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    Old 04-01-2001, 12:57 AM   #31
    richardthelionhearted
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    TUP: You haven't discussed smoking with any old doctors have you? I assure you that the majority of doctors advised against smoking since long before 1946. One of the kings of England (hardly a health authority, but certainly an auspicious enough public figure) warned against the health hazzards of smoking in the early 1600's. One of the tobacco industries' major legal defenses (in the 1970's) against lawsuits was that "everyone knows the hazards of smoking" and people do it anyway.

    If you can show "studies" showing high fat diets to be good for you, fine. Just remember it was you that started out along the line of reasoning that you can't trust the medical establishment (I.E. "studies").

    Decide for yourself. Far be it from me to tell you what it healthy to eat. But don't suggest to the forum that the medical community in general, or even a large portion of the medical community believes that high fat/low carb Atkins style diets are healthy. And remember that there are lots and lots of "Dr.s" who claim to be able to cure cancer, diabetes, epilepsy and etc. with all kinds of "alternative treatments". They have made these claims for years, but they just can't seem to get published in the N.E.J.M.

    Oh well. Probably a conspiracy.

     
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    Old 04-01-2001, 01:09 AM   #32
    richardthelionhearted
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    One other thing; I don't believe humans ever ate the way Atkins suggested.

    I have had this discussion with Arkie (if you care to go into detail you might start by checking over the old posts), humans are omnivores, and ominovores diets tend toward carbohydrates over protein.

    Even before the advent of agriculture the alleged and elusive "caveman" would have eaten a diet similar to modern omnivores diets, I.e heavily weighted on carbs. Digging up tubers, collecting hickory nuts, pecans and various fruits, and raiding bees nests is a lot more safe and reliable method of food gathering than clubbing dinosaurs.

    Even Arkie's long lived (and skinny due to the saturated fat!) polynesians ate a lot more coconuts, mango's and papayas than fish.

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 03:46 AM   #33
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Richard, the only statement that I agree with in your previous post is that humans are omnivores. Based on my research, everything else you mentioned is not correct. I could post the studies/books/papers, but you mentioned in previous posts that you didn't want to go there and get into a ******* contest. And since you didn't cite any references, I guess that I won't either.

    The studies I have seen on early man's diet show anywhere from 35% animal / 65% vegetable to 65% animal / 35% vegetable. The studies that show the higher percentage of animal tend to be more well thought out, have more evidence to support their position, and just make more sense in my opinion. It is the consumption of meat and fat that allowed mans brain to develop to where it is today.

    No matter which % animal/vegetable you go with, what kinds of vegetables or carbohydrates did early man eat? I'll bet they didn't resemble anything like you find at the local grocery store today. Everything from potatoes to apples has been hybridized to increase size, sugar, and starch and reduce fiber content. And those grains that form the staple of our diets today and the ones I have been harping on reducing in our diet would have contributed little if any to early mans diet. Picture yourself outside right now where you live prior to any human development. What would you eat? I haven't seen any wild taters growing around here. All the acorns and nuts are long gone now. Not much green yet to eat. No fruit yet either. Hmmm. What is that 4 legged critter over there? Wonder if I could hit with this long sharp stick I have in my hand? Hell, I'd probably starve to death where I'm at and I'm in a better position than most where I live (50 wooded acres on the Arkansas River adjoining a 1000 acre wildlife management area).

    And have you ever seen a wild beehive? I've seen one in my 25 or so years of hunting and I guarantee that you couldn't have gotten me anywhere near that damned swarm of bees. It was huge. I would have been just as successful at killing a dinosaur as getting any honey out of that tree. A bear might fare a little better with his thick coat, but my tender skin is no match for a thousand or so bee stings.

    Most fruits and vegetables are only available in the summer and fall. The times that early man did eat these, they probably did help him to put on a few pounds of fat to help get him through the lean winter to come. I believe that sugars and starches in the diet send the body a signal that it is time to start storing fat for the lean winter to come, but that lean winter never comes anymore with the grocery store nearby.

    And if the early islanders were overweight, which I doubt most were, I'll bet it was due to the excess consumption of those sugary fruits, not the high protein, high fat coconuts or fatty fish.

    Just wanted to get my $0.02 in there.

    Alan<p>[This message has been edited by arkie6 (edited 04-01-2001).]

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 10:43 AM   #34
    LifeLine
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    I see everyone is still on a rampage here with the debate. Good to see freedom of speech at work.

    Arkie, I've got one for ya'. Did you ever think that because you had "40 lbs." to lose that no matter what means was credited to your loss that "IT" would be the savior of all overweight people?

    If you would have strictly done the Slim Fast diet (low total calorie) and lost weight (like many others have claimed), you'd now be spouting off how great "IT" was and you'd be posting pictures of yourself holding a canned shake as the poster child for Slim Fast.

    How about the millions of other diets that people have lost on and "swear by." Are they wrong?

    Take all this from someone who has never "had" to lose weight, and eats high carb.

    Oh, and when exactly DOES exercise start to play a role with you people as it pertains to health, fitness, and weight loss? Because in the thousands of posts here from all you Guru's, I can't recall EVER hearing it. Just wondering.

    If you are in fact using exercise along with your diet, how can that not be a HUGE contributing factor to your wt.loss; and if so, why are you NOT sharing this information or putting emphasis on it for others to read?

    One more thing, I think your crossing the line when you start giving advice in other "topics" on this board with people that have 'serious health problems' (besides just being overweight), and "advising" them that their current evil nutritional ways may be the cause, and that your miracle diet change might be the answer to their condition. I wouldn't go there.<p>[This message has been edited by LifeLine (edited 04-01-2001).]

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 12:23 PM   #35
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LifeLine:
    <B>If you are in fact using exercise along with your diet, how can that not be a HUGE contributing factor to your wt.loss; and if so, why are you NOT sharing this information or putting emphasis on it for others to read?
    </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I didn't mention exercise because I rarely do it, at least anything structured. I do resistance training (pushups, pullups, crunches, curls, etc) maybe 3 times a week for 10-15 minutes max. That's it. For me, the biggest factor in losing weight has been the low carb diet. I did the low cal diet and jogged 30-45 minutes every day after work for 4-6 months before I discovered low carb. I lost maybe 5 lbs or so but I was hungry all the time. I couldn't hang with it. I've got to eat. That's where the low carb diet works so well. I'm never hungry anymore.

    And Lifeline, if you are fortunate enough to be able to eat all of those carbs and not gain weight, count yourself as lucky. I've had a weight problem all of my life. I was the biggest kid in my class from kindergarten till about the 10th grade. I'm now 6'0" tall and 180 pounds and feel great. Can't wait to go to my 20th reunion and show off a little. This after nearly 3 years of following low carbohydrate nutrition. This works for me (and several people at work swear by it also). If you've found something that works for you such as what the USDA recommends, then by all means, stick with it. But for those folks that do try to follow the government recommendations and still can't lose weight or improve their health, I'm proposing an alternative that gets results for many and is healthy. I've yet to see an evidence otherwise. My results certainly bear that out.

    Alan<p>[This message has been edited by arkie6 (edited 04-01-2001).]

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 03:49 PM   #36
    Di
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    I think that everyone needs to be careful with the thinking that the ends justifies the means. Alan, seriously, you can't mean that if something "works" for someone than more power to them, go ahead and do it? I mean, laxatives work for weight loss a heck of a lot better than Atkins OR Food Pyramids, but it isn't good for a person. Neither is vomiting, or starving oneself, but both of those methods will indeed lead to weight loss. Just wanted to point out, the results aren't always the only gauge here.

    God Bless!

    Love, Di <IMG SRC="http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif">

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 07:50 PM   #37
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Di:
    <B>Just wanted to point out, the results aren't always the only gauge here.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Then what do you use to measure success by, if not results? I've lost unnecessary fat, lowered and improved my lipids, lowered my bloodpressure, and improved my overall well being on this low carb diet. Not only have I had success, but I have been able to maintain this for over 2 years and see no reason I can't continue to maintain for the rest of my life. And my open-minded and well read doctor concurs with this approach. So Di, what is your basis for thinking that what I am doing is wrong?

    And I would never in a million years recommend laxatives, vomiting, or starving for weight loss. These methods are not healthy and do not address the root cause of the problem. Please don't insinuate otherwise.

    Alan
    <p>[This message has been edited by arkie6 (edited 04-01-2001).]

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 09:28 PM   #38
    Di
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Alan,

    Where did I say that what you are doing is wrong? That is for you to decide, not me.

    I am relieved to see that you wouldn't be a fan of the vomiting or laxative weight loss plans. You had me a bit worried with your earlier posting!

    God Bless You!

    Love, Di <IMG SRC="http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif">

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 10:29 PM   #39
    tundra
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    I must admit, I'm somewhat intrigued by this as I also battled the bulge all of my life. Back in 1985, I managed to loose 40#, and get down to what is an ideal for my frame. I kept the weight off with a sensible, but high carb diet, combined with 4-5 mi. of jogging, and two hours of free weights and aerobics 6 nights per week. A formidable challenge granted, but it worked for me---until last year (April 1, in fact) when I gave up a 27 year smoking habit. At that point, something changed. Quitting wasn't hard at all, and as I've been disciplined about food all these years, nothing about my diet or excercise habits had changed. I still put on 20+ almost overnight. I figured in time I would get back to normal, and shed the #'s with no prob. this hasn't been the case. I was put on a 1100-1200 cal a day diet, mostly carbs, with extra supplements. I have been doing that along with my regular excercise for the last 1-1/2 months and actually gained a pound. Now they have me getting thyroid tests next week as I should be having trouble keeping weight ON with that schedule. Im not convinced it's a thyroid problem, and suspect my metabolism has been screwed up from so many years of abuse. Alan, I'd like to know if you know anyone in my age group (43) this works for. Things start to change as you get into the fourties! All I know for certain is a hi-carb, lo-cal, knock yerself out with 3 hour workouts schedule isn't working! Very frustrating, and I don't seem to be able to find any difinitive answers.

     
    Old 04-01-2001, 11:28 PM   #40
    richardthelionhearted
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Arkie: O.k. I don't agree with most of your postings either. I guess that makes it "even". 90% or more of the medical community agrees with me, you have your "studies". Good enough. We can agree to disagree.

    Yes I have seen a wild beehive. I know of a bee tree within a couple miles of where I live, have stood within 50 feet of it and observed the comings and goings of the bees, and if I were hungry enough I would go smoke them out, just like humans have been doing for many many thousands of years.
    That's not supposition, my friend, that is history. And the "cavemen" who raided bees nests were smart enough to plaster themselves with mud first.

    Different crops produce at different times of year. Wild berries and plums in May, wild persimmons and many other fruits throughout the fall, tubers produce year round. Acorns and various nuts tend to produce in the fall but will store until the following summer.

    I'll give it to you though, there are examples of tribes of people who subsisted almost entirely on meat. The Eskimo's and Innuits. Ironically enough, two of the groups of indiginous people's who were known for being the fattest, probably because that was the only way they could survive the winter.

    Tup: I believe the Neanderthals ate more carbs than meat. I'm not familiar with cro magnums, but I thing the cro-magnons also ate a good deal of carbohydrates. As I've said before, only time will tell which diet is better. good luck on making it to 104

     
    Old 04-02-2001, 09:55 AM   #41
    babygirl
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Arkie6,

    Earlier when I stated the statement about flour, I know that flour is processed and a lot of other things have to be processed somewhat for them to be edible (wheat, barley, etc). I was simply referring to bleached flour. The less processed it is or has to be, the better for you. Even the Atkins diet prohibits the use of bleaced flour or white bread.

    And for sugar, you can't tell me that processed white refined sugar is good for you. The Atkins diet also discusses not eating refined white sugar. Eating natural sweetners are better for your body because your body doesn't have to work as hard to break down natural sweetners as well as other natural foods. I'm not saying to consume them in mass quantites but in moderation. Don't you know that what the body can't process is stored in the body, resulting in the cause of many common problems we have today, high blood pressure, gallstones, calcium deposits, kidney stones, lactose intolerance. You cannot tell me that eating processed refined sugar or highly processed foods are good.

    There are tons of foods that you shouldn't eat because the body can't handle it. Our bodies weren't meant to handle highly processed foods its just common sense. I am not discounting the Atkins diet but I just don't see how it is healthy to eat artery clogging foods? You may not see the results of what eating tons of cheese, eggs, bacon, steak etc. can do to your heart now, but it will catch up to you. I'm not saying you can't eat a low carb diet, but what's wrong with eating fewer carbs and eating more protein like chicken, nuts, or fish and non-prcessed food and on occassion red meat.

    It is a fact that you can lose weight on this diet because I did the diet and lost 15lbs. in three weeks. But it made me so constipated and with stomache pains I couldn't adopt it as a permanent way of life. Just because you lose weight doesn't mean it is healthy for you. Yes you have lost weight but do you really think it is healthy to consume tons of meat and fatty foods?

    What is best is to eat healthy first and exercise then incorporate some sort of diet if need be. The root of the problem is America's fixation on fast foods and processed foods once you realize that is the problem and start slowly changing your eating habits your on your way to a healthier lifestyle.

     
    Old 04-02-2001, 11:40 AM   #42
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    I find it sad that Di is being attacked by bringing information to this board. I think she is doing just that, contributing information.

    I too work in a "hospital", in the operating room actually. And I have many friends who are eating low carb diets, including myself. One in particular is not doing it for weight loss but because she was diagnosed as being insulin resistent, a precusor to diabetes, if not taken control of. I know your brain needs at least 150 g. of carbs a day to function. If you get at least that much you will not have the side effects of being tired and grouchy. Most people eat far more than just 150 g.

    I think regardless of the low carb plan you use, if it works for you then great stick with it. I know people who have used the Atkin's diet and have lost a tremendous amount of weight. I know that when I tried it it didnt' work for me and the zone didn't work for me either. I devised my own eating plan. I eat 50 percent carbs in the form of veggies, fruit, and whole grains. And 30 percent lean protein, and 10 percent monosaturated fats. I try to maintain a daily caloric intake of 1600 calories during weight loss and 2100 when I am trying to maintain. I do 4 days of lifting a week, 6 days of cardio and 6 days of abs. This has worked for me. I think regardless of how you do it, as long as it works, great. After all which is healthier to be fat or become thin and then fine turn your body. After all, even in the Atkins diet, in the end, we all end up eating a similarily balanced diet anyway, the Atkins gets a bad rap because so many people focus on the first 2 weeks, where you eat high fats and protiens. Who cares how you do it. As long as you "do it"

    Also regarding not wanting to listen to the advice of a person working in a traditional healthcare setting....I read in Self magazine that most healthcare staff, prefer alternative medical practices than traditional ones. It seems that an MD will do what s/he can for you, but if you ask their opinion on alternative medicine they will generally tell you that it is out of there scope of practice, however, they have no reservations about you trying natropathic medicines. With all the studies being presented MD's are no longer dismissing the fact that alternative medicines are "hookey" and are not beneficial. Its just the opposite.

    I hope that I do not receive the same beration as Di has indured. This, again, is an opinion.

    GWG

     
    Old 04-02-2001, 11:41 AM   #43
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    I find it sad that Di is being attacked by bringing information to this board. I think she is doing just that, contributing information.

    I too work in a "hospital", in the operating room actually. And I have many friends who are eating low carb diets, including myself. One in particular is not doing it for weight loss but because she was diagnosed as being insulin resistent, a precusor to diabetes, if not taken control of. I know your brain needs at least 150 g. of carbs a day to function. If you get at least that much you will not have the side effects of being tired and grouchy. Most people eat far more than just 150 g.

    I think regardless of the low carb plan you use, if it works for you then great stick with it. I know people who have used the Atkin's diet and have lost a tremendous amount of weight. I know that when I tried it it didnt' work for me and the zone didn't work for me either. I devised my own eating plan. I eat 50 percent carbs in the form of veggies, fruit, and whole grains. And 30 percent lean protein, and 10 percent monosaturated fats. I try to maintain a daily caloric intake of 1600 calories during weight loss and 2100 when I am trying to maintain. I do 4 days of lifting a week, 6 days of cardio and 6 days of abs. This has worked for me. I think regardless of how you do it, as long as it works, great. After all which is healthier to be fat or become thin and then fine turn your body. After all, even in the Atkins diet, in the end, we all end up eating a similarily balanced diet anyway, the Atkins gets a bad rap because so many people focus on the first 2 weeks, where you eat high fats and protiens. Who cares how you do it. As long as you "do it"

    Also regarding not wanting to listen to the advice of a person working in a traditional healthcare setting....I read in Self magazine that most healthcare staff, prefer alternative medical practices than traditional ones. It seems that an MD will do what s/he can for you, but if you ask their opinion on alternative medicine they will generally tell you that it is out of there scope of practice, however, they have no reservations about you trying natropathic medicines. With all the studies being presented MD's are no longer dismissing the fact that alternative medicines are "hookey" and are not beneficial. Its just the opposite.

    I hope that I do not receive the same beration as Di has indured. This, again, is an opinion.

    GWG

     
    Old 04-02-2001, 10:35 PM   #44
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by babygirl:
    <B>Arkie6,

    And for sugar, you can't tell me that processed white refined sugar is good for you. The Atkins diet also discusses not eating refined white sugar. Eating natural sweetners are better for your body because your body doesn't have to work as hard to break down natural sweetners as well as other natural foods. I'm not saying to consume them in mass quantites but in moderation. Don't you know that what the body can't process is stored in the body, resulting in the cause of many common problems we have today, high blood pressure, gallstones, calcium deposits, kidney stones, lactose intolerance. You cannot tell me that eating processed refined sugar or highly processed foods are good.
    </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I either didn't express myself correctly earlier or you misunderstood, but what I meant to say was ALL forms of sugar are harmful. Pure cane sugar is bad for you. Honey is bad for you. Both are digested just as easily as the other. Both raise bloodsugar significantly and hence raise insulin levels significantly, which is the most harmful thing you can do to your arteries.

    Alan

    <p>[This message has been edited by arkie6 (edited 04-03-2001).]

     
    Old 04-03-2001, 01:51 AM   #45
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GrlWithGoals:
    <B>I know your brain needs at least 150 g. of carbs a day to function. If you get at least that much you will not have the side effects of being tired and grouchy. Most people eat far more than just 150 g.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    GrlWithGoals,

    I'm not here to attack anyone. But when I see incorrect information posted like that statement above, I feel an obligation to address it. The brain can burn glucose from carbohydrates, but it can also burn glucose from protein or burn ketones which are byproducts of fat metabolism. And no, the low carbohydrate diet ketosis is different than the harmful ketoacidosis in diabetics where the body spills both ketones and glucose into the urine due to inadequate insulin. In fact, Johns Hopkins and many other hospitals have treatment programs for epileptic children where they keep them in ketosis for long periods of time to control seizures. To be in ketosis, you must eat very low levels of carbohydrate, typically less than 20-30 grams per day. The ketogenic diet must also be high in fat and low to moderate in protein because the body can convert up to approximately 50% of the protein you eat into glucose. And these treatments are successful with no ill effects unlike most medication.

    There was a study done in the 1920's where two researchers were admitted into a hospital in a controlled study where they ate a diet of only meat for over one year with no ill effects (no carbohydrates in meat). In fact they came out in better shape than when they went in. The researcher was Stefansson and the study was called "The Bellvue Ward Study".

    It's the same with the information that Di posted in the first post it this topic. She was just asking for a rebuttal by the title of the topic. The majority of the harmful effects attributed to low carb diets that the article mentioned just ain't so and aren't supported by the available scientific research. If I don't bring these errors to light then I feel like I am agreeing with them by not speaking out.

    If you don't want to feel like you are being attacked, then make sure what you post is factual. Or at least state that it is your opinion if you don't know for sure or have anything to support your statements.

    I've been posting on these boards for a long time, even before they went to this new BB format - just take a look at the old site message board for Alan S. There are a lot of people here that agree with me and many that do not. That's life.

    Cheers to good health.

    Alan

     
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