perform likewise while he is in her custody.

    I saw the following statement somewhere and find it very appropriate - There once was a time, 20-30 years ago, when Brad's behavior and chattiness would have been chalked up to childhood. Today, he has a "diagnosis" or as I like to refer to it, a label - ADHD.




     
    Old 02-24-2003, 06:54 PM   #14
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    Man, doesn't that teacher get it? If your doctor says no meds, no ADHD, then tell her to get off your back and mind her own business. I'd tell her a few more things, but I won't mention them here or they'll delete my post for sure.

    You are right, I am sure many parents get pressured into meds. They want to be good parents in the eyes of others, but what really counts is what is in your own heart.

     
    Old 02-24-2003, 08:13 PM   #15
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    I would also offer the school and the teacher a law suit if the harrassment continues!
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