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    Old 05-08-2004, 05:31 PM   #166
    no patience
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    Re: when does it end

    hi howard i'm taking your advice and shutting down the computer for awhile i think i'm looking to much into these boards to solve all my problems so i'm taking a vacation from cyber space i'll chat with you soon hope all is well thank you and jennita for everything i'll check in in a while and hope you'll still be here thankyou friend kelleigh

     
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    Old 05-08-2004, 05:35 PM   #167
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by no patience
    howard i id'nt really want to go on these sites iwas just curious of what they were all about because windsy man asked if jennita was a nimmo-ite and i did'nt know if he meant that in abad way or what. hope your doing well and can't believe my very first post has come to all this 32 pages of stuff i know nothing about but i'm glad it's here because i'm gaining so much knowledge in something i did'nt realize could be so harmful i thought methadone was a bad one but reading all this is making me realize the klonopin has got to go did'nt want to listen at first because it is helping me through a rough time but what will help me when i'm coming off that ? i always thought people got addicted to benzos because they gave you some kind of euphoric feeling guess i was wrong when i first took a klonopin i was like ok how is this addicting but reading all these posts now i completly understand i thank you all for that and talk to you soon you must be so proud of your self getting off these and doing it with out the aid of any ssri i give you so much credit chat soon friend kelleigh

    Kelliegh,

    Seems we all are in agreement here that your best line of defense in the benzo battle is Ashton. The other sites/support groups may be helpful but you need to take them with a grain of salt as we have seen. Nimmo is Ray's last name, the owner of one site, so if one was a nimmo-ite, well, I guess that means you are some sort of unholy spawn of his....ha....a joke, don't worry. Anyway, if you type in benzo withdrawal in a search, alot of informative sites will surely pop up. Major search engines are also a source of some formed support groups specific to benzos.

    But it's Ashton that has the last word. Her work is truly a godsend.

    Don't stay away too long!

    Last edited by Jennita; 05-08-2004 at 05:36 PM.

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 05:40 PM   #168
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    Kelliegh,

    Seems we all are in agreement here that your best line of defense in the benzo battle is Ashton. The other sites/support groups may be helpful but you need to take them with a grain of salt as we have seen. Nimmo is Ray's last name, the owner of one site, so if one was a nimmo-ite, well, I guess that means you are some sort of unholy spawn of his....ha....a joke, don't worry. Anyway, if you type in benzo withdrawal in a search, alot of informative sites will surely pop up. Major search engines are also a source of some formed support groups specific to benzos.

    But it's Ashton that has the last word. Her work is truly a godsend.

    Don't stay away too long!
    thank you jennita i won't you two have been great hugs to you both kelleigh hope you're here when i get back

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 06:46 PM   #169
    howard678
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    Re: when does it end

    <> Jennita

    Agreed. Believe me I have looked near and far and this is the best scientific literature on the subject currently available, thorough, well documeted, responsibly worded, based on real detox protocols with 300 patients over 12 years. She also has excellent credentials.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-08-2004 at 06:47 PM.

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 06:53 PM   #170
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    Re: when does it end

    << can't believe my very first post has come to all this 32 pages of stuff i know nothing about but i'm glad it's here because i'm gaining so much knowledge in something i did'nt realize could be so harmful>>

    Actually two birds with one stone are being killed here. One, you have been convinced to tread softly with Klonopin. Two, it has turned into a reunion of sorts of benzo people that know one another in cyberspace from way back. :-)

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 07:15 PM   #171
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by no patience
    hi howard i'm taking your advice and shutting down the computer for awhile i think i'm looking to much into these boards to solve all my problems so i'm taking a vacation from cyber space i'll chat with you soon hope all is well thank you and jennita for everything i'll check in in a while and hope you'll still be here thankyou friend kelleigh
    Kelliegh,

    I did not mean like give up cyber support. I check my e-mail every day and come to this board. I more meant to also get some good outside support if you can. I said this before I knew you were working so you obviously are not holing up in the house. I think that may create problems with some over time. I personally have no outside face to face support other than my doctor whom is good. I`d like to go to NA but am not sure how they would react to taperers, plus the nearest meeting is 30 miles from me.

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 07:33 PM   #172
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by howard678
    Off opiates and on Klonopin... You have jumped from the frying pan into the fire. Sorry people, but I cannot believe the ignorance of these doctors. Want to really know about hell? Try kicking that stuff if you get addicted. Ask Stevie Knicks and many others.
    Howard,
    I was prescribed klonopin about 10 years ago for panic/anxiety and related disorders. At the time, I did not know how addictive it was/is. However, I've never abused it or taken more than prescribed, which is no more than 1mg at night. It doesn't worry me, and it's a low dose and has helped my life significantly. Had I known then though, about "addiction" I probably would have refused it. But I have no plans for getting off of it anytime soon. In a way though I'd like to get off, but have great trepidation. My doc despite his knowledge of other addictive behaviors thinks I should stay on it. But in the end, it's up to me and after just detoxing from suboxone, I'm not ready to do that.
    M

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 07:37 PM   #173
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Jennita
    I'll jump in here...by the way, howard, I hope you are doing better...remember, it does take the brain some time to recover from benzo use...been there, done that too!

    No patience, addiction is really a misunderstood term. Addiction is a combo of physical dependancy along with social and behavioral issues. Most addictive drugs have the ability to create euphorias at higher doses. Higher doses of benzos like klonopin usually will simply put one to sleep. Not much in the euphoria dept there.

    I commonly tell people benzos are addictive, but sometimes I need to clarify that to some people. Benzos create sometimes huge physical dependancy. Physical dependancy in itself is NOT addiction. True "addiction" is a behavior, driven by various things, but mainly a behavior.

    For example, even if one kicks the cocaine habit physically (no more withdrawals), the old way of behavior (liking or being drawn to the euphoric feelings or the people involved in the drug circles) tends to be what is hard to fight....and sometimes it leads back to the old habit again. But simply getting sick if one skips a klonopin or trys to get off is not addiction...it's physical dependancy.

    Klonopin and other benzos have high potential of dependancy and tolerance. How fast these develop is varied by dosage, type of benzo, how often it is taken, personal chemistry, etc. Also, withdrawal type symptoms can linger for months to years depending during the phase after physical withdrawal, called the recovery phase. I read that benzos are exclusive to having the longest recovery period of any drug, illegal or legal! Unfortunately, nobody takes them seriously, usually the cocaine addicts, junkies and alcoholics get all the attention! I guess it's because the effects of benzos vary and sometimes are not even recognized as a culprit because of prior conditions or simply because they are all nice-and-cozy legal drugs...

    Look up the free online Ashton Manual. It's pretty long and it goes into alot of explanation about benzos. The woman who wrote it, Professor Heather Ashton in the 1980's, ran a clinic in the UK for benzo patients.

    Occassional (not daily) and lower doses may help avoid dependancy in most (not all) cases.

    Also, no cold turkey on a benzo as sometimes seizures can result.
    Jennita,
    Good Post. I realize I am dependent upon and would go through withdrawals from use of klonopin for a long time, but I've never crossed that line with the benzos, otherwise, my doc would have taken me off of them along time ago.
    Murphy

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 08:14 PM   #174
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    Re: when does it end

    I believe they have their place in the treatment of anxiety and sleep problems. I was rxd Valium during my divorce as my soon to be EX husband threatened to kill me our son and himself. I really don't know where I would have ended up were it not for "mothers little helpers"

    And as far as the trazadone I also took it for sleep worked wonderfully told my GI Dr he could never take me off and was serious at the time but after awhile I chose to stop. No w/d problems

    But not everyone responds the same you just have to try and see how it works........................

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 09:14 PM   #175
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by marich101
    I believe they have their place in the treatment of anxiety and sleep problems. I was rxd Valium during my divorce as my soon to be EX husband threatened to kill me our son and himself. I really don't know where I would have ended up were it not for "mothers little helpers"

    And as far as the trazadone I also took it for sleep worked wonderfully told my GI Dr he could never take me off and was serious at the time but after awhile I chose to stop. No w/d problems

    But not everyone responds the same you just have to try and see how it works........................
    The only problem I have with that is that with benzos often once you find out "how it works" it is too late... For example, Xanax worked great for me for about 16 months, never gave them a second thought. Then it stopped working and I needed more. Sure sign off addiction. If this had not happened I would never be on these boards, would still be going along contented and sedated with my new miracle drug. Testimonies like mine abound, cases are widespread and documented, and due to the character and longevity of withdrawals from these drugs I will always recommend seeking other options for combating even severe anxiety. About the only time I would recommend a benzo is if someone literally is about to commit suicide, but only as a buffer until they can get some less dangerous help.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-08-2004 at 09:16 PM.

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 09:25 PM   #176
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    Re: when does it end

    < I was prescribed klonopin about 10 years ago for panic/anxiety and related disorders. At the time, I did not know how addictive it was/is. However, I've never abused it or taken more than prescribed, which is no more than 1mg at night. It doesn't worry me, and it's a low dose and has helped my life significantly. Had I known then though, about "addiction" I probably would have refused it. But I have no plans for getting off of it anytime soon. In a way though I'd like to get off, but have great trepidation. My doc despite his knowledge of other addictive behaviors thinks I should stay on it. But in the end, it's up to me and after just detoxing from suboxone, I'm not ready to do that.>> Murphy

    1 mg of Klonopin is not a low dose. That is equal to 20 mgs of Valium, 1 mg of Xanax. I was stable on that very dose of Klonopin trying to taper and came off. Was back on in 3 weeks. You do not want to know what my body did while I was off. Have heard testimonies like yours, many years of use, no need to increase dose. What would happen if you tried to stop? Only one way to find out... I would recommend a switch to Valium and slow taper if you some day make that decision.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-08-2004 at 10:11 PM.

     
    Old 05-08-2004, 09:59 PM   #177
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    Re: when does it end

    < Murphy>>

    I have heard that before. "I am not prescribing any more." Thought he was being a good doctor I suppose. The ignorance out there is very sad and frightening. It was his "prescribing" (Xanax) that set the problem up. Once informed of this in writing he changed his tune. But not hitting tolerance (needing to increase doses) does not make one immune to a withdrawal syndrome. Are many that stayed at the same dose for many years and serious long term withdrawals followed discontinuation.

    Withdrawal syndromes are not a guarantee. Some have none. Some get off easy. My contention though is that in about every case the risk versus reward ratio makes benzos a very bad option. These are highly addictive drugs. Any good and/or informed doc will tell you, but it is funny that the pharmacists often know more about these drugs than the docs. Have gotten the scoop from several of them. All recommended tapering off slowly.

    Last edited by howard678; 05-08-2004 at 10:07 PM.

     
    Old 05-09-2004, 06:17 AM   #178
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    Re: when does it end

    howard could'nt stay away i researched klonopin all last night i can't believe some of the stuff i read first there was a girl in 1999 stopped klonopin i think she tapered and now in the year 2004 is still suffering w/d symptoms needless to say her drs are being sued(not surprising). then i read an article by a dr named cheney who says klonopin is absolutely not addictive maybe a little bit habitual i forget what treatment he used it for but he should choose his words more carefully. also i could'nt beleive this my bosses grandson (this is not research) is 18 months old and they have him on klonopin for seizures do you know of any other less addictive med they can put him on i know klonopin is very addictive just from your experience and it's upsetting me to see a baby on klonopin there has to be something else. another horrific thing is before klonopin they had him on phenobarbital. what the h--l is this world coming to when they put literally a baby on benzos or barbituates if you can offer me any help i'd love it thanks howard your awesome kelleigh

     
    Old 05-09-2004, 06:28 AM   #179
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    Re: when does it end

    Murphy,
    Howard gives you good advice.
    The work addiction doesnt really describe the position as Jennita says - technically it is iatrogenic addiction. Its a dependency caused by use - and very short use too. The British National Formulary and Prof Ashton say that all benzos - and that includes the very very potent ones like xanax and klonopin so popular in the US - recommed using for a maximum of between 2 - 4 weeks. And NOT suitable for use for anxiety or bereavement! In fact they even lose their efficay in a matter of a short time - a month or so. The pharmas know damn well and the doctors are either stupid or just getting rich (xanax makes literally billions of dollars for its makers and prescribers). These mind alterning drugs were produced for anaesthesia - a one off - how in hell's name can drugs like this be safe for anyone not undergoing surgery?
    If you have been using for more than a few months (and bear in mind there is no abuse involved here - just being taken as prescribed by your doctor) - you are almost certainly well and truly hooked. If you doubt this - just stop taking the K - it has a long half life and you will notce nothing for about 2 days and then see if anything happens? If you can stop - then good for you. If you have withdrawals then you must use a slow taper method for getting off - as in the Ashton Manual (free now online).
    Murphy - if I were you I would ask your doctor what is protocol will be for withdrawing you from the drug - if he doesnt give you reasonable answers - then change doctors. This is serious stuff - dont be fooled by ignorant doctors. There are many of them out there. And your withdrawal will be months - if you are on 1 mg K that is equivalent to 20 mg valium - a pretty large dose.
    Take care - get as much info as you can - there is loads on the net. You need to do something if you have been on for a matter of some months or years because there drugs actually strart to produce the very symptoms for which they were prescribed.
    And one of the most common side effects of benzos is anxiety. So you are perhaps taking the drug which in fact is causing you the problems. If you want I will bump up an old thread that tells you about side effects of taking the drugs.
    Do you know now that in the UK its a real hot topic. All doctors are calling in their long term benzo users with a view to planning their withdrawals. Our own Prof Ashton is in touch with our Health Minister for change in regulations for GPs to assist patients from getting off benzos.
    Information is power.
    Its all in your own hands - especially if you are in the US.
    Good luck
    Mise

     
    Old 05-09-2004, 06:40 AM   #180
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    Re: when does it end

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mise ata ann
    Murphy,
    Howard gives you good advice.
    The work addiction doesnt really describe the position as Jennita says - technically it is iatrogenic addiction. Its a dependency caused by use - and very short use too. The British National Formulary and Prof Ashton say that all benzos - and that includes the very very potent ones like xanax and klonopin so popular in the US - recommed using for a maximum of between 2 - 4 weeks. And NOT suitable for use for anxiety or bereavement! In fact they even lose their efficay in a matter of a short time - a month or so. The pharmas know damn well and the doctors are either stupid or just getting rich (xanax makes literally billions of dollars for its makers and prescribers). These mind alterning drugs were produced for anaesthesia - a one off - how in hell's name can drugs like this be safe for anyone not undergoing surgery?
    If you have been using for more than a few months (and bear in mind there is no abuse involved here - just being taken as prescribed by your doctor) - you are almost certainly well and truly hooked. If you doubt this - just stop taking the K - it has a long half life and you will notce nothing for about 2 days and then see if anything happens? If you can stop - then good for you. If you have withdrawals then you must use a slow taper method for getting off - as in the Ashton Manual (free now online).
    Murphy - if I were you I would ask your doctor what is protocol will be for withdrawing you from the drug - if he doesnt give you reasonable answers - then change doctors. This is serious stuff - dont be fooled by ignorant doctors. There are many of them out there. And your withdrawal will be months - if you are on 1 mg K that is equivalent to 20 mg valium - a pretty large dose.
    Take care - get as much info as you can - there is loads on the net. You need to do something if you have been on for a matter of some months or years because there drugs actually strart to produce the very symptoms for which they were prescribed.
    And one of the most common side effects of benzos is anxiety. So you are perhaps taking the drug which in fact is causing you the problems. If you want I will bump up an old thread that tells you about side effects of taking the drugs.
    Do you know now that in the UK its a real hot topic. All doctors are calling in their long term benzo users with a view to planning their withdrawals. Our own Prof Ashton is in touch with our Health Minister for change in regulations for GPs to assist patients from getting off benzos.
    Information is power.
    Its all in your own hands - especially if you are in the US.
    Good luck
    Mise
    we haven't formally met but my name is kelleigh i've read your posts and lets just say i like em .i'm on klonopin to and howard informed me back on page 3to flush it which i was'nt to thrilled about at the time but now i read every word all of you right. i've been on it 5 weeks i know it's not long but i'm doing my own little taper because all of your stories horrify me . i started this post when i first joined the boards and i'm so happy that all of this is being written because it's opened my eyes to yet another sh-tty drug thanks mise all of you have informed me .well nice meeting you kelleigh

    Last edited by no patience; 05-09-2004 at 06:42 AM.

     
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