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    Old 12-11-2008, 11:14 AM   #1
    luvtocamp
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    Appliance Fitting Part 2

    Well got home a bit ago. He was very nice. He said he wanted me touching on my two back teeth- the way the denture is designed, I didn't know that. He then found I was hitting the pink stuff way in the back on the left and he adjusted the metal on the lower partial and did not touch any teeth he said, but now I feel the left side is so low.

    I wonder since that is the side the osteopath told him to lower, if it was really the pink stuff that was high and not the tooth she felt, as the left side now feels real low, I don't think it was higher to begin with.

    also the front top gum has bone loss and flabby , he said from wearing the other splint the first tmj dentist made me and the teeth he made me so I'd hit on the front. Not much to do about it he said. Is your front top gum flabby?

    He didn't lower the bite as he said I'll get use to it. I told him its hard to talk and he said I'll get use to it, and to wait for the osteopath.

    He said no ones cheekbones are symetrical so not to think about it.

    Yes I hear that from my husband all the time, just start chewing , just eat. But you- like I know its hard.

    That is a good sign your ears unplugged. I know what you mean about seeing another dentist. I hate the thought of it, starting out from scratch. I mainly went for the ICAt Scan just to see if they could see something wrong, like a nerve being compressed or something ya know, my heads bones out of wrack, some reason for this pain.

    If you go to another dentist they are going to have their own opinions,and neuromuscular ones use the tens machine and you don't like them, but I guess it wouldn't hurt getting a second opinion, I would for sure bring them to your chiro and have him check your head with them in.

    I think your dentist needs to work with your splints a bit more, just like mine with my teeth, if the left back is lower he'll need to add on to it somehow, but I know its a hard call, since they all have their own opinions.

    My friend today said his Mom had full dentures all his life, and she never takes them out at night, just to clean and she is 81 and still on her first pair- no problems eating. He then asked me if I wanted gum to chew and he said maybe just start chewing and I told him no, everyone has good intentions I guess they they tell you to just chew, but its hard.

    I asked him today, why they didn't just pull my lower fronts and he said thats a good question but they hate to pull teeth that still have bone.

    He said to have a upper denture that is removable it would need two implants. I wonder if I should start saving for that and for a few on the bottom, if this ever gets better- this is all so tiresome.

    I did say to him today that I feel like I'm ruined for life and he said no, but thats how I feel most of the time.

    Do you even remember what its like to just eat and talk without thinking about it- I don't.

    Last edited by luvtocamp; 12-11-2008 at 11:33 AM.

     
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    Old 12-11-2008, 02:00 PM   #2
    Thelma-Louise
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    No - I am starting to totally forget what's its like to be normal - not think of how my teeth meet or not, or how to speak or laugh w/o giving it a thought. My mouth just opened and closed, my tongue just moved without thought or pain - I never really thought too much about it till this happened and had I known this was going to happen I would have never ever done anything to my teeth - not the braces, or perio surgery or implants, nada!


    I've been trying all day to wear them - they are in, they are out, they are in, they are out - its just making my head and neck hurt more. The more I look at them the more I can see what the problem is - he has everyhthing too far out on one side and not far out enough on the other side - the whole top is off - same as before - I am just so burned up about it - if I can see it - why can't they? I can see the gum indentation where the sides of my teeth used to be and the little bricks of teeth are not near that - they flange out in the back - and my canines used to be behind my front teeth and again they are next to my front teeth - putting them there just makes it harder for my lips to close. I guess I will have another talk with him about this - I don't know what to do at this point but doing the same thing over and over is not going to help and I had this with my 2nd tmj dentist for 18 months - he kept doing the same thing over and over - but at least he had the right side fitting correctly and just couldn't get the left side - thats's why I am so mad - at one pont the right side was not bothering me and now it does. Why can't he just use my before tmj models and go from there?

    That's why I wouldn't let him do any bite adjustments - why do they want to do bite adjustments if its the fit that is wrong - that just makes things worse. My front is not flabbly but one spot hangs much longer than the other - as if its sagging or drooping - but I also had bone grafts done there when the implants were removed - the OS said "just in case you ever want them again".

    I started to draft an email to that other dentist I just found in my town and then thought I would wait and speak to the chiro and dentist next week. He's obviously new here and I guess b/c he is only a few blocks away and has good office hours - open all week with several late nights - I thought at least it would be easier to go to someone down the street then travel 45 mins - I can't help but think my dentist is making this too complex and maybe the answer is in my own backyard so to speak. Wouldn't that be a kicker - spending almost 5 yrs going all over the NY/NJ/CT tristate area and end up getting fixed by a dentist in town?

    When the dentist is lowering your bite - does he lower the top or the bottom? He should be able to add white acryllic to it - my dentist added some to the outter side of of my right lower teeth - now I realize though why those teeth felt like they need more width to them - b/c the upper right flanges out toward the right - see, you make changes b/c it seems right at the time but then realize its due to something else and probably was not necessary.

    Oh LTC - I am so miserable today, upset about the argument with my sister, upset that these things turned out no better than the last set and upset b/c I am now hurting almost as bad as I was a few months ago - Things were slowly getter better and I feel like I took 2 steps backward in as many days.
    I think I wll need to start taking the baclofen again - I had weaned myself off it and the triavil these past couple of months and was just using aleve and a night time pain reliever.

    My dentist keeps reassuring me I am not ruined for life either - I am not so sure to be honest with you. I know at various points with various dentists I have experienced occassional spurs of progress or improvement but they were short lived and then undone by something else they would do.

    I would think you need to bite a bit on your back teeth - you need something to stabilize the jaw and keep the atlas in place and the back teeth do that - but to a certain degree you also need the teeth just before your front ones to meet as well - to prevent your upper from over shooting your lowers - this is especially true if your front teeth do not meet. The first tmj dentist I had left me hitting only on the front and man it caused such vertigo and a feeling of falling or feeling unstable and my jaws felt they could not close and could never rest.

    I have had it today - sorry I even woke up - I need a "do over". Did you get an appt with the osteo yet?

     
    Old 12-12-2008, 06:30 AM   #3
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    How are you today?

    When you go to the dentist have him look at the acrylic for the indentations of where your biting. So frustrating hey. It sounds like they made your top bite wider, mine is too, I use to have space between teeth and cheeks when I smiled, now I'm all teeth showing. Kinda chipmonkish is what I call it,
    I also think my face looks wider and my cheekbones really stick out, as like you they set the teeth on the outside of the gumline. Do your cheeks look wider to you??

    Is there anything we can put on a tooth that you can buy in the store to add just a little height, as I know my left is lower and r. highter. I also notice the partial has a rocking to it, really just noticed it this am, maybe due to the adjustment he did yesterday.

    Is this dentist new or just new to your area? I know the driving gets old and stressful, especially for a few mins. I wish I had a dentist in town I could drive to. have you called to see if they give a free consultation? I would at least go in for one of those. Make your hx. sort as possible, I mean what you have now is what they have to work with.

    No he's only taken off the bottom on the one side but they are porcelain so I dont' know if he can add acrylic. But my bite is so uneven, and I think like I said they lowered the wrong side.

    I don't know, my dentist said yesterday just try to forget they are there, yeah right and eat, thats like having a toothache and ignoring it!!!

    I don't know I've been thinking maybe I should get the lowers pulled, I think the partial is the culprit if they can't get this figured out, The only comfy partial I ever had was the first one and it was all acylic not with any metal. I also heard an lower denture with a few implants are much more stable than a partial, but I would really have to save up money or win the lotto.

    When is your dentist appoint. Is it Tues?? after the chiro again.

    I get the same with my husband , he doesn't know I went to the dentist with Dave yesterday, I just don't want to bother him about it, and he would say like he did last night, you need to eat. They don't know what its like, and really I sometimes think what they heck, people eat with no teeth, the friend that brought me yesterday has molars missing in his back and he has no problems, but I don't think they had their bite changed like we have and got so messed up with the headbones and neck ya know.

    I get one more adj. before Xmas (the 22). I'm going to really quest. the osteo and hopefully I'll have my scan by then , and if I still feel that side is low maybe I'll email him before I go, I wonder can they just take a brush and add a bit, the thing he cut off was the cutting bar on the bottom, and or try lowering the other side a bit. Its like biting on a marble back there.

    Hey I try not to take the meds either, but I figure what the heck, at least I can function a bit better. So if it helps you thru this rough spell take something.

    I just wanted to add and it may sound corny, but what is your heart telling you to do, I add the Lord eveyday what is it I should do, give me a sign of some sort, Maybe you finding that new dentist in your backyard was a sign for you , I don't know.

    Last edited by luvtocamp; 12-12-2008 at 07:53 AM.

     
    Old 12-12-2008, 06:38 PM   #4
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    When they say "just forget that they [teeth] are there" it is not a good sign. It's like I was told "not to move my jaw". Well, maybe not to breathe too?
    The appearance of the smile (wider, etc.) is all changeable easily if you have the temps; then ask a dentist to do the same on the finals.
    The essential thing is to be functionally comfortable and pain-free!

    I was wondering too how people with many missing teeth can eat and sleep while I can't with all the "teeth". Then I realized that one thing is when changes happen naturally and gradually, then the body adjusts in most cases, but when there is an unpredicted dental work especially on several teeth at once this can throw off too much for the jaw to adapt.
    It just cannot move on its path so to speak.

     
    Old 12-12-2008, 09:59 PM   #5
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    Stillhope - all your posts are right on - many of the things you have stated I have found to be true - although its has taken me 4 years of trial and error and making many mistakes. I think some of the reason for my decrease in pain over the past several months is that I have been trying to keep myself busy enough so that I "foget" about my problem and doing that allows my jaw to naturally hang down and remain open and that is when I get the greatest relief - when I tell my dentist he should increase my vertical dimension to that position however he balks and says that is way too high. Its a constant battle - why don't they listen to us - the patients - or is it they want the steady income - which I hate myself for thinking - but we can not all be dummies. And yes, I believe too much radical change in the bite can cause the problem - those that have lost teeth or have had reconstruction over time probably had the good fortune of the body having the ability to adjust to the change gradually.

    Hey LTC - I was up till 4 am and finally the headache and face pain and eye pain eased up and I was able to get a few hrs sleep - and felt back to how I was before I started with the new splints. Good enough to do some xmas shopping with my sister today even though I did take 2 baclofen before and during our jaunt out.

    I feel wider on top - both in the back - since my tongue feels like there is too much room there (I think they are wrong about having enough freeway space or room - too much allows for lack of tongue guidance in my opinion) and in the front b/c I can't close my lips together and if I do I look like I am struggling - my upper lip will even start to twitch or quiver if I force it to meet the lower lip. This is what was wrong the first time too.

    I am not sure what you could put on your teeth to add some height back that would stay or bond to porcelain - other than porcelain filler used to repair stoves, sinks, tubs, etc - but it would need 24 hrs to set up and become hard. For the rocking on your partial have you tried using Sea Bond or Polident adhesive cushions or strips - sounds like you need a reline on them - do they do that with partials as well? Also, it just occurred to me that at one point before the tmj I needed a rc on a tooth with a crown and they were able to drill thru the crown and then seal it with porcelain so I am sure they have something that will bond with the porcelain and it was something they put on the tooth - first some type of bonding adhesive and then the actual filler and they used a laser light to "cure" it.

    I don't think the LVI dentist I found is new per se - just new in my area b/c his site says he has offices in NJ as well. His site says he is also a professor and director at Columbia's Dental University in NYC and trained there as well.

    I don't know - today - my sister said that I sounded better than the other day and I said b/c the pain eased up early this morning - and she said I bet the splints are moving you and that's why you feel better and I said no the splints made it worse and I feel better b/c I took them out and she said maybe you just have to feel rotten for awhile and get through it. Do you think that is the case? That we need to force ourselves to endure that type of pain or do you think the splints or dentures should make us feel better with little or no additional discomfort?

    Let me ask you this - I noticed tonight when I put my upper and lower splint/dentures together when they are not in my mouth - they line up beautifully - yet when they go in my mouth the upper front teeth protrude a 1/2 inch over the bottom teeth and the upper front teeth feel like they flange out - almost perpendicular to my gums. Yet if I tip the upper splint down in the front so the back part of the splint raises up, the upper front teeth then look like they are more vertically aligned with the lower front teeth and the plate of the upper splint doesn't look so tipped backwards. This however results in the upper back/side teeth needing a good 1/4 inch of height or length added. I guess my question is why do the splints fit together when they are not in my mouth - but when they are in my mouth they are so mis-alinged and do not match up? Is it the articulator making this happen?

    My heart is telling me to move on - I am not a quitter and will often perservere and put with things longer than I should yet at the same time I have on occassion been too hasty and impulsive with certain decisions in my life - so I am still debating the issue to try someone else or not - but this is the 3rd set of splints/dentures with Dr L with almost the same results - so I feel like the writing is on the wall and I may be stubbornly denying it out of fear of starting all over with someone new. I know my sister thinks no teeth will help since she does not think this is a bite issue - so she will tell me I am crazy and foolish and badger me over this, etc.

    Well I have the chiro this Tuesday at 1pm and the dentist this Thursday at 5:30 and then the chiro is out the week of Xmas and the dentist is out until the beginning of January.

    I was thinking maybe you should buy some wax or Dent Temp and just try adding a little to the lower on the left side - I know its not perm and will fall off but if you try it and see it helps that may persuade your dentist to build it back up again.

    Last edited by Thelma-Louise; 12-12-2008 at 10:02 PM.

     
    Old 12-13-2008, 07:06 AM   #6
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    Stillhope- I agree too, how in the world can one ignore their teeth if they are not right. If I knew what I knew now I would of just had my first set of dentures relined, but they were 6 years old and the teeth were worn, so I did what they say, dentures need to be replaced every 6-7 years. How are you doing now, what symtoms do you have?

    TL- my teeth line up when not in but when in only my two back teeth touch. On your lower how far back does the acrylic go back behind the teeth? I wish I could see your splints.


    It sound like your bite is too high or the front teeth are protruding out too much. I can close my mouth without quivering, but its now comfortable, kinda a chore. These teeth are made so you have to keep the lower jaw down and forward otherwise I hit the pads back there, very uncomfortable, as my jaws keeps coming back and hits the pink stuff if you know what I mean.

    Where do your teeth touch when you close, do you feel your back molars touch, and do the side teeth touch. I know they don't feel right but do all your teeth touch except the fronts?

    Glad you got out shopping yesterday. I never took any meds before this but now I take them whenever just to give me relief.

    Thanks for the procelain tip, so he can add , as what side is right I don't know the low or the high side. I can't put glue in under the lowers as then the back pads would be higher too if you know what I mean so I had to put something on the tooth itself. He has alot of work to do on these dentures.

    My other tops don't fit now as the new tops have changed my upper gums

    I would go in for a consult. Even having someone closer would mean less stress, and tell him that you need someone who can work with you till you get right and is he willing to do that and to listen to you. Do try to get your money back from your other dentist, at least some of it, he may be glad your moving on as well, and will gladly reinburse you to start over with the new dentist if you decide to go that route.

    Has your sister had any dental work done, or just minor stuff. I feel its your teeth as I know the more they messed with me , the splints and all that the worst I got. I know a change in the bite can mess everything up. I know its frustrating when you in your heart know where the problem is and those close to you tell you just eat and get over it and get use to it, but they aren't having the ear pain, ringing and facial spasms either.

    OH what another holiday, the neighbors brought over the gifts for their kids (they store them here) and I just though how I use to love Xmas and now I can't wait till its over with, no tree this year, just a couple decorations inside, my door weath, and my husband has to put a few lights outside- which I always use to do. I use to put on Xmas music and decorate our tree and drink a few beers- haven't for a few years.

    Last edited by luvtocamp; 12-22-2008 at 07:27 AM.

     
    Old 12-13-2008, 09:05 AM   #7
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    I don't think I am closing and can't tell what is touching and what is not - when I try to close I feel like I am pushing the upper splint back into the back of my mouth - again it could be b/c I am trying to get my lips together. I was thinking last night maybe what I should ask him to do is take off the front top teeth and try to align my back/side teeth so I am somewhat balanced - maybe this would then indicate how my front teeth should be. I also think the lack of height in the back is forcing the back part of my palate to sag down - this would in turn force the front part of the palate to raise up (like the Titanic) and would then make my front teeth feel like they are flanging outward. Or maybe he should make front teeth only and once they meet correctly just fill in the gaps between the upper and lower back teeth - I feel that some teeth need more than others back there - so like that floor analogy we talked about - this would even out the surface plane

    My splints go back as far as they can but they are not pushing on the ligament between the upper and lower jaws. But the upper left side feels like it goes back further - almost as if it is following the cheek bone to the joint but the right side feels like it only goes back to the middle of the cheek bone and stops abruptly midway. My last set actually pushed against the ligament on the bottom - very uncomfortable b/c every time I tried to speak it would push so hard back there that I would stop mid-sentence and try and push my jaw forward. What I think is happening now is I need the last upper tooth on each side to extend just a bit further back than the last lower tooth - to hold up my palate and cheek bones - I don't think I ever bit down on them to be honest as I feel my bite was more centrally located - another reason why I think my center molars need to be longer and not really the last back tooth on the top.

    My sister only had braces as a child and that was rough enough for her - she sucked her thumb and as a result had to use an expander for a year. I remember how rotten that was for her. She opted several years ago not to do perio surgery when advised to so last year she lost one molar (never replaced it) and now this year the one next to it is bothering her and ready to go as well - so she is just now starting to think about getting a bridge or partial on that side - she even had me ask Dr L if he would look at it and advise her of her options - but she does not want implants and she does not want to spend a lot b/c she feels its inevitable that she will one day need dentures so why waste her time. Even then - I bet she will not have any problems. She was left with 4 side teeth after her braces and I was only left with 3 side teeth on each side - my upper canines however were pushed more laterally so they acted as "side" teeth and now I see they are acting as anterior or front teeth.

    My head is spinning over all of this - I feel better overall - but my brain is telling me something is wrong with my mouth and I think it may be too hard to explain to a dentist so he can fix it b/c its not something you can see - its like telling someone you can't breathe - but when they don't see anything blocking your airway or see something on film - they don't know why either.

    Actually last year I did better for some reason in terms of decorating and trying to enjoy the xmas season - maybe b/c my body was starting to feel better - this year I can't seem to embrace it al all - and I think its b/c I am now extremely frustrated and stressed out by it. I am just having a very hard time focusing my thoughts and sticking to one thing and getting it done. This morning I found a cup of tea on the kitchen table from last night - I had made it and just left it there completely forgetting about it - things like that where within 5 mins you forget what you were doing? At one point yesterday my sister started shaking her head and was laughing and I said what's so funny - and she said do you hear some of the things you are saying today - she said you are making no sense whatsoever. Do you think its the baclofen that causes that?

    Maybe what you and I should do is scrape together what little money we have and open our own dental lab and make the darn teeth we need.

     
    Old 12-13-2008, 09:32 AM   #8
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    I added a ps to my last post about my teeth.

    Ok I also noticed that I have lines above my upper lip, like smoking lines when I close my mouth now, that is because like you I guess, I am pushing my top lip forward to close, so he has these out a bit too far and too high up. Yes one of my lower gums goes farther back- I also feel like my back palate if further down now as I only bite on the back and looks like my front teeth go up- just like you.

    yes I do think the baclofen could cause that. I need a happy pill. I do that too, like can't really concentrate and think right.

    I know he tried not to have me show gum but he did an overkill and I know he wanted my uppers forward to make sure my lowers don't touch them, but I think he did an overkill. At least my older set looked nicer.

    I wish we could put pics on this site, so we could see each other problems.

    OK- I watched myself talk. I only had one line above my top lip, but when I take, my upper lip goes out so far that they are several lines, so I figure now in a few months I'll have a very wrinkled upper lip. I wonder why some people who don't smoke have wrinkles there well I guess thats why.

    Last edited by luvtocamp; 12-22-2008 at 07:28 AM.

     
    Old 12-13-2008, 04:59 PM   #9
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    If he does redo these for you will you be able to wear your old ones for a short time?

    Funny, as desperate as we are to just have teeth and be pain free - although I know at times I have said I would take any teeth and any color - of course we still want them to look nice. I think part of it has to do with the inherent self image we have of ourselves in our minds - when you try to visualize yourself you see one image in your mind of what you should look like and then you see another image in the mirror - and when there is too much of a difference, its hard to accept it. I actually like the teeth he used this time - especially the canines. I wasn't too thrilled with the color though - they are a little yellower than the very first set he did - and they acknowledged that they did use the wrong color - but that it would be corrected if we ever went to perm teeth.

    Today I had the bright idea that maybe my dentist should cut holes in the upper plate where my back teeth are and let them pop through and then adjust the upper so he can get my front teeth to meet and see what that leaves in terms of balancing my bite. I think its time he starts thinking outside of the box and get more creative.

    Its hard to say about the upper lip - I smoke so I would expect lines but I think b/c I have to make such an effort to close it focring my lips to constrict abnormally. A firend of mine had a horizonal line across her upper lip - it really bothered her too - when she would smile her upper lip would curl upward - almost flip up and she used to comment how mine did not but that I had a more pouty look as if I was a snob or stuckup. So I must have been pursing my lips together even before the tmj.

    Yes - I do wish we could post pictures as well - I bet we would be able to point out things for each other that we are not seeing ourselves and get more ideas in terms of what our dentists should be doing.

    Well I maanged to put some lights outside and tonight I will try and get the tree up while Its a Wonderful Life is on - and tomorrow my sister is coming over and she wants to make cookies - I haven't tried the splints on since yesterday as I just don't want to end up in that much pain again - I have a feeling I will never have teeth again.

     
    Old 12-13-2008, 09:41 PM   #10
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    Hello TL and LTC! Somehow I expected to have an email about the posts so thought there were none. Was missing you already! You are both very sweet, nice ladies. I smile through the tears when I read your posts. It is all so familiar! Me too, I learned mostly through the trial-and-error, mostly error method, really the hard way. You won't believe, I don't believe myself that this January, right after the New Year's eve (it was a new Millennium!) will be 9 years of my continuous "dental disaster". I was totally dentally ignorant.

    By now, I learned a lot also from a friend's friend, a lab technician who tried helping me some, but he only works with ceramic and I need the comfy temps. He is frustrated with the majority of dentists too and does not trust them to fix his teeth. So don't think that something is wrong with us or our bites. Dentists are just really too busy keeping their businesses and making money so they are on a processing line themselves. Does not help us, ah? There are very few who are still into caring for their patients. The ones I know are not too competent to do a full-mouth reconstruction, i.e. to "do the case from scratch". Decent and competent seem to be almost excluding each other.

    TL, I like your sense of humor about the porcelain for the stoves & sinks. Humor is all we have to counterbalance the sad situation. Some dentists told me: "...and you still laugh?" I said: "I tried crying, it did not help, so I laugh, it's more pleasant and people can join me."
    Unfortunately, dentists claim that they cannot add anything to a ceramic crown once it's permanently cemented in the mouth. A lab can add and change a crown up to 10 times but they need to put it in the oven (so you were not far in your analogue).

    Are you with an LVI dentist now? If the splints line up nicely but not in your mouth it only means that the measurement of your bite (BR- bite registration) was not done correctly. A correctly done BR requires really careful attention and high accuracy of the dentist, as well as competence.
    In our cases of a "lost bite" it's not right to say: "just bite down".
    I'd suggest to tell your dentist that you feel that the BR was not correct and that the splints do not allow your jaw to go in its physiological and comfy position. If your heart is telling you to change a dentist, do so. LTC gave good suggestions: get your money (as much as you can) back and look for a better dentist.
    My shortest requirement for a dentist is 'decent and competent', though being able to communicate properly with him is essential -- just like with a mate/husband.

    And yes, like LTC said, I would try to ignore your sister's comments. She is not in the same shoes, or boat.Those who were not there just can't even imagine, I couldn't imagine it until I got it myself.

    Like both of you, when I am in pain I just want any comfy temps, green, yellow, in dots,... but when I am better I do want them to look nice. It's our teeth, our smiles, our faces. Making it any shape and any color from the outside surface (not on the biting) is not a big deal. So, once you get to the comfort, please, insist to make those changes. It affects the whole identity! I don't feel like myself since it all started. Cannot wait to "get myself back" one day, still hope! And yes, the shape of the lip depends on the teeth. I used to have it really nice, had a nice smile ... until I went for a dental check-up...

    Do you have the original models of your teeth before the devastating dental work? It's a good idea to ask for the models before going to a next dentist. As patients we have the right for the x-rays and the models (not for the photos which they take but a dentist can give them too if he is nice).

    LTC, do you also have an LVI dentist? It seems that both of you have the splints forcing the jaw to move forward more than it wants. It can really be damaging to the jaw so be careful. Being in the splint suppose to relax the jaw and be pain-free; not what I "hear" from you. Do your ears hurt? Like having metal nails hammered there? What about the pain in the forehead? Do you have two wrinkles between your eyebrows and cannot easily relax the forehead? What about your vision and eye pain?
    TL, from what you write it looks like your jaw moves a bit to one side naturally, right? Mine looks this way too in the mouth, on the face it looks symmetric. It just shows that the path of the jaw should be carefully aligned on the splints to what your jaw wants.

    Oh, this morning I thought more about people with missing teeth, and here is the metaphor I came up with.

    Imagine swings being hung between the narrow walls in a way that they can easily go up and down (or back and forth) without touching the walls. If some of the walls will be removed, the swings can still go easily the way they did.
    And now imagine that someone rebuilt the wall but has not checked how the swings move, i.e. some of the bricks are sticking out inside these former walls. If these bricks do not stick too much, the swings can lightly hit a brick, shake a bit to one side but you still can ride on them (and can even “forget about that shake on the ride” – like dentists suggest, “forget about your teeth”). But if there are too many bricks which do not allow your swings to move freely, you will definitely be feeling too much “shaking” during your ride, to the point that you would rather not ride at all, to say the least. But as people we have no choice and cannot get off from our “TMJ swings” which move 24/7. Moreover, the swings will start breaking as well, even if you managed to block your “bumpy” sensations by the numbing pills and shots. Distracting yourself from pain only makes the damage to the jaw, teeth (and gums) more serious.
    Well, enough for now.

     
    Old 12-14-2008, 04:39 AM   #11
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    TL- yes the looks are second to the feel of them now. What do you mean holes where your back teeth are, isn't it made like a partial or is it more like and overdenture and goes over all your teeth. I know my first lower partial was acrylic and where my molar was in the back there was a hole there for the molar. That may be your problem.
    Hopefully your sister won't have our problems, I personally don't know anyone or have ever known anyone with this problem so it was very new to me 3 years ago.

    I bite only on the two back teeth which make me feel like my jaw points up and seems to want me to put my head forward if you know what I mean. In my opinion its like wearing a back molar splint where only the back two molars hit, and they are the only teeth with the cutting blades on. So lower those and so goes the cutting blade. I would need a reline to keep my other tops in now.

    StillHope- Glad your hear. Now my dentist said the jaw can never be too far forward only too far back. He is an otho dentist I guess, he works with osteopaths.

    I have two frown lines between my eyes now, never really had before, funny you mentioned it. Yes my ears feel like ice picks in them and ringing and congested.

    I wish I knew a lab guy, there was a denturist working around but he got into trouble a while ago, but I do know another one that works around 40 miles from me, I wonder what you think of them. I worry about only hitting on my two back molars if that will give me an open bite over time, I have a full upper and lower partial with only 5 lower front teeth.

    I try to keep a sense of humor but it gets so old. Are you able to work . This has become all consuming for me to the point of hardly on days being able to function or drive. My first tmj dentist moved my jaw way back and now this one wants it forward- so I have no idea where my bite is.

    The swing thing was good, also like if one chain of the swing is longer than the other.

    Stillhope- I just noticed you posted on the other thread, boy you are a wealth of info.
    and have been through a lot, I am going to use your advice and I see my osteo Wed. and ask her some of these quests. I imagine thats why my tmj dentist uses the flat top dentures, so my jaw can go where it wants, the only problem is I hit when I talk and one side hits way heavy, so I'll try to keep my teeth apart till the next visit.

    Last edited by luvtocamp; 12-14-2008 at 05:34 AM.

     
    Old 12-14-2008, 08:00 AM   #12
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    LTC, thanks for asking the other day about my symptoms, it's useful for me to get motivation to help myself. I woke up with my jaw "on one side", hurting and the body twisted. I know it will take time and effort to let it go back to "normal". It's like it is following some patterns of twisting and untwisting, like starts a program and has to go all the way through all the moves of the spine, etc., bringing the same sequence of symptoms (not just in the jaw!). It is SO annoying! Work? No, l had to quit it a while ago but I am still doing (when I can ) related things for the future.

    Yes, ask your osteo and let me know what she says. In regards to your bite I am pretty sure that you do need to have it more to the back. It's another overkill now. You had it too far back which was not good but now it is definitely too forward due to your ear, wrinkles and other symptoms. For me it's a 100% sign! It seems that your "interference" as they call it is exactly on the last molars, it's a classic example.
    I consulted an ortho as well when being already educated; what he suggested was so ridiculous that I never even went back. I am very sure that in your case a good "classic" specialist would do a good job and make you pain free in a short time. Look for those from Pankey Institute, possibly from Dawson's trainings.

    Were you ever told to have a "long centric"? If your splint is flat can you move the jaw symmetrically as it wants? Why are you asking then about the different lengths of the chain in the swings?
    It is a very right question! But it's our "right" to have it the way it is. The walls (i.e. the teeth) should match its path and not the other way around. My disks are now worn out differently b/c of the former dental work done by an "excellent dentist" who too made it for the too far back position and with an interference (a brick) on the premolar! Now one dentist asked me how could I have lived like this for many years?! And others simply do not notice anything even if I show it to them on the teeth or models.
    Very likely that in what you had "too far back" it would be possibly to adjust it easily to allow your jaw to be more forward AS WELL, not instead! If you still can use that, go ahead with a Pankey trained dentist or any other classic, careful dentist with good eyes and hands.

    Still I'd suggest for you to "find" your bite yourself.
    I understood that you just have dentures, not splints, right? or what?
    "Steel" marking paper after they use it in the office to make adjustments. Make your jaw relax and be pain-free, learn to let it bite (as I described in another post) where it wants (do not make any tooth contact yet). Then place a marking paper and start biting very slowly, just let your jaw close "on the imaginary food" until it will hit the teeth through the marking paper. Remove your splint and remember the marks. It has to be on all the teeth! If it's only on the last molars as you say, let your doc know.
    Learn to reproduce your "bite" in no pain ANYWHERE, don't forget about the right posture and the head over the shoulders when you do all the above!

    TL, it's good for you too to find your bite. It definitely seems that your splints are not for your bite but I am not sure, wish I could see your splints, etc. What are your TMJ symptoms (pains)? I think you do have a low VDO. You need to relax your face muscles and the shoulders! Just do what I said about relaxing the jaw and while standing feel your shoulders. Can you let them drop, just hang? Do not hold them.
    Are they even? Learn to let them both "drop dead". Only then try closing your jaw and watch whether the teeth '"want" to touch without you lifting your shoulders (if this was the case). It might be as well "in the air", earlier than you will reach ANY teeth. Let me know if this is the case, as I am very curious about this.

    Yes, guys it would be great to have a lab because we will definitely understand other people when they say they are not comfy! I had this thought as well. TL, we do sound like "discovering" or repeating similar stories and even similar thoughts!

    Guys, I really wish you can get off your TMJ pills! It's poisoning your bodies. No prescribed pill is harmless. Leave them for extreme emergencies. And yes, I learned after a long time of suffering to be in control (or try to be) of my mouth, bite, jaw. No one knows better how it feels and what hurts than I do. Dentists should build the walls for my swings and not twist my swings out of the sockets! TMJ is the most complex and important joint in the body: can we live without a head??

     
    Old 12-14-2008, 10:29 AM   #13
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    StillHope

    you said "My disks are now worn out differently b/c of the former dental work done by an "excellent dentist" who too made it for the too far back position and with an interference (a brick) on the premolar! "

    that is excately what the first tmj dentist did. made a splint out of the front of my top denture that made my jaw slide back and only my front teeth touching- he raised my two lower cuspides so when he made my new upper denture and lower partial my jaw could not slide forward (interference (like you say you had) he said to remind me to keep my jaw back) and made my dentures so my lower teeth hit in hit the back of the front top teeth which kept my jaw back= sounds like that is what your dentist did. He wasn't what they call a bioesthetic dentist was he?

    I know find out that is a no no with someone who has an upper denture and lower partial, when the botton real teeth touch the top denture teeth causes combination syndrome. He also changed the whole structure of my head, felt like my head was broke.

    Its just frustrating not being able to get a balanced type of bite.

    What I meant by one chain longer on the swing, I mean an unbalanced bite from side to side.

    Yes the wrinkles, after the stress and 10-15lb weigh loss over 3 years I feel I aged 20 years, I'm 54 now. I've had dentures for several years now.

    So what are your plans now to sort this out or are you opting for no treatment at this time, or searching for another dentist.

    What is ""long centric"?

     
    Old 12-14-2008, 04:32 PM   #14
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    LTC,
    How did that dentist determined your back biting position? Asked you to bite "to the back" or manipulated your jaw when you were lying upside-down in the chair?
    Did you feel bad things when he made that front appliance out of your dentures?
    After your replies I'll understand better. If that back position was OK then all that needed was to adjust the fronts from inside to give your jaw some room to go back and forth. You would be totally fine, no broken head. I'll comment more later.

    I don't see much difference between the bite on dentures and on the crowns/teeth. It's still the same jaw, same mouth, ... I think it's only the way the "teeth" are attached-- by glue or permanently. But frankly I know nothing specifically about dentures, though never heard/read that it should be different in terms of bite.
    Could you speak normally and relax your jaw/lips in that stuff?

    I meant: how do you know that your jaw is unbalanced from side to side? What do you experience: pain on one side, sliding to one side, face skewed or what?

    You ARE young! I am 1 year older and do feel young (well, not when in pain!), and yes, I feel that I aged 20-25 years during my dental story (well, it's almost 10 in reality too!!)

    I will "date" a new dentist tomorrow. I call it dating since it's even more difficult. From a short chat we need to find out whether we can trust and like each other. He-- to take me after "I've been through a lot of dental work", and me: "whether he is going to really help me or just get the money and take advantage of my misery". I had it so many times this way, you won't believe. They think we don't notice but they say and use the same exact tricks over and over again. Like they arrange with you to do one thing which makes sense but instead do something different which makes it hurt even more and clearly made no sense and they often even deny it when it is obvious. Surely, the next step is to tell you "to look for a specialist" and they keep the money, of course.
    It's so sad and so frustrating!

    Long centric basically means that if your bite is made for its "back position" which has to be determined properly (!-- not just "bite to the back"), you still want to bite a tiny bit (about 1 mm or less) forward from that position. But when you speak or want to relax your jaw might still want to go more forward (but you won't bite there). And this space is needed as well, they might say "you need some room" to relax your jaw, this is it. Long centric is the need to bite in two places.
    Some people don't need that room and their jaw opens practically up and down, not much forward.
    I am curious, is your face kind of round or long and thin?

     
    Old 12-14-2008, 08:51 PM   #15
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    Re: Appliance Fitting Part 2

    Wow, you guys have been busy today! Its nice to have you on board StillHope - not in terms of someone else having this hideous problem - but you do bring a fresh perspective and a lot of info to this ongoing discussion LTC and myself have been having. I guess I am the baby in the group - I just turned 50.

    I'll try and catch up a bit as there was so much going on with your other posts.

    StillHope - I am on my 4th dentist now and March will mark my 5th anniversary with this problem. I have a complex dental history - had 2 facial accidents involving my teeth when younger, then did braces in my 20's, then had a genioplasty or chin augmentation to correct a receded chin that resulted from the braces and then about 5 yrs later my front teeth just loosened up and several dentist said they needed to be removed so I went to implants - 3 upper and 3 lower with anterior bridges. I was fine for 7 years - although things may have started at that point and I just didn't connect it to my teeth. Around 1999 - 2000 one of the bridges broke and my then perio sent me to a different dentist (prosthodontist) to have it replaced and that's when my problems began, first as facial fatigue and some lip twitching and jaw neurolagia and pain on one upper canine when I closed my mouth and then I started to clench and snore and have bouts of sleep apnea. The replacement bridges seemed bigger, heavier and were logner to close what that prostho said was an anteriorly open bite. He kept insisting I would get used to all the things I complained about and at one point I demanded he just take them off and put my old broken brdiges back on (I keep everything I pay for) and he refused. One week after my last visit with him in 2004 I "snapped" while trying to sleep - I thought it was a yawn but it was more forceful - and by the next morning I was in a tailspin - pain, spasms, etc. Whatever happened affected my cranial plates and c-spine and my body began to torque sideways - not to mention I had non-stop tongue spasms where my tongue would constantly rotate around my back teeth involuntarily and uncontrolably.

    I went to several dentists and not knowing much about tmj at the time allowed one so called specialist to due bite equilibration - things got worse and then he insisted my back teeth needed to be crowned - and still know improvement and he couldn't understand why. I searched again and was referred by severl other drs to a bio-aestheitc dentist - he tried several sets of temp teeth but after 18 mos again o change. So I then went to a neuromuscular dentist and he felt the implants were causing my problem so I had them removed and he tried several over dentures to wear over my filed down teeth and act as partials for the missing anterior teeth but again no improvement. Then a member here referred me to my current dentist and I have been with him for 2 years now - and on my 3rd set of over dentures with him. Along this journey I have done chiro, PT, trigger point injections, cranial sacral therapy, acupuntcure, etc - and I think my current chiro has probably done the most for me in terms of easing my body pain, torqueing, etc. My current dentist is a holistic one trained in FJO - probably the first dr that didn't scratch is head and say I was crazy when i listed all my symptoms - he just took one look at me and said - we are going to figure this thing out, don't worry. He is very knowledgeable and patient and caring - so I like him very much but it concerns me that he hasn't been able to get anything to fit in my mouth. I am basically living with no front teeth at this point and my back teeth have been filed down - so I have no bite at this point. So I was thinking of consulting with a new LVI dentist that recently opened a practice in my area.

    I do have the models of my teeth taken before any equilibration was done and the last 3 dentists did try using them to recreate my bite and I have no clue as to why that does not work but in all 3 attempts I could not close my mouth - my thinking is that copying process somehow enlargens the teeth or makes them more bulkier but was told there is a way the lab can adjust for this - although they would look a lot like my teeth - I think certain assumptions may be made when they are being made that are wrong for me. And I have every film and xray (mri, ct scan, icat, panagram, etc).

    My jaw does move toward one side more - this is where my problem tends to be. My right side seems more like the jaw line faces straight forward and the left side has an angularity to it as if it is further out toward the ear near the lower jaw and then angles inward - so it kind of feels like the upper jaw on the left side crosses over the lower jaw beneath it - but on the right side the upper jaw feels like it is exactly aligned over the lower jaw - yet that is the side that pops and grinds. The left side just aches and throbs constantly. Both my eyes hurt and I have the furrow lines at the bridge of my nose as if I am squinting all the time - I just thought they were due to the chronic pain. I find when I open my mouth wide - this first of all gives me the most relief - secondly my lower jaw feels like the left side goes further down than the right side and the upper left goes further up than the upper right as well - my thought was that this means I have lost more vertical dimension on the left side than the right side.

    Let me know what you think of the dentist you are going to see - I always keep my eyes and ears open when someone finds someone that helps them, just in case. I had looked into Dr Ira Klemmons in NJ but several here were not impressed with him based on their consults and/or treatments.

    LTC - I have overdentures again supposedly designed to act as splints. But again back to the uneven floor analogy - I think what is happening is b/c my teeth were not filed equally some teeth are being more impacted by the splint/overdenture than others - so its not correcting the imbalance just adding to it. My thought is if he cut the center of the OD/splints out so that the denture would still sit on either side of the gums and my back teeth could surface or be exposed through it, this would allow the over denture to glide past these teeth when inserted and then maybe he would see that the front teeth of the OD is not where they should be - the splint would need to be filed off in the back to allow the front teeth to go where they belong - once my upper and lower teeth are aligned - with them somewhat meeting or at least closer than where they are now - he would then be able to determine how much splint each tooth requires in the back - it will probably be different for each since they were not filed uniformly. Its probably another quacky idea of mine that he will say will not work.

    Do you need a laugh - my sis and her hubby came over today (we made cookies) and my OD/splints were sitting on the table, perfectly aligned and looking pretty - and my BIL said - hey you got your teeth! So I made a face and he said "what no good?" So I shook my head no and he said "Can I try them on - they look better than mine". I had totally forgotten I had left them on the table - I was so embarrassed - but at this point b/c they see me all the time with no teeth it really shouldn't bother me - so I just had to laugh too. Never thought I would live to see the day where I would shrug my shoulders over things like this - when I first got my fixed bridges way back when I didn't want anyone to know even had them.

     
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