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    Old 03-03-2004, 07:27 PM   #1
    GracesMomMom
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    Bug Eyes

    Hi all,
    I'm so wierd. "Normal" bloodwork (including ft3 and ft4). Hypo & Hyper symptoms. I keep coming back to the one thing that I can't find another explanation for. I'm going to ask the Dr. about this tomorrow, but I was curious if anyone had any ideas. My eyes bulge when I go hyper. This is a Graves symptom. Is there anything else that would cause this? Graves is characterized by hyper symptoms. How is it that I had primarily hypo symptoms prior to pregnancy and now I have a little bit of everything? My body temps dropped after pregnancy (2 years ago last month), and now I cycle up to a hyper state and my body temps would be near normal. Anyone have any ideas? I can't remember if I've asked these questions before, sorry if I have... brain fog, loss of memory, etc.

    Shannon

     
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    Old 03-04-2004, 06:55 AM   #2
    mintchocolate
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    That is a good way to put it "bug eyes", LOL. I used to call it "that weird thing the eyes do when you are hyper", or fixed gaze.

    Anyway, I had it when I started Armour, it came and went for about two months while my body was getting used to Armour. My guess is that your body is still changing hormone levels after pregnancy, hopefully it will stabilize and allow you to find the right dose of thyroid med. I am not an expert, but it is just a thought.

    Mintchoc

     
    Old 03-04-2004, 10:48 AM   #3
    GracesMomMom
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mintchocolate
    That is a good way to put it "bug eyes", LOL. I used to call it "that weird thing the eyes do when you are hyper", or fixed gaze.

    Anyway, I had it when I started Armour, it came and went for about two months while my body was getting used to Armour. My guess is that your body is still changing hormone levels after pregnancy, hopefully it will stabilize and allow you to find the right dose of thyroid med. I am not an expert, but it is just a thought.

    Mintchoc
    So what was your diagnosis? I'm pretty sure pregnancy hormones are still involved for me, and I think there's still mass confusion because I was probably hypo prior to pregnancy, now things just don't know what to do. I just want to make sure that the treatment we decide on is for the right thing and it's almost impossible to decide what exactly the problem is - except of course that I'm miserable. I'm so glad you're feeling better! Yea for you! Thanks for the response.

     
    Old 03-04-2004, 10:50 AM   #4
    GracesMomMom
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    I hadn't thought in advance... if I've insulted anyone with my "Bug Eyes" topic, I'm terribly sorry. That's what my younger brother fondly calls them...

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 08:56 AM   #5
    mintchocolate
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GracesMomMom
    I hadn't thought in advance... if I've insulted anyone with my "Bug Eyes" topic, I'm terribly sorry. That's what my younger brother fondly calls them...
    Sorry I did not get back to you sooner, I missed this post. I don't think you insulted anyone, I just think is funny.

    I was hypo, and then started Armour and got LOTS and LOTS of hyper symptoms along with the hypo I had. That is when I got the Bug Eyes. It lasted just a few weeks, and it would come and go. It is a hyper symptom.

    Mintchoc

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 11:12 AM   #6
    MauraL
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    Poppy eyes can be caused by infiltrative ophthalmopathy or noninfiltrative ophthalmopathy. In infiltrative ophthalmopathy, the TSH receptor cells in the orbital tissue are under antibody attack from TSI (Graves') antibodies, and the eye gets pushed out because of swollen eye muscles; that condition is true proptosis. Noninfiltrative ophthalmopathy occurs when the upper and/or lower eyelids retract, exposing more of the white of the eye but without the muscle involvement that pushes the eyeballs forward; this looks the same as true proptosis because of the staring expression and because the eyeballs are more exposed, but it isn't true proptosis because the eyeball has not moved forward. It's caused by an adrenal response, not from the autoimmune Ab attack of Graves' Eye Disease. People with Graves' disease can have one type or the other or both at the same time.

    The symptoms of full-blown Graves' Eye Disease (GED) include red eyes, itchy eyes, dry eyes (curiously this will make your eyes water a lot), chemosis (fluid under the membrane covering the iris), puffy eyelids from edema, bags under the eyes from fluid and fat deposits, light sensitivity, double vision, weakened color vision, proptosis, lid retraction, and impaired night vision. You can have one or all of the symptoms to a greater or lesser degree. I'm a Gravie who's now hypo following RAI, and I experienced the onset of mild GED when I went hyper on too much Synthroid; I had the redness, itchiness, dryness, puffy lids, and mild double vision, but no lid retraction or proptosis, so I had the infiltrative type. Once my levels normalized, the symptoms largely resolved because I had a bout caused by temporarily abnormal levels, not the onset of a true course of GED that can progress even while euthyroid.

    People with Hashimoto's thyroiditis can have TSI antibodies (10% of all people with clinically diagnosed Grave's Eye Disease are technically Hashi hypos but they have TSI antibodies). It isn't uncommon for Gravies and Hashies to have the whole range of thryoid autoantibodies, and the disease course is determined by which ones predominate at any time. People are known to transition spontaneously from Hashi's to Graves' and back again if they have the whole set and different ones rise and fall over time.

    If you went hyper from a too-high dose of replacement meds and only had the staring for a bit but no other symptoms, then my guess would be that your hyper period stimulated your sympathetic nervous system, and resulted in the lid retraction of noninfiltrative ophthalmopathy. In other words, you may not have had true proptosis, just an adrenal-driven lid retraction that resolved when your thryoid hormone levels normalized. If you had any other symptoms, it's possible that your immune system was overstimulated from being hyper and you had a temporary rise in TSI Ab's that caused transcient eye signs similar to what happened to me.

    But you might ask your doctor/endo to test you for TSI autoantibodies, and you may want to see an ophthalmologist for a vision exam and a baseline if you haven't already done so.

     
    Old 03-08-2004, 11:22 AM   #7
    pickapro1999
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MauraL
    Poppy eyes can be caused by infiltrative ophthalmopathy or noninfiltrative ophthalmopathy. In infiltrative ophthalmopathy, the TSH receptor cells in the orbital tissue are under antibody attack from TSI (Graves') antibodies, and the eye gets pushed out because of swollen eye muscles; that condition is true proptosis. Noninfiltrative ophthalmopathy occurs when the upper and/or lower eyelids retract, exposing more of the white of the eye but without the muscle involvement that pushes the eyeballs forward; this looks the same as true proptosis because of the staring expression and because the eyeballs are more exposed, but it isn't true proptosis because the eyeball has not moved forward. It's caused by an adrenal response, not from the autoimmune Ab attack of Graves' Eye Disease. People with Graves' disease can have one type or the other or both at the same time.

    The symptoms of full-blown Graves' Eye Disease (GED) include red eyes, itchy eyes, dry eyes (curiously this will make your eyes water a lot), chemosis (fluid under the membrane covering the iris), puffy eyelids from edema, bags under the eyes from fluid and fat deposits, light sensitivity, double vision, weakened color vision, proptosis, lid retraction, and impaired night vision. You can have one or all of the symptoms to a greater or lesser degree. I'm a Gravie who's now hypo following RAI, and I experienced the onset of mild GED when I went hyper on too much Synthroid; I had the redness, itchiness, dryness, puffy lids, and mild double vision, but no lid retraction or proptosis, so I had the infiltrative type. Once my levels normalized, the symptoms largely resolved because I had a bout caused by temporarily abnormal levels, not the onset of a true course of GED that can progress even while euthyroid.

    People with Hashimoto's thyroiditis can have TSI antibodies (10% of all people with clinically diagnosed Grave's Eye Disease are technically Hashi hypos but they have TSI antibodies). It isn't uncommon for Gravies and Hashies to have the whole range of thryoid autoantibodies, and the disease course is determined by which ones predominate at any time. People are known to transition spontaneously from Hashi's to Graves' and back again if they have the whole set and different ones rise and fall over time.

    If you went hyper from a too-high dose of replacement meds and only had the staring for a bit but no other symptoms, then my guess would be that your hyper period stimulated your sympathetic nervous system, and resulted in the lid retraction of noninfiltrative ophthalmopathy. In other words, you may not have had true proptosis, just an adrenal-driven lid retraction that resolved when your thryoid hormone levels normalized. If you had any other symptoms, it's possible that your immune system was overstimulated from being hyper and you had a temporary rise in TSI Ab's that caused transcient eye signs similar to what happened to me.

    But you might ask your doctor/endo to test you for TSI autoantibodies, and you may want to see an ophthalmologist for a vision exam and a baseline if you haven't already done so.

    Maural,

    Great explaination of what the eye disease is. I have had 7 surgeries for the eye disease and now have hypoT. I was euroT during the eye problem. It is a pleasure to make your aquaintance.
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    Old 03-08-2004, 03:56 PM   #8
    MauraL
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    Hi, Kris.

    Sorry to hear that you got unlucky with GED, but I'm glad you're getting it all fixed. Are you at the end after seven surgeries or are there more to come?

    I started getting eye symptoms about seven or eight months ago, but they're largely resolved, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I still have a bit of double vision that I correct with prism glasses, but the other symptoms are gone (except for puff after a high-sodium day). It's definitely the scariest thing we deal with. I'll take thyroid problems over eye problems any day.

    Maura

     
    Old 03-09-2004, 04:59 PM   #9
    pickapro1999
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    Re: Bug Eyes

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MauraL
    Hi, Kris.

    Sorry to hear that you got unlucky with GED, but I'm glad you're getting it all fixed. Are you at the end after seven surgeries or are there more to come?

    I started getting eye symptoms about seven or eight months ago, but they're largely resolved, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. I still have a bit of double vision that I correct with prism glasses, but the other symptoms are gone (except for puff after a high-sodium day). It's definitely the scariest thing we deal with. I'll take thyroid problems over eye problems any day.

    Maura
    Hi Maural,

    Well they have them fixed, the best they can, I have so much scare tissue they can do no more. I still have alot of double vision and have to work real hard to get my eyes to work together but it is 1000% better than it was. They made alot of mistakes with me, such as, not checking my glasses and the bifocal being in the wrong place so I had some surgeries that I shouldn't have had to have but Oh well we are all human even doctors. I am glad to hear that most of your problems where resolved without surgery. That's wonderful. Yes there are alot of things with my eyes that I thought were caused by the surgeries that might be caused from the hypoT. Such as the depression and the brain not fuctioning right. I thought it was because I had to use so much of my brain power just to see that my brain wouldn't fuction right.

    It is a real thrill to meet someone that has had a few problems similar to mine. It is hard for people, to relate to, if they haven't kinda been there. You have a very good understanding of what happens or can happen cliniclly.

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