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    Old 04-20-2004, 11:54 AM   #31
    Jennita
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    Re: when does it end

    Howard, did you sleep well last night?

     
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    Old 04-20-2004, 02:18 PM   #32
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    <>

    Was out like a light at 9:45, would have been Valium or not, but had to take my dose. Up at 4 then slept another hour. Am exhausted now, post-work. That has been the case for many years, well before benzos. I will stay awake another 5 hours come hell or high water. The napping habit will not be easy to break but it will be. Doc told me to stop it. The fact that benzos produce inferior sleep aggravates the situation. But benzos will be beat as well, slowly but surely... Thanks for asking :-)

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 03:17 PM   #33
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    <>

    Was out like a light at 9:45, would have been Valium or not, but had to take my dose. Up at 4 then slept another hour. Am exhausted now, post-work. That has been the case for many years, well before benzos. I will stay awake another 5 hours come hell or high water. The napping habit will not be easy to break but it will be. Doc told me to stop it. The fact that benzos produce inferior sleep aggravates the situation. But benzos will be beat as well, slowly but surely... Thanks for asking :-)
    howard 678 ive read some of your posts if you dont mind my asking whats your situation why are you having sleep problems sorry if i seem nosey but just concerened kelleigh

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 05:07 PM   #34
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    Re: when does it end

    Kayleigh,

    You ask why I have sleep problems? Would be hard to be nosy. We are about helping one another and sharing experiences.

    1. I am a very hard working professional.

    2. I have a demanding boss.

    3. I am tapering off of Valium, and this drug is now useless as a sleep aid. It is a highly sedative drug but only for about a month if taken daily, unless you start upping dosings but there is no way in the world I will do this.

    However, I do sleep, but not enough, and not well enough.

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 05:25 PM   #35
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    Re: when does it end

    Jennita,

    We have cooresponded quite a bit. You strike me as being pretty anti-prescription med, but open minded. I have the same sentiments but am also shy of herbal remedies as they are unregulated and problems associated with some of these are reported also. Anyway, I am sitting on a bottle of Trazadone, short half life sedative non-SSRI AD, that on further research, is kin to the Serzone you were on. I have read a variety of sources and the reviews are mixed. Many report it is a great sleep aid for them, even long term, with no serious side effects. What do you think are the risks of giving a bedtime dose a few tries? I am not finding any tales of horror like with benzos and SSRIs. Though there is a male specific side effect that has occured in a small number of cases that does sound troubling...

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 06:37 PM   #36
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    Re: when does it end

    Howard,

    Yes, I have always tried to be open-minded but after what happened to me, I admit I am very anti-drug....or more specifically, anti-psychiatric drugs. I do understand there comes a time in extreme circumstance that maybe these drugs are helpful, but I'm talking extremely violent, disturbed, hallucienating or psychotic individuals....not the average, depressed or anxious person who might better be served with psychotherapy, nutrition, lifestyle change, cognitive behavior therapy, etc.

    I believe they have gone too far with prescribing psychoactive substances. Besides the lack of biological proof of need for these meds, also, the negative effects/diseases on the body from long-term use....you know, diabetes, heart/blood pressure problems, memory problems, eye problems, liver and kidney problems, parkinson's like disorders, tardive dyskinesia, etc. all linked to such drugs like antidepressants, benzos and neuroleptics.

    How far have they gone? I'll tell you. I just saw on T.V. that the FDA has approved a narcolepsy drug for, guess what.....shift work. Yes, shift work, to help keep people awake easier. Now, is shift work a disease/disorder in need of "medication" I ask you? When did the medical community step away from their original purpose of curing medical disease and into unnessarily prescribing of toxic substances?

    If you ask me, they've have left the world of medicine and entered the world of drug pushing.

    Next on the list is the development of extascy, the street drug, for use in depressed patients. How appropriate; the two worlds have finally openly joined as one!

    Enough of my rant.....I am glad you slept, howard, even if it wasn't great sleep...at least it's something. I know what you mean about the poor quality sleep of benzos. I slept so well last night; awoke without the anxiety rebound of those pills. You will get there, someday, too.

    I wish I could give you an answer about the Trazadone. I have also heard the mixed reviews on it. It works for awhile, then it can stop working. Or some people say it didn't work at all. Others say it worked great, at least at the time they wrote about it.

    I wouldn't consider you weak to try it with your pressures/work. Sleep is so important. The only worry would be any parodoxial reaction or if it didn't work. It's up to you, I'm not sure if it's hard to get off of. Maybe you could wait a bit longer and see if your sleep improves. If not, perhaps a short run with it might help you get through a tough time....

     
    Old 04-20-2004, 08:04 PM   #37
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    Re: when does it end

    I am with you. The psychiatrist used to place the lion`s share or all of their efforts on counseling, helping patients work through their problems. Now it is depensing meds, and unquestionably this is way over done. I once had a nurse practioner of all things prescribe me Paxil to try and pulll me off Xanax. They can do that, is not a controlled substance. The pills cost me $79 even with my co-pay. They did zilch after 10 days, plus I do not believe I have a chemical imbalance so I tossed them. $ down the drain... Plus, being depressed or anxious was for centuries an accepted part of life, and often considered a good thing as it encouraged spirituality. Bad health, early death by today`s standards, that was the norm...

    On the other hand, many of the syndromes you described have been linked to substances that have been around for milleniums, incuding alcohol, caffeine, and opiates. And anxiety, trauma, or paranoia all by themselves can cause many of these syndromes, irrespective of drugs. This is not to say that benzos do not have a tough withdrawal syndrome. Can`t speak about the SSRIs from experience.

    And it might be argued, that certain psychoactive drugs allow some that, 100 years ago would have been institutionalized, to live pretty normal lives. We have had the so called "lunatics" around since the dawn of history, though of course kinder terminology is now used. Let me confess that I do not know a whole lot about any of this. Your research is surely more extensive. But I do know that there are a few crusaders on the net that seem to have an agenda and perhaps are setting themselves up to be highly paid "expert witnesses" in future civil trials or may have other motives. With my training, this is a red flag for perhaps a lack of objectivity. And such individuals seem to be the loudest voices on the net. Ideally, I would love to watch an SSRI or benzo suit hammered out, both sides, on Court TV. This I think would provide me with the best medium for an assessment.

    I thought you may take a milder view on the Trazadone. It will be a last resort. Thanks for the input on that.

     
    Old 04-21-2004, 04:29 AM   #38
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    Kayleigh,

    You ask why I have sleep problems? Would be hard to be nosy. We are about helping one another and sharing experiences.

    1. I am a very hard working professional.

    2. I have a demanding boss.

    3. I am tapering off of Valium, and this drug is now useless as a sleep aid. It is a highly sedative drug but only for about a month if taken daily, unless you start upping dosings but there is no way in the world I will do this.

    However, I do sleep, but not enough, and not well enough.
    howard i take trazadone for sleep also you should look in to it before i started taking it i woke up every hour i even took it during methadone w/ds and slept the whole night never had insomnia during w/ds because of it jennitas right there really no side effects from it and no w/d symptoms like from effexor and paxil this stuff is great thanks for replying hope this helps kelleigh

     
    Old 04-21-2004, 12:09 PM   #39
    Jennita
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    Re: when does it end

    Howard,

    Yes, you are right, perhaps the drugs save many "lunatics" as they used to be called, and keep some out of the asylum. That is worse case scenario, however, and that's what I was talking about. Those were the only appropriate drug candidates in the past but now you can't even be upset over a job or your cat dying without the big push for Paxil.

    I haven't read as much about those things, just like you howard, but I have read a few things about some research about B-vitamins are curing some schizophrenics. There is also the old research on fish oil and depression. Margot Kidder, the actress, has publically said that a regiment of amino acid therapy from her doctor has literally cured her of the manic-depression she suffered from for many years. So, even those worse-case scenarios I think should be looked into more, don't you?

    However, I'm sure drugs are an easier, more profitable way to deal with those cases for the psychiatric/drug communities, so I'm not holding my breath on this one. I guess for now, the drugs are the only way for those extreme cases. But maybe the future holds better things for those poor people other than health compromising drugs; we will have to wait and see.

    I don't see a red flag for professionals willing to testify against drugs, I mean, aren't other professionals who are pro-drug more than willing to testify in support of them? I can't say for sure, but some doors swing in both directions, ya know?

    I've seen books written by pro-drug doctors as well as the anti-drug ones, so....

    Well, the point is, the majority of people that are on these drugs probably should not be, and it is becoming a mental/physical health hazard.

    They say mental illness is on the rise, but by what definition....someone like you, howard? I'm sure if your old doctor had his way, by now you would be classed as a mental disorder patient on medication, right?

    Now, you and I both know that ain't so....

     
    Old 04-21-2004, 02:26 PM   #40
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    This may not answer your questions directly but I just felt like posting it. Today`s technologically driven, highly materialistic world is often very stressful, even more so than the monotony of the industrial age or the physically challenging agrarian life.

    Doctor please, some more of these
    Outside the door, she took four more
    What a drag it is getting old

    Men just arenít the same today
    I hear evíry mother say
    They just donít appreciate that you get tired
    Theyíre so hard to satisfy, you can tranquilize your mind
    So go running for the shelter of a motherís little helper
    And four help you through the night, help to minimize your plight

    Doctor please, some more of these
    Outside the door, she took four more
    What a drag it is getting old

    Lifeís just much too hard today,
    I hear evíry mother say
    The pusuit of happiness just seems a bore
    And if you take more of those, you will get an overdose
    No more running for the shelter of a motherís little helper
    They just helped you on your way, through your busy dying day

    Rolling Stones


    Yes, I am all for alternatives. Mine is going to be drug freedom, slowly, surely, as safely as possible. I think the best thing we can do is educate the medical community. I give my doctors, who were GPs, the benefit of the doubt. I think they were ignorant. I hold no resentment. And I would like to see a fair fight in court over some of these drugs, with many millions at stake, only 7 of 12 jurors to convince. My flu last week. Benzos? No. Have had mild nausea today. Benzos? Probably not. Had to rush my breakfast this a.m. Boss hates tardiness. Day was particularly challenging. Neck is a tad stiff. Benzos? No. Lousy computer chair, spent a lot of time in it last night. And I`m not getting any younger. But, many would have said it was all benzos and all but promised me much more. That is why I am out of the support forums.

     
    Old 04-22-2004, 11:13 AM   #41
    Jennita
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    Re: when does it end

    Ah hah, that Mick and the gang knew the score, way before most of us!! But I think most people thought only the abusers had problems with the drugs, but we've learned differently, right howard?

    Well, benzo withdrawal did not make you get a cold; however, when one is in withdrawal/recovery, the immune system isn't up to par and you can get sick alot easier....also, aches, pains, etc. are more likely too. It's just because benzos do effect the muscles. Valium has been used as a muscle relaxant.

    In fact, when I used to be in the support group, there was a bodybuilder who hurt his back and his doctor gave him Valium for the spasms. He only took it for a few months intil the back healed, and not a very high dose. You know what, he went through the typical withdrawal symptoms for a year...anxiety, insomnia,tinnitus, etc? The man had absoulutely no history of such things...he just hurt his back. Goes to show, the stuff has potential to mess anyone up!

    Anyway, I got sick with colds/bronchitis/infections alot too in the beginning, but now I think it's been about 2 years since I have been in a doctor's office. My new doctor must wonder where I went off to!

    Well, I'm sorry you have to go through this under such stress with your job and all. Do you do anything to de-stress like mild exercise? I know it's hard to exercise amid withdrawals and work, but it doesn't have to be much, maybe only a few minutes of jumping-jacks, walking or bike. A few sets with light weights.

    I exercised even on almost no sleep; of course, I couldn't do much but I did what I could. It was very hard for me, I remember one day during only a few minutes of aerobics at home, I actually started crying while I was doing it because I was so tired out! Tears were pooring down my face from nothing but shear exhaustion (I only did a few minutes) I'm glad I was at home instead of in an aerobics class...goodness what would that have looked like?

    Oh well, now I can exercise again quite well. Anyway, it might be good for you...your'e not training for the Olympics, so any amount/type exercise will do the trick! I know from experience exercise will not take away withdrawals, but you might feel a bit better and keep your blood pressure down, since withdrawals can raise it in some people. Also, you may feel less stressed. Of course, maybe your boss sounds like he needs to de-stress too

     
    Old 04-22-2004, 01:58 PM   #42
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    I am with you. The psychiatrist used to place the lion`s share or all of their efforts on counseling, helping patients work through their problems. Now it is depensing meds, and unquestionably this is way over done. I once had a nurse practioner of all things prescribe me Paxil to try and pulll me off Xanax. They can do that, is not a controlled substance. The pills cost me $79 even with my co-pay. They did zilch after 10 days, plus I do not believe I have a chemical imbalance so I tossed them. $ down the drain... Plus, being depressed or anxious was for centuries an accepted part of life, and often considered a good thing as it encouraged spirituality. Bad health, early death by today`s standards, that was the norm...

    On the other hand, many of the syndromes you described have been linked to substances that have been around for milleniums, incuding alcohol, caffeine, and opiates. And anxiety, trauma, or paranoia all by themselves can cause many of these syndromes, irrespective of drugs. This is not to say that benzos do not have a tough withdrawal syndrome. Can`t speak about the SSRIs from experience.

    And it might be argued, that certain psychoactive drugs allow some that, 100 years ago would have been institutionalized, to live pretty normal lives. We have had the so called "lunatics" around since the dawn of history, though of course kinder terminology is now used. Let me confess that I do not know a whole lot about any of this. Your research is surely more extensive. But I do know that there are a few crusaders on the net that seem to have an agenda and perhaps are setting themselves up to be highly paid "expert witnesses" in future civil trials or may have other motives. With my training, this is a red flag for perhaps a lack of objectivity. And such individuals seem to be the loudest voices on the net. Ideally, I would love to watch an SSRI or benzo suit hammered out, both sides, on Court TV. This I think would provide me with the best medium for an assessment.

    I thought you may take a milder view on the Trazadone. It will be a last resort. Thanks for the input on that.
    HOWARD YOU HAVE AMAZING WILLPOWER AND I JUST WANTED TO COMPLIMENT YOU ON THAT IVE READ ALOT OF YOUR POSTS AND WANT TO GIVE SOME SOME MORE DESERVED CREDIT SORRY IF IT SEEMS A BIT KORNY BUT YOU REALLY SEEM LIKE A STRONG WILLED PERSON KELLEIGH

     
    Old 04-22-2004, 08:42 PM   #43
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    Re: when does it end

    Jennita,

    I am afraid I relate to Mic and the guy`s lyrics. My pills were a shelter for me. They were my "little helper." And from June to October of last year, I really did not know how many I was taking. I loved to take a Xanax bar, big dose, 2 mgs, about 6 p.m. and sleep undisturbed, wake up 12 hours later. And I drank with them too. That song makes me said while motivating me. I listen to it from time to time. And I was a drug recepticle in my late teens and early 20s. When first prescribed benzos I was under some pretty serious stress and symptoms were manifesting. I really do not relate to the pure accidental addict that was prescibed benzos for some simple muscle twitch or something then stayed at the same dose for 8 or 10 years. I developed tolerance quick. My biggest complaint is that I was not warned of the extent of the withdrawal syndromes, had I, I would never have started benzos. But I had eaten blue Valiums like candy when I was young along with whatever else happened to be available and never had any benzo specific problems that I can recall. BUT, as to know, I got the discipline to taper, and that is good. It is great hearing you are athletic. I think more exercise will do me good, have gotten slack on my walks, will kick them back up this weekend.

    Yep, makes sense, stress weakens the immune system, but I am working on stress reduction. You will see a victory here my friend, no matter the cost, and I think you will be here to rejoice with me.

     
    Old 04-22-2004, 09:08 PM   #44
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    Re: when does it end

    Kayleigh,

    Thanks. I know how serious this is. I know potholes in the road may probably be ahead. But I just cannot quit. I hate these drugs, and I will wean off of them even if it hurts like hell. And I will do it in accord with the best available research, slowly, and with the long acting benzo, Valium. I have a course of action, a well trained supportive doctor, and I do everything I can one day at a time to live a normal life. Though I am not real religious I also pray. I also think your life will come together eventually also. After a while you get more used to hurting some off and on (it comes in waves) so thus far I just feel it and keep going, taking rests when I can.

     
    Old 04-23-2004, 01:46 AM   #45
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    Question Re: when does it end

    patience, I have just stopped taking methadone hours short of 8 days..could you tell me when I can expect to sleep . No sleep and not even a yawn. Sometimes I think I fall asleep for about 45 minutes..Please tell me soon.. noreally I need honesty , just in high hopes that it will be soon..thanks in advance...and stay strong, I admire you alot, I know it was a nightmare for me..I keep thinking ..."yes!I made it through the hard part, If I can beat that, nothing in life can hold me back. Although I feel like crap I also feel like it has kinda empowered me. Maybe its silly and maybe its from lack of sleep but hope I continue to feel this way. You should be very proud of yourself. I know it was the hardest thing I have ever done. stay strong!!!

     
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