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    Old 10-30-2008, 01:34 AM   #1
    FinnMaid
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    The low TSH topic

    We're having a low TSH discussion (again ) here over the big sea. Most of the doctors are persistant that low TSH automatically increases your risks of heart problems and osteoporosis etc. regardless for example the fact that T4/T3-combination treatment almost automatically suppresses the TSH (and your other levels may well be in ranges and you'd have no hyperT symptoms).

    To my knowledge the only functions TSH has is to make the thyroid work and to be an indicator of thyroid hormone levels - there's just no evidence that it would do anything else right . If thyroid medication (or hyperT) would suppress TSH it wouldn't suppress any other hormones produced by the pituitary gland right or do anything else for that matter

    A thyroid friend of mine who brought this issue to the table (again) spent the weekend with other patients and (supposed) experts and she was told to decrease the dose just to get the TSH up - despite the cost (she's clearly still HypoT) And she was also told that maybe 10 % of us have trouble converting T4 to T3 properly - I know many of us will disagree (oh the number is higher than what was once told - one doctor thought it was more likely to win the lottery than to have convertion issues )

    I just can't get it through to me why the low TSH is so feared even when he patient is showing no HyperT symptoms whatsoever. I was determined not to comment this situation over here (I'm so ****** off ) but I just can't keep my mouth shut and I just had to come and ask you guys if you had any insight

    Last edited by FinnMaid; 10-30-2008 at 07:47 AM.

     
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    Old 10-30-2008, 04:35 AM   #2
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    Online American Doctors, Prolific Dr. Lowe

    Ive read that cancer patients have to be kept TSH-suppressed the rest of their lives.

    I observed a woman being sent to a hospital with a much too slow heart. Her husband was with her and told the doctor she's cold in summer. She was too slowed up to even tell the doctor anything. So I heard him say he'd test her thyroid function.

    And a commercial says "As we get older, our bodies absorb less calcium". That's what causes osteoporosis in a large percent of the population, so obviously nothing to do with thyroid. Of course some of us will have it, due to aging.

    A booklet from Blue Cross Blue Shield (insurance) says visit your provider's web sites. We may need to tell our doctors who resent our researching online instead of blindly trusting just them, that insurers recommend the internet.

    Knowledge is power. At least it tells you when to move on to another doctor. I just read where someone had their 11th doctor, and gave up on 4 endo's.

    Last edited by Eagle; 10-30-2008 at 05:03 AM.

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 04:54 AM   #3
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    Re: Online American Doctors, Prolific Dr. Lowe

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    I believe it was Dr. Lowe who said cancer patients have to be kept TSH-suppressed the rest of their lives.

    Proving it's not dangerous, and may even help protect against cancer?.
    I know thyroid cancer survivors usually keep their TSHs supressed in order to keep possible remains of the thyroid from growing and the cancer from reoccurring - it has been perfectly safe for them but not for any other people Now I'm hearing about "new guidelines" for them too - since suppressing TSH is so darn dangerous some doctors treat even cancer survivors with non-suppressant TSH's (it's kept low but not "suppressed low") AND one thyroid friend of mine with vaste knowledge of these things tells us that suppression therapy works best when FT3 is at the high end of the range - well what happens to TSH and FT4 when trying to achieve that on T4 medication only (which seems to be the only option at least for most part of our country)

    Last edited by FinnMaid; 10-30-2008 at 04:54 AM.

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 04:56 AM   #4
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Some people are hyper when their tsh is low, sometimes the thyroid medication suppresses the tsh and they are not really hyper in terms of the actual thyroid hormone (t4) flowing through their body.

    There is controversy in terms of bone loss, there are many different studies. I will not keep my tsh as suppressed as I do now (for thyroid cancer) when I go through menopause (based upon my free t4, I'm truly a bit hyper)---I just wouldn't want to take the bone loss risk myself. Also, it can affect blood pressure if you are truly hyperthyroid with too much hormone in your body.

    So, you don't want too much hormone, it is dangerous---if you are on medication though, I'm not sure that the tsh alone is a great indicator.

    Last edited by Reece; 10-30-2008 at 04:57 AM.

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 05:07 AM   #5
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Some people at this board have said their TSH is normally .01, and I believe most if not all said they have Antibodies and, I believe, Hashi's. It's been a while.

    My FT4 has been within range with a TSH of .01. Antibodies low. So what does this mean?

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 08:11 AM   #6
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Reece View Post
    So, you don't want too much hormone, it is dangerous---
    I totally get that but what happens when your TSH is not an indicator. My TSH was suppressed by a small (10 mcgs) amount of T3 - that would make my FT3 rise to middle of the range - how would that make it a risk I had heart palpitations, dizziness, weakness, disorientation etc. before I took T3 along and when I did something about those then I'm in huge danger .

    Last edited by FinnMaid; 10-30-2008 at 08:29 AM.

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 08:53 AM   #7
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    It's my belief that the bone argument is totally bogus. I take Armour, TSH is suppressed, and I have osteopenia. But ...
    (1)I have a family history of osteoP,
    (2) don't exercise every day,
    (3) did not get adequate calcium intake in my youth,
    (4) am vitamin D deficient (and probably always have been).

    Am I supposed to believe that T3 is the main contributing factor here? I absolutely don't. And I refuse to go through life with low T4 and T3 because mainstream medicine believes the right amount melts bones. There are simply too many causes of osteoP to believe that T3 - let alone the erroneous belief that suppressed TSH - is solely to blame.

    MG has posted scientific references about the non-danger of suppressed TSH.

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 01:19 PM   #8
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    I've posted what I've read about the non-dangers too. Totally agree about osteoporosis.

    FinnMaid, I don't take T3, afraid of it instinctively, so I don't know anything about your symptoms, and you do get your heart checked, right? My heart feels very weak if I lower my dosage of plain T4, even a sliver. Also had an occurrence of sleep apnea for the first time in my life. Woke from a nap feeling unable to take my next breath. Temps 94.6 in the mornings, no hyper symptoms at all, just slightly low TSH of .01, where I feel best. Maybe you don't need the T3? That's probably what you're asking. I should read it again but hopefully someone else will step in. Good luck.

    P.S. Hope I'm not repeating myself, but hypos' thyroid follicles can rupture, fragile from ill health, in the elderly and after childbirth, flood the bloodstream with FT4, and the TSH would go down. This is self-limiting, usually about 3 mo., no treatment necessary, can last longer in some cases. I posted about it in the similar thread today but may not have mentioned it here. The hypo state after a bout of this could become permanent I just read somewhere, if the Antibodies are high. I just don't want anyone to rush into having their thyroid destroyed thinking they have Graves, and maybe replacement supply diminish somehow.

    Last edited by Eagle; 10-30-2008 at 01:27 PM.

     
    Old 10-30-2008, 11:11 PM   #9
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    so I don't know anything about your symptoms, and you do get your heart checked, right? My heart feels very weak if I lower my dosage of plain T4, even a sliver. Maybe you don't need the T3? That's probably what you're asking.
    Yes I do need it since I had way much more problems without T3 - a was a zombie My GP at the local health station suggested that I was having panic attacks when I went to see him about the shortness of breath and heart racing so no help or heart checks from there Then I upped my T4 dose a bit and it helped the heart but nothing else and I kept getting worse in other respects so the T3 proved to be very much needed and I've been on it for almost 3 years. (I still have some issues but I'm afraid they are not cured by just thyroid meds) . What I don't get that since my (and many others) TSH is easily suppressed with T3 or sometimes with plain T4 how would just low TSH do anything? I have no intention to change my medications because of the suppressed TSH since I'd lose all mental and physical function NOW but I'm just curious and would still like to help others to battle against "TSH obsessed" doctors.

    Last edited by FinnMaid; 10-31-2008 at 12:14 AM.

     
    Old 10-31-2008, 01:05 PM   #10
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FinnMaid View Post
    Yes I do need it since I had way much more problems without T3 - a was a zombie My GP at the local health station suggested that I was having panic attacks when I went to see him about the shortness of breath and heart racing so no help or heart checks from there Then I upped my T4 dose a bit and it helped the heart but nothing else and I kept getting worse in other respects so the T3 proved to be very much needed and I've been on it for almost 3 years. (I still have some issues but I'm afraid they are not cured by just thyroid meds) .

    What I don't get that since my (and many others) TSH is easily suppressed with T3 or sometimes with plain T4 how would just low TSH do anything? I have no intention to change my medications because of the suppressed TSH since I'd lose all mental and physical function NOW but I'm just curious and would still like to help others to battle against "TSH obsessed" doctors.
    Why would just low TSH do anything? They sometimes say it stimulates "Gland Central" to produce more hormone.

    I'm obviously not an expert, but I have a theory due to some recent searches about the self-limiting high Frees and suppressed TSH, that the follicles in the gland are fragile and may rupture in people with poor health, the elderly, or pregnant or postpartum. You've probably looked into that already. I seemed to have a bout of it this July or August and numbers are starting to get better in just the right amount of time, about 3 mo.

    If anyone needs to know about this do a search, autoimmune or silent thyroiditis. I'm not sure it that's the same thing as thyrotoxicosis. Just notice that in the former, no destructive treatment is needed. The patient may be hypo afterwards, may recover from that if no high antibodies if I memorized the facts correctly.

     
    Old 10-31-2008, 01:38 PM   #11
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    Why would just low TSH do anything? They sometimes say it stimulates "Gland Central" to produce more hormone.
    What? Who says it stimulates higher production? In normal thyroid function, low TSH is the brake on the thyroid gland's production... It doesn't increase it.

    But we're talking about exogenous hormone here. Not normal thyroid function.

    Last edited by midwest1; 10-31-2008 at 01:39 PM.

     
    Old 11-01-2008, 03:20 AM   #12
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Eagle View Post
    Why would just low TSH do anything?
    Precisely, that's my point. So why are most doctors afraid of the low TSH like it was the plague

     
    Old 11-01-2008, 02:20 PM   #13
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    Re: The low TSH topic

    Because maybe they misunderstood what they were taught.

    Usually they don't realize that you must look at the Free's to decide dosage instead of the TSH. . And the Frees may not even be on the first lab report. You may have to request another for the Frees and the Antibodies.

    If they still don't understand, often you'll be advised to go to an Endo, but I'd first try a better informed primary care doctor, just to try to avoid the more complicated procedures. If they're not knowledgeable to treat you, are they really qualified to select your Endo either? Jmo.

    One of the well-known online doctors has pointed out that Endo's also make errors, even one at Mayo Clinic in the United States. I personally never did like to do there, try to avoid it like the plague.

    Last edited by Eagle; 11-01-2008 at 02:22 PM.

     
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