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    Old 01-01-2004, 07:16 AM   #31
    yinksy
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Yep - Michelle and everyone else - Lisa has said it all - 2004 is going to be a great year for us all!
    Happy New Year everyone
    yinksy
    XXX

     
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    Old 01-01-2004, 07:30 AM   #32
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Lisa and Yinsky,

    Thanks for the replies. I have no other choice than to taper with the sub because I flushed the hyrdo's. Lisa, the sub is a form of an opitae the binds to the receptors in your brain and tries to heal some of the damage all those pain meds have done. You do not feel "high" on it and it helps some with depression. My concern about the sub is, since it is a form of an opiate, I will experience withdrawals and it stays in your system alot longer than the hydro's, so I am unsure of what I will be facing when I run out in the next few weeks. But, it doesn't matter, this has to and will be done! Bottom line! So, ya'll bear with me the next few weeks- I'll probably be experiencing a wide range of emotions, but you in particular have motivated me so much! In discussions with my husband about the hospital versus doing this by myself things got "heated" and I was crying and I said, "I can do this...Lisa did it!" He was like, "Who is Lisa?" But, you have convinced me it can be done!

    I gotta scoot, we are headed to my grandmother's. Check in with ya'll tomorrow. Hope everyone had a safe and sober night last night and God bless each of you in 2004,
    Michelle

     
    Old 01-01-2004, 08:02 AM   #33
    Philster2003
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle;

    So fill me in on where you are with the pills. What strength are you taking? How many each day? How often or at what interval? That would be a good start.

    I'll help you all I can!

    phil

     
    Old 01-01-2004, 08:28 PM   #34
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hey Phil,

    I have about 40 eight mg tablets of subutex left and about 40 .5mg tablets of straight buprenorhpine (sp?). I took 16 mgs last night and 12 mgs today.

    I actually started the sub in late October. Started at 8mgs for the first week and then dropped to 4mgs for the next three or four weeks. I craved so bad that whole time (don't think I was on a high enough dose???) and eventually stopped the sub and went on a little hydro binge (well, I shouldn't say little- went through 300 pills in about 2 and a half weeks). In doing that, I think I really messed up because I have been a wreck since then. My husband went to talk to my addictionalogist because he was so concerned- that is when the whole issue of going to the hospital or tapering off came up. The reason I have to taper off is- my sub doctor WILL NOT keep me in the program if I continue to take my Xanax. I have anxiety BAD and feel like I need that more, in addition to an anti-depressant, Lexapro, so after running into a brick wall with another addictionalogist (he also wanted hospitalization), I concluded that I will taper with what I have left and BEAT THIS THING!

    I can taper down pretty easily to 4mgs and even take it every other day. I will just have to find some meetings or something to help me mentally. I don't acutally know how to taper with this and what I will be faced with when I am finished. Spark's situation with it has me a little concerned as he had a pretty rough time coming of the sub. What do you suggest? Thank you for your help- you are always the "go to taper guy!" (A compliment!)

    Thanks, Phil!
    Michelle

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 05:08 AM   #35
    KIMBEE
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hi Michelle, I am so sorry to hear you are having such a hard time with the Sub. I want you to know that you are in my prayers along with your family. Stay strong, you can do this, I have faith you can! Rehab wasalso hard for me, I couldnt stand to be away from my kids! Thats probably one of the reasons it didnt work well for me.

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 06:53 AM   #36
    Banker
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hi to all - how is everyone? Michelle - what's going on? How is your taper plan? You sound so much like me about being mad at the drugs. You remind me of little 'ol Scarlett. It's great! I know your moods are going to be up and down - Mine were BAD at first. Remember, one day I was LOVING the sub and the next I hated it and myself. We are all here for you and you just type away whenever you need to/and or want to. We need to here from you!!!!

    Kimbee - What was your experience w/Rehab? How did you end up on Sub? Can you tell us your story when you have time? Also, do you have children, husband, etc? Are you still hanging in there on the Sub? I am still at about 8 mgs and feel really, really good. I just have no plans to get off of it. I had my doc appt. this a.m. but my 5 year old is sick and I can't go. I only have 4 more pills yet so I HAVE to go on Tues, no matter what. That kind of stinks... that I can't just have it called in but I think this time he's probably going to give me more to last longer. I think he's glad I'm on it 'cause he knows I'll have to stay on it a long time and that makes him more $$ but I still don't care. It's still amazing and has really saved my life right now. How many mgs do you take? Let me know and take care...

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 07:21 AM   #37
    Philster2003
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle,

    I'm not sure I can help you taper with the Sub. I'm rock solid with hydro and could probably help with methadone but Sub is an area I haven't gone or read much about in regards to tapering. Methadone is such a different animal as its half life is so-o-o long that you have to go extra slow. Rule of thumb is a 5-10% taper over a 3-5 day time span.

    ======================================== ===================
    OK I just read the half life of the main component of Sub (buprenorphine) is 20-60 hrs. Very similar to methadone, which means you have to go extra slow.

    OK I found this schedule for a person tapering off 80 mg of methadone. I know itís not Sub but it has a similar half life so we can try a similar approach

    For the meth WD,

    step 1 - decrease the total daily dosage by 5mg each 3 days until down to 45mgs/day.

    Step 2 - decrease the total daily dosage by 2.5mg each 3 days until down to 20mgs/day.

    Step 3 - decrease the total daily dosage by 2.5 mg each week until done.

    This should provide a mild taper.

    If you use this logic with the Sub you are on and your taking 4mg per day, start something along these lines:

    step 1 - decrease the total daily dosage by .25mg each 3 days until down to 2 mgs/day.

    Step 2 - decrease the total daily dosage by .25mg each week until done.

    Slightly different as you canít probably get a .125 pill or cut a pill down to this size. If you use a pill cutter you should be able to get the correct dosage for this. I hope this helps but again this is a bit unfamiliar territory so itís a learn and go program Iím afraid.

    phil

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 10:44 AM   #38
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Thanks Phil- you are such a help to all of us! How long have you been clean? I am sure your "story" is on the board somewhere, but you have been here alot longer than I have. I hope you have a great, new year. God bless you and everything you do!

    Hey Banker, doing okay today. I imagine I will be okay until I have to start reducing the sub. Right now, I am just going to get "settled" for a couple of weeks. I appreciate so much your help through all this and you know I will need it even more in the near future. My hubby is home sick with the flu and is calling me- so gotta go.

    Michelle

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 11:20 AM   #39
    rockingham
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    michelle when your kids are all grown and have kids of their own and your a grandmother you will look back at this addiction and just be so proud of yourself for having won. your children are treasures. it will be difficult to hold back tears. i know you can do this thing.

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 12:44 PM   #40
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    You are so right, Roc! I know people say you have to get clean for yourself and I do agree, but to think of having to go to a hospital so far away for three or four months and not see my children....to me, that is reason enought to quit! That is how much I love them. I appreciate your kind words and hope this new year brings all that you deserve!

    Take care,
    Michelle

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 03:17 PM   #41
    Philster2003
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    OK Michelle you asked about my story so here it is again, nothing big compared to most but for me it was not so good lol
    ======================================== ====================

    It all started back about mid 1999 for me. I was a runner, ran about 4-5 marathons a year, about 50-65 miles a week, nothing special just did it for exercise and to compete with myself. Well after 20+ years of running it finally caught up with my back and I was diagnosed with herniated discís. I tried all sorts of treatments, epidural steroid injections, muscle relaxers, non opiate pain meds, etc.. Nothing helped and the pain was becoming intractable. To the point of not being able to walk well, tie my shoes, put my pants on and so on. Finally I started taking 5mg vicís and that helped. I took it as prescribed and all was well for several months. Well I noticed once that when I accidentally took 2 pills by mistake (took one, then another when I forgot I took the first one, duh) well I got this warm fuzzy feeling just consume my body. It was great, a buzz unlike I ever experienced. Then the next day no hangover. I smoked Pot when I was in college but the high from Pot was no where as good as opiates.

    Well I got to the point where my back started coming around so I stock piled the vicís, soon I had enough for many weekends of fun. I started taking them just on every other Friday night like it was the weekend martini. Then I started taking them every Friday, not a bad deal and never withdrawal. Then I went to every Friday and Saturday, still no withdrawal. Then I upíd the strength to 10mgs pills (Norco 10/325) So I got to taking 20mgs on Friday and Saturdays every weekend. Then it was 25mgs, then 30mgs Fri-Sun. Then it was 40 mgs Fri-Sun. This is when come Tues Iíd get very mild withdrawal, upset stomach, diarrhea, chills/hot flashes, nothing bad, but uncomfortable (no where near full withdrawalís) that would last until Thurs. Come Friday back at the pills. Well this finally escalated to not just weekends but every day. Once I crossed from weekends to every day I was lost. I was taking about 40 mgs every day, 20mgs in the morning and 20mgs at night. I finally got so scared I couldnít stop and the guilt was so awful that I finally went cold turkey from 40mgs per day. It was not pleasant but not too bad. The usual restless legs, chills, hot flashes, aches, crawling skin, sleep problems sour stomach and so on. But not to awful bad. The worst was day 2-4, at about day 7 or 8 I was almost normal. Well I lasted drug free for about 4 months before I fell off my house roof and crushed my foot. I was in a cast for the next 6 months and what did they prescribe for the pain, 10mgs Norco with a bunch of refills. Well I was off and running, followed almost the same scenario as before and how the use and consumption escalated. This time it took a real turn for the worse. I also messed up the back as well so I was seeing a Dr in my health plan who gave me 4-5 refills for 180 10mgs Norco at a time. I would stockpile what I didnít use then when I got to the every day use again I started consuming what I had stockpiled in addition to new refills. I was taking about 20 10mg Norcoís per day (10 in the morn and 10 at night) but I was going through more then I could get my hands on so my stockpile dwindled to very low quantities. Thatís when I had the Dr assign me to the pain management group and they put me on the duragesic patch 25mcg (time release fentanyl) I changed the patch every 48 hrs and it was the equivalent of taking around 15 pills a day so this was a great bargain and solution for my pill consumption. What this did is keep me from getting the withdrawals but no real buzz. Well I had them supplement the patch with the Norco 10mgs and I would get a prescription for 120/mo. That was great as this would give me the buzz I was looking for. This eventually worked itself up to where I was consuming more then I could get so I had them up the patch to 50mcg, then 75mcg then finally 100mcg. I was also taking about 6 10mgs Norco each day on top. I found out this was the equivalent of taking around 500mgs of Hydro per day. Well I got scared that I would never be able to get off this train and the guilt was so overwhelming. I was also terrified of withdrawal so that kept me taking all the drugs longer then I would have expected me to take. I finally started melting down and freaking out. I came very close to admitting myself into rehab detox, but I was too scared, even with the assurance of meds to assist in the detox process. In my mind coming off 40mgs per day was not fun, but coming off over 10X greater amount would be death in my mind. Iíd never be able to do cold turkey. I finally confessed to my PCP (Primary Care Physician). I did my homework on the NET and found out from various sources how to taper. I documented my process and schedule and presented it to my Dr, he was impressed and we came to agreement that we would follow the plan. The plan was aggressive in comparison to a normal taper so for the next 8 weeks as I tapered I suffered through mild withdrawal every stinking day of the 8 weeks (like having the flu every day, no let up). We agreed that if I cheated the plan I would have to stop the taper and go the rehab route. Well I stuck to plan and suffered every day. I finally got to the last week of 2002 and I was at about 20mgs per day (down from 500mgs per day) Iím the impatient type and I knew I was so close and could not taper any longer, so I talked to my Dr and did more NET searching and found all the drugs used in an inpatient detox program. I documented the types and strengths and schedule for a 5 day detox. Once again he agreed with my plan and prescribed the meds for me. On 12/31/02 I took my last pill and implemented the at home detox program I created. Well the next 5 days were not very nice but I got through it. It was nearly 3 weeks before I started to feel like my old self, and it was almost 6 weeks before I had energy and mental state back to near normal. When I hit the 8 week mark for drug free I felt really good. Every month after I feel better and better. Now Iím almost 11 months drug free and my life is wonderful and I really donít think I have ever felt better. Iím so happy itís too hard to describe. My wife of almost 28yrs is glad to have her old husband back and my two girls (20 & 17) really love the old dad being back. They knew what I went through as I kept them in the loop (up front and honest), it also scared the hell out of them and they are really drug aware and resistant to follow my path. In the scheme of things my trials are not nearly as long or difficult as others but I have taken a few paths to addiction and a few different paths to drug free, so I can honestly speak from experience. I was also 45 when this happened in my life so drug addiction in not age discriminate, we are all at risk no matter what age. I bottom line is I did not think this would happen to me.

    phil

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 05:58 PM   #42
    John 808
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Thanks Phil for sharing your story with me! Congratulations on almost a year of sobriety- that is wonderful. I wish I were in your shoes- one day I will be, I just know it! I have a hard time imagining that I will ever feel normal and even feel good being off the pills. I seem to think, the "fun" is about to be over forever. Even though the lying, the guilt, the doc-shopping, etc. is MISERY, I cannot convince myself things will be good one day. I am doing this because I want to and because of my children- I don't want them to grow up without a healthy mother. I'll take your word for it that things will be great again. Thanks again for sharing and helping- you are such an asset to this board!

    Take care,
    Michelle

     
    Old 01-02-2004, 07:47 PM   #43
    bluejulie5
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by John 3:16
    Thanks Phil for sharing your story with me! Congratulations on almost a year of sobriety- that is wonderful. I wish I were in your shoes- one day I will be, I just know it! I have a hard time imagining that I will ever feel normal and even feel good being off the pills. I seem to think, the "fun" is about to be over forever. Even though the lying, the guilt, the doc-shopping, etc. is MISERY, I cannot convince myself things will be good one day. I am doing this because I want to and because of my children- I don't want them to grow up without a healthy mother. I'll take your word for it that things will be great again. Thanks again for sharing and helping- you are such an asset to this board!

    Take care,
    Michelle
    Hang in there. You are such a special person and great mom.
    Julie
    __________________
    julie

     
    Old 01-03-2004, 05:55 AM   #44
    lisaaahubb
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Hey Michelle---How are you doing today??? I have been thinking about you, i remember being in your same shoes..knowing i had to get straight but it just seemed virtually impossible. I know it is going to be rough with your kids and hubby but you can do it, i know you can. Keep me posted, vent whatever, you have to, just make your goal and stick to it. Read Gregg's post on how much better he feels just 6 days off of pills. Michelle, you are an awesome, caring mom and person and i am praying for you to receive the strength you need to get thru this. Your children are still young enough where they won't really even realize what is going on, so don't feel guilty when you aren't feeling in tip top shape. Get lots of rest and prepare your body by eating well and taking vitamins. I will check back later....
    Love,
    LISA

     
    Old 01-03-2004, 06:19 AM   #45
    yinksy
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    Re: Feel Worse Than Ever

    Michelle - just want to add my twopence worth! I agree with that Lisa says above. Dont forget that getting off opiates (even by way of c/t) - by whatever means you choose - is neither dangerous or life threating - just very unpleasant. In the scale of things -and looking at Greg - what is 6/7 days when you view the big picture? I went c/t - could not bear the thought of slow torture! (And I was so fed up with being sick - and - I couldnt bear the thought of more weeks of sickness while I tapered - especially looking after my 4 young children! I just jumped and never ever regreted it) After the first 3/4 days - it all starts to lift and get better - its like a miracle. Whatever you choose - we all support you in your efforts - so, Michelle, just get going!!!!! The time to talk is done with....... action now?
    You have a big heart - be courageous - go for it now!
    Your kids will finally get their mum back again! Now - doesnt that thought just spur you on? This time next week - you could be drug free and getting "high" on life! Think about it! Too much time already wasted on giving opiates too much of a place in your life. Time now for real living. I wish you all the best.........
    yinksy

     
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