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    Old 01-13-2015, 07:54 PM   #1
    ManzanitaMama
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    Sinus surgery gone bad?

    It all started four years ago when I started having a lot of congestion in my right maxillary sinus. After ruling out major issues, an ENT gave me endoscopic surgery to widen the opening of that sinus. Unfortunately, it only got worse afterwards. Instead of just the congestion, I started having constant, thick mucous drainage from that side that went down my throat during the day and pooled from one side to the other when I slept, depending on which side I was sleeping on.

    It turned out I had a dental issue that didn't show on an x-ray causing the initial congestion. All the dental issues have been resolved but the drainage remains. I've been to four different ENTs. They can see the drainage but none of them know why this is happening. I've had CAT scans, etc. but nothing shows up unusual except a mild thickening of the sinus.

    Four years later and I'm having a domino effect from this. It's causing chronic sinus infections and triggers migraine headaches. I've been diagnosed with gastritis which has triggered GERD and I've been fighting that for almost a year but it won't go away no matter what I've tried (and I've tried everything!) My gastroenterologist is now thinking the constant drainage, which I can't help but swallow most of the time, is at the root of my gastro problems. Finally, this is causing me chronic bronchitis because it gets down into my lungs. I am constantly clearing my throat and coughing and it's getting worse as time goes on. I get short of breath more and more often these days and I don't even smoke.

    Although the ENTs see the problem, none seem to have a clue about what to do and don't seem to want to delve into it much. They prescribe steroid sprays or allergy meds then seem to throw up their hands when they don't work. It's like they've given up on me. None of them have put forth a reason for this happening. I'm wondering if they're worried they'll get involved in a lawsuit or something but I don't want to sue anyone. I just want help!

    Has anyone had sinus surgery that didn't turn out well? I can't find anything on the internet saying that these symptoms are a risk of sinus surgery. I also wondered if anyone has had similar symptoms, only on one side like this or if anyone has anything I can try that might help. I use a neti pot which helps keep the infections at bay and Mucinex but these things only help a little. I'm desperate for any advice or insight, or suggestions on how to find a really good sinus doctor or clinic. For example would something like a Mayo Clinic accept a case like mine?

    Last edited by ManzanitaMama; 01-13-2015 at 07:58 PM.

     
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    Old 02-26-2015, 09:26 AM   #2
    Teagan4
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ManzanitaMama View Post
    It all started four years ago when I started having a lot of congestion in my right maxillary sinus. After ruling out major issues, an ENT gave me endoscopic surgery to widen the opening of that sinus. Unfortunately, it only got worse afterwards. Instead of just the congestion, I started having constant, thick mucous drainage from that side that went down my throat during the day and pooled from one side to the other when I slept, depending on which side I was sleeping on.

    It turned out I had a dental issue that didn't show on an x-ray causing the initial congestion. All the dental issues have been resolved but the drainage remains. I've been to four different ENTs. They can see the drainage but none of them know why this is happening. I've had CAT scans, etc. but nothing shows up unusual except a mild thickening of the sinus.

    Four years later and I'm having a domino effect from this. It's causing chronic sinus infections and triggers migraine headaches. I've been diagnosed with gastritis which has triggered GERD and I've been fighting that for almost a year but it won't go away no matter what I've tried (and I've tried everything!) My gastroenterologist is now thinking the constant drainage, which I can't help but swallow most of the time, is at the root of my gastro problems. Finally, this is causing me chronic bronchitis because it gets down into my lungs. I am constantly clearing my throat and coughing and it's getting worse as time goes on. I get short of breath more and more often these days and I don't even smoke.

    Although the ENTs see the problem, none seem to have a clue about what to do and don't seem to want to delve into it much. They prescribe steroid sprays or allergy meds then seem to throw up their hands when they don't work. It's like they've given up on me. None of them have put forth a reason for this happening. I'm wondering if they're worried they'll get involved in a lawsuit or something but I don't want to sue anyone. I just want help!

    Has anyone had sinus surgery that didn't turn out well? I can't find anything on the internet saying that these symptoms are a risk of sinus surgery. I also wondered if anyone has had similar symptoms, only on one side like this or if anyone has anything I can try that might help. I use a neti pot which helps keep the infections at bay and Mucinex but these things only help a little. I'm desperate for any advice or insight, or suggestions on how to find a really good sinus doctor or clinic. For example would something like a Mayo Clinic accept a case like mine?
    I have heard that the PND can happen due to damaged cilia. I also have heard that sinus surgery can cause this - causing mucous recirculation ( I don't understand it really). Is your nose dry? You shouldn't be having PND that is thick and noticeable. If it correlates with the sinus surgery, then it is likely the cause, but as to what as a result of the sinus surgery caused it, you need to investigate. Do you think that maybe some Drs don't want to get involved because you might have a problem from surgery? I found that to be the case. Since you are in CA, I would recommend a Dr at Stanford. I don't know if I can give his name publically, but he is also a researcher working on regerative medicine regarding this nasal lining (epithelium). He may be able help you with this issue. I have never been to see him, but have heard good things. Mayo clinic may be good too.

     
    Old 02-26-2015, 05:32 PM   #3
    ManzanitaMama
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Thanks for responding, Teagan4, I have actually heard of this idea of mucous recirculation because of damaged cilia. It was one of the ENTs I went to, one with a very good reputation, actually, who suggested this. He said the mucous secretions travel up to the opening of the sinus, encounter the unresponsive cilia and pile up like a logjam there until it becomes so heavy it slides back down into the sinus, to be pushed back up again and again. It becomes dried out and thick from this and when some of it finally makes over the opening, it's thick and icky. At least that's how I understood it.

    It made sense to me but I had already seen a handful of doctors, every one with a different idea of what might be wrong. (But all pushing the same nose spray, it seemed.) I was getting pretty jaded by then and not very confident in any of them but maybe he was actually onto something. Your post is the first time I've actually read or heard anyone else mention this.

    If it were only the drainage, I might learn to live with it, but the GERD and gastritis can lead to dangerous issues if not controlled so I need to keep trying to find an answer. There's a Mayo Clinic in Phoenix, which is a few hours closer to me than Stanford. I may just make an appt. if my latest tests (manometry, 24hr pH, sinus CT scan) don't shed any new light on things. Thanks for the suggestion.

     
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    Old 03-03-2015, 03:06 PM   #4
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    It's sad to hear that you had surgery and there is no improvement.

    From my research on Empty Nose Syndrome, turbinates cannot grow back. They are bony structures! Common sense not confusing and contradictory medical jargon.
    The turbinates however, very importantly, can swell up again which happened to me after 2 turbinate reductions. All I had was chronic rhinitis (an infection) but the ENT guys butchered me twice!

    ENT guys do not do swab tests because it doesn't make them money. They have to do surgery no matter your problem to keep their average profit per patient up. They spent about a decade learning to do surgery after all and they need a return.

    Go to your GP and ask for a swab test. If they will not do it, ask for a referral to an allergists. If they do not listen, change GP! Remember, most nasal problems are due to infection or allergies, neither of which demand surgery on such a critical and sensitive body part as the inside of the nose.

    Please let us know how you go.

     
    Old 03-04-2015, 08:24 PM   #5
    ManzanitaMama
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Well, in my case, I'm pretty sure it isn't allergies. I've been tested for common allergens and none were found, and also, the problem I'm having is only on one side, the side that had the surgery. The other side is fine, perfectly normal. It did all start with an infection, though....in a tooth. But the xray didn't show the tooth problem so no one knew why I was congested on that side. The ENT thought widening the sinus opening would help but it only made things much worse.

    I have a couple more appointments with my ENT and gastroenterologist to go over my latest test results, so I'll have to see what's next.

    Sorry to hear you had bad sinus surgeries, too. I hope you can find some relief.

     
    Old 03-05-2015, 08:19 PM   #6
    Teagan4
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    I had a recent conversation with my ENT who has not yet diagnosed me, but notes I am very dry and may be atrophic following sinus surgery. I have a still deviated septum (although it was supposed to be fixed) and valve collapse.

    * This is a new ENT who is not sure why my nose is dry/atrophic

    He pointed out that I have a large maxillary antrostomy and other very widened openings following surgery. I have read that esp the antrostomy can affect people negatively by causing too much ventilation if the opening was made too wide. This would in turn cause some drying of mucus and maybe affect the PND. Maybe the antrostomy (and other sinus interventions) have other effects, but I don't know enough yet. I would ask about what was done in your surgery beyond a possible reciculation that may be causing problems. I will let you know if I get any answers on the PND, thick mucus issue for myself.

    ENTsinuspatient mentioned turbinates. Did you have them wokred on in your sinus surgery?

    Last edited by Teagan4; 03-06-2015 at 08:19 PM. Reason: correcting medical point

     
    Old 03-08-2015, 06:02 PM   #7
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Very interesting reading. I'd like to comment on a few points.
    Some comments might not help, some might.

    1. Turbinate reductions
    Yes, I had 2 turbinate reductions. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I was so sick sleeping zero to 4 hours per night I couldn't do proper research and that's when the ENT surgeons strike.

    2. Allergist
    OK, maybe you don't have allergies. I didn't, never had, and nobody in my family ever had them. But the allergist saved my life. Where ENT surgeons claim to be holistic (looking after their bank balances, minimising their risk, not your risk of side effects), allergists often actually are holistic. They will do cheap swab tests, skin tests, discuss diet, review scans, prescribe a proper antibiotics plan.

    3. Antibiotics
    Remember that penicillin was invented over 80 years ago. Antibiotics are still the best way to treat an infection. Sinus infections (chronic rhinitis) cause swelling in the nose including turbinates, which are extremely vital for humidifying air, contracting and expanding with blood flow, regulating airflow so the nervous system can recognise the normal breathing cycle etc.

    4. Infections
    There are two ways to get rid of swelling caused by sinus infections. Cut out the swelling, or use antibiotics. Which would you rather? Which does the ENT surgeon prefer?

    5. GERD
    I have this. Had it before my sinus infection and surgeries. It has been made worse I think because of the way we breathe more through the mouth than the nose. I'm on the waiting list to see an gastroenterologist.
    As a side note, mouth breathing can cause many serious issues like jaw and face deformation, especially in kids, so it's critical to sort this out.

    6. Nasal sprays
    Steroid sprays seems to become useless after turbinate reductions. They are extremely expensive and the ENT guys love to peddle them and get their kickbacks. One little bottle costs as much as an entire antibiotics plan, for example. The ENT guys act all confused when you say they aren't working. They say "that's not possible". Don't worry, we are not crazy It's just the ENT way.

    7. Revision surgeries
    Have you noticed how all ENT surgeon websites mention revision surgery?
    When have you ever seen surgeons peddling revision surgeries?
    That's a clue to me. Something is wrong here.
    Also, do any of them mention antibiotics. Maybe a mention, that's all, on US doctor sites. No Australian ENT website mentions antibiotics.

     
    Old 03-08-2015, 06:24 PM   #8
    sinuspatient
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Teagan4 View Post
    I had a recent conversation with my ENT who has not yet diagnosed me, but notes I am very dry and may be atrophic following sinus surgery. I have a still deviated septum (although it was supposed to be fixed) and valve collapse.

    * This is a new ENT who is not sure why my nose is dry/atrophic

    He pointed out that I have a large maxillary antrostomy and other very widened openings following surgery. I have read that esp the antrostomy can affect people negatively by causing too much ventilation if the opening was made too wide. This would in turn cause some drying of mucus and maybe affect the PND. Maybe the antrostomy (and other sinus interventions) have other effects, but I don't know enough yet. I would ask about what was done in your surgery beyond a possible reciculation that may be causing problems. I will let you know if I get any answers on the PND, thick mucus issue for myself.

    ENTsinuspatient mentioned turbinates. Did you have them wokred on in your sinus surgery?


    Yes, 2 turbinate reductions, with a septoplasty with the first surgery. 2 different surgeons. The first surgeon blamed it on me and the way I was breathing. He was so busy with his own interests that he missed the total opacification on the scan from the infection, or didn't care about it because it doesn't make money. If you see this on your scan, talk about it to every doctor you can until it is explained properly or post it here.

    Septoplasty is a trivial thing in my opinion. The ENT surgeons themselves say everyone has a slightly deviated septum. Plus, if its deviated, its been like that your entire adult life except in the case of trauma. I believe it may be help, but I don't believe its a cure for anything, at least not in my case. Like turbinate reduction, septoplasty is an easy go-to treatment for nave first-time patients that will bump up the dollar value on the invoices.

    The second surgery is the worst thing I have ever done in my life. After the first, surgeons said "your airways are wide, you're fine". As if 100% of my well being is tied my airways being wide Simple minds or something to do with the ENT training passed down every year.

    The airways might be wide, but there may be other problems. I have since been diagnosed with nasal valve collapse. The surgeons says its my narrow features and genetics. That kick in after 25 years and coincidentally after 2 surgeries, if you believe that

    I am now on the public waiting list because I don't trust the private ENT doctors in Australia and they get upset when I mention going overseas and mention iatrogenic (caused by surgeons) disorder Empty Nose Syndrome. They deny its existence. I'm currently working on going overseas for nasal valve repair and Empty Nose Syndrome.

     
    Old 04-16-2015, 05:55 AM   #9
    Roxane1
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sinuspatient View Post
    Yes, 2 turbinate reductions, with a septoplasty with the first surgery. 2 different surgeons. The first surgeon blamed it on me and the way I was breathing. He was so busy with his own interests that he missed the total opacification on the scan from the infection, or didn't care about it because it doesn't make money. If you see this on your scan, talk about it to every doctor you can until it is explained properly or post it here.

    Septoplasty is a trivial thing in my opinion. The ENT surgeons themselves say everyone has a slightly deviated septum. Plus, if its deviated, its been like that your entire adult life except in the case of trauma. I believe it may be help, but I don't believe its a cure for anything, at least not in my case. Like turbinate reduction, septoplasty is an easy go-to treatment for nave first-time patients that will bump up the dollar value on the invoices.

    The second surgery is the worst thing I have ever done in my life. After the first, surgeons said "your airways are wide, you're fine". As if 100% of my well being is tied my airways being wide Simple minds or something to do with the ENT training passed down every year.

    The airways might be wide, but there may be other problems. I have since been diagnosed with nasal valve collapse. The surgeons says its my narrow features and genetics. That kick in after 25 years and coincidentally after 2 surgeries, if you believe that

    I am now on the public waiting list because I don't trust the private ENT doctors in Australia and they get upset when I mention going overseas and mention iatrogenic (caused by surgeons) disorder Empty Nose Syndrome. They deny its existence. I'm currently working on going overseas for nasal valve repair and Empty Nose Syndrome.
    OMG! So you've experience these aussie buthers too!
    I've had a middle turbinate reduction, and just like you I went along with it, because I was soooo sick. It costed me $4000. Where was yours done? Mine in Cairns.
    The surgery for me didn't do a thing, except shortening my pocket, but at least it didn't get worse. I was thinking at the time to make a complaint , but I dropped it, thinking that with time it might get better. I'm still wondering what was that point of that surgery.
    He even told me that I had a cyst in my nose, but nobody who I showed the CT could notice any cyst.
    You're absolutely right, ENTs they go after the profit, and do a surgery even if it's unnecessary or they know that it would not help. Lucky if it doesn't get worse.
    I don;t think I will go under the knife again, I don;t trust ENTs especially here.
    Where u from?

     
    Old 04-29-2015, 05:25 AM   #10
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sinuspatient View Post
    Very interesting reading. I'd like to comment on a few points.
    Some comments might not help, some might.

    1. Turbinate reductions
    Yes, I had 2 turbinate reductions. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I was so sick sleeping zero to 4 hours per night I couldn't do proper research and that's when the ENT surgeons strike.
    .
    Yes, that's exactly right. When you're so desperate and sick you just can't dig and research what to do. Instead you put all your trust in your chosen ENT. And why wouldn't you trust him / her, they the experts.

    I was fooled too, exactly like you. No sleep, very sick, and very desperate.
    That ENT is even lied to me about a cyst in my nose being the cause of the congestion. He could have showed me anything on the CT, he new very well, that I would believe anything.
    When I hesitated to go through the surgery I remember him asking me pretty arrogantly: "do you want to fix your nose or not?" Obvious answer yes. $4000 surgery, + meds. One more fishy thing about this, I requested the surgery detailed report from the hospital. It showed that the whole surgery including the anesthetic lasted 20 min! So that means 10 min for both sinuses. When I questioned this guy, he said that it's just a short surgery. However other doctors I talked to they said it's pretty impossible to do anything in that short time.
    My point is, that most ENTs don't want to cure you but they are after your money, nothing else. Shame on all of these unethical doctors!

    I'm lucky that mine didn't get worse after surgery. But I would think not 2x but 100x b4 I undergo another sinus surgery!

    Last edited by care4; 04-29-2015 at 05:27 AM.

     
    Old 07-26-2015, 06:06 PM   #11
    ariel123
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    you are spot on!
    Are you still on the waiting list?
    I got finally my appointment in the public, my GP pushed it so they upgraded me to categ. 2.
    However I was quite disappointed, it was a young lady who saw me in the hospital. She looked in my nose with a little camera and came to the conclusion that I my inferior turbinates are too big and I probably would benefit from a surgery. Mind you I had a middle turbinate reduction done privately couple of years ago which did not help at all!
    She said that the other option is to try a different costeroid spray.

    Have you heard about radio-wave therapy for inferior turbinates? It's a non invasive treatment to reduce the turbinates, You can read about it in med journals, (US) The lady in the hospital had not much idea about it, and told me I had a 3rd option, to research it myself!

    So having not much faith in the private I totally agree, but the public seems not much better, except it's free! But if it helps?? who knows.

    So how you going now?

     
    Old 08-13-2015, 01:24 PM   #12
    Teagan4
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    Re: Sinus surgery gone bad?

    I had a turbinate reduction and now have empty nose syndrome.

    Radiofrequency is not considered necessartily safe - so you risk this outcome. Empty nose syndrome occurs when the nasal physiology is damaged or destroyed following a turbinate reduction. No one knows how much turbinate can be taken or destroyed.

    Or what is you end up with a dry nose that is not as severe as ENS? That is not good either and that is fairly common.

    Any turbinate surgery aims to removed and or destroy tissue. This is how they "shrink" it.

    I suggest you really research and think about this, especially since you have had a procedure on your middle turbinates.

    The American Rhinologic Association has a section on Empty Nose Syndrome. There is a lot of info on the web about the dangers of these procedures - including a Forum, ******** pages and a website.

     
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