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    Old 04-03-2001, 11:47 AM   #46
    Di
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by arkie6:

    It's the same with the information that Di posted in the first post it this topic. She was just asking for a rebuttal by the title of the topic. The majority of the harmful effects attributed to low carb diets that the article mentioned just ain't so and aren't supported by the available scientific research. If I don't bring these errors to light then I feel like I am agreeing with them by not speaking out.

    If you don't want to feel like you are being attacked, then make sure what you post is factual. Or at least state that it is your opinion if you don't know for sure or have anything to support your statements.

    Alan,

    PLEASE read my postings before you start saying that what I have posted is NOT FACTUAL. I did not pick out the title of the article, as you stated, I used the title that the doctor used. Secondly, it is not simply my opinion. I did indeed post the doctors name and creditials. READ, READ, READ before you post incorrect things...PLEASE! That is why I posted the doctor's name and info, to avoid folks like YOU saying that this is just one posters opinion. I'm not a doctor, but the man that wrote this is. And yes, I am aware that other doctors hold different views, I'm just saying that it seems like the MAJORITY hold this view.

    I thought you were better than these low attacks Alan...really.

    God Bless.

    Love, Di

     
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    Old 04-03-2001, 11:16 PM   #47
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Di:
    <B>Alan,

    PLEASE read my postings before you start saying that what I have posted is NOT FACTUAL. I did not pick out the title of the article, as you stated, I used the title that the doctor used. Secondly, it is not simply my opinion. I did indeed post the doctors name and creditials. READ, READ, READ before you post incorrect things...PLEASE! That is why I posted the doctor's name and info, to avoid folks like YOU saying that this is just one posters opinion. I'm not a doctor, but the man that wrote this is. And yes, I am aware that other doctors hold different views, I'm just saying that it seems like the MAJORITY hold this view.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Di, sorry about my previous post. I was a little harsh in it. I had just gotten off a 13 hour shift at work and was a little tired and irritable. I guess I get a little defensive about this because it seems like the diet, and hence my views, are constantly being attacked. I get about the same look from people when I tell them I am on this low carb diet as when I tell them I work at a nuclear power plant. It's always "Oh, that sounds dangerous".

    Regarding a doctors credentials and such. That doesn't carry much weight with me because his views can be biased just as easily as a layman. Dr. Atkins is a cardiologist - been one for over 30 years. I would say that is pretty good credentials regarding his recommendations that the low carb diet is healthy. But I don't for a minute forget that his views are biased towards that particular way of eating, especially since he has a financial interest in it. What does carry the most weight with me is scientifically based, peer reviewed research like that published in reputable journals and such. And like I've said many times, the peer reveiwed published research that I have found has not shown a low carb diet like Atkins to be detrimental to health. In fact, what I do find shows health benefits from a reduction in sugars and starches and other refined carbohydrates in the diet. Precisely what Dr. Atkins and other low carbers recommend.

    Peace.

    Alan

     
    Old 04-03-2001, 11:25 PM   #48
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    babygirl,

    We will just have to agree to disagree on the sugar thing. IMHO, sugar is bad for you in any form. While honey may be have a few benefits, the detrimental effects of elevated glucose and insulin far outweigh any possible benefits.

    If you want vitamins, minerals, and anti-oxidents, then I recommend you eat fresh low-sugar,low-starch vegetables and fruits. These have much higher concentrations of the beneficial vitamins, minerals, and antioxidants and far less harmful sugar than honey or any other type of sugar.

    Alan

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 03:34 AM   #49
    richardthelionhearted
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Di: Don't let it get you down. Most of the readers on the board don't neccesarily post on any given topic, but people in general usually have enough common sense to sort out the baloney from the sound nutritional advice. The people who are "true believers" in Atkins won't change their minds (you might as well go to the airport and argue with the moonies), but don't take it too personal. Remember, it's their body, their heart, arteries, kidneys and liver, if they want to drink bacon grease instead of O.J., it's no skin off your nose. Good luck with your diet!!

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 08:17 AM   #50
    babygirl
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Alan,

    Yes we just have to agree to disagree. I know that sugar is not good for you. What I said was if your going to consume it its better to go natural and the benefits of eating natural sweeteners outweigh eating artificial or white refined sugar which have no benefits. Half the foods we eat have sugar in them.

    It's funny how you are against sugars but not against artery clogging foods filled with saturated fats. <IMG SRC="http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif">

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 08:39 AM   #51
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by babygirl:
    <B>Alan,
    It's funny how you are against sugars but not against artery clogging foods filled with saturated fats.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    It's not the saturated fats that clog your arteries (arteriosclerosis). Arterial plaque is initiated when the walls of the arteries are damaged by the high insulin levels from diets high in sugars and starches. And analysis of arterial plaque shows it to be greater than 75% polyunsaturated fat, like that found in your seed oils and hydrogenated vegetable oils. These are the things that clog your arteries. Heart disease was virtually non-existant prior to the earlier 1900's when most people ate large amounts of saturated animal fats (lard, butter, whole milk, etc.). And this was also prior to the introduction of highly processed vegetable oils. Think people.

    Alan

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 09:14 AM   #52
    Di
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Alan,

    Thanks for the kind post. No harm done. We both get a bit snippy at times. I'm sorry too.

    But you know...my excuse could be PMS...what's yours??? Hmmmm???? (just teasing ya! hee hee!!) <IMG SRC="http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/biggrin.gif">

    God Bless You!

    Love, Di <IMG SRC="http://www.healthboards.com/ubb/smile.gif">

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 09:22 AM   #53
    babygirl
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Alan,

    Why did you say "unlike most papers written that claim low carb nutrition is not healthy." Are you saying that these papers are not supported by scientific evidence. I beg to differ. I have read articles that have scientific evidence about low carb diets. Also I never said that saturated fats caused heart disease, I said they were bad for your body. Eating foods high in fat can cause many other diseases and problems.

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 08:15 PM   #54
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by babygirl:
    <B>Alan,

    Why did you say "unlike most papers written that claim low carb nutrition is not healthy." Are you saying that these papers are not supported by scientific evidence. I beg to differ. I have read articles that have scientific evidence about low carb diets. Also I never said that saturated fats caused heart disease, I said they were bad for your body. Eating foods high in fat can cause many other diseases and problems. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Can you cite some examples of these scientific evidence? I've been looking, really, but have not found it. And eating foods high in fat can cause many other diseases and problems? Like what?

    Alan

     
    Old 04-04-2001, 11:14 PM   #55
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ariadne:
    <B>Alan, you wanted to know what other diseases a high saturated fat diet causes? I quote directly from the above site

    "The fats that travel around in our bloodstream have an ability to turn into troublesome compounds. When fats combines with oxygen in the wrong place at the wrong time, they can turn into compounds known as free radicals. These compounds tend to combine with whatever is nearby, turning that compound into a free radical as well. The result is a chain reaction that can end up damaging the lining of the blood vessel, the first step down the road to heart disease and an eventual heart attack. A prudent nutritional defense strategy has, as its foundation, a high-fiber, low-fat plant-based diet that includes a hefty supply of antioxidant nutrients."</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Did you notice in that quote above that it doesn't mention what type of fat they are talking about with regard to free radical formation. Wonder why? It's not the saturated fats that form free radicals, but the highly polyunsaturated vegetable oils that I have been recommending that people avoid. Saturated = stable. Saturated fat has all of its available chemical bonds occupied (i.e. saturated) and there is no where for oxygen to attack it. Polyunsturated vegetable oils on the other hand have numerous chemical bonds open where oxygen can attack it and form lipid oxides and those nasty free radicals. That is why vegetable oils will go rancid in time (saturated fats will not) and why processors add Vitamin E to vegetable oils. The vitamin E scavenges the free radicals formed during the oxidation process. Note that few if any fats are all saturated or all unsaturated. Lard for example is typically on 47% saturated with the remainder for the most part being monounsaturated fat. Monounsaturated fat like that in nuts and olive oil is better than polyunsaturated fat in corn or soybean oil because it is closer to a saturated fat with only one chemical bond not being saturated.

    I stand by my assertion that saturated fats are not harmful.

    Alan

     
    Old 04-05-2001, 12:34 AM   #56
    Ariadne
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    This is an explanation of the chemical structure of Fats from the Latrobe University in Australia. It is quite technical, but there is a statement at the bottom which outlines the diets of early humans, which has also been a subject of debate here. I thought it was interesting.

    Fats
    The lipids are the waxy, greasy, and oily compounds of the body. They repel water, and this hydrophobic nature is used as a tool for a variety of purposes. Some lipids - the fats - are important fuels, and their coalescence into nearly anhydrous droplets creates a reserve of potential energy that is a much lighter burden to carry than an equal reserve of waterlogged carbohydrate. Other lipids are used as major structural components as in the membranes that separate cells within tissues and organelles within cells.

    Lipids are all characterized by the fact that they contain fatty acids. Most naturally occurring fatty acids are comprised of linear hydrocarbon chains from 2 to more than 80 carbon atoms in length, with those occurring most commonly having 16, 18, 20 or 22. However, they all have an organic acid group at one end (-COOH) and a methyl group at the other.

    The various classes of lipid are as follows:

    Triacylglycerols: also known as triglycerides or neutral fats. They are made up from a molecule of glycerol (a modified simple sugar) plus three fatty acid chains. The result is an E-shaped molecule. The glycerol backbone is the same in all triacylglycerols, but the fatty acid chains vary. The result is often large molecules which must be broken down into their constituents before they can be absorbed. Triacylglycerols are the body's most concentrated source of usable energy fuel and when they are oxidized, they yield large amounts of energy.

    Deposits of triacylglycerols are found mainly beneath the skin where they insulate the deeper body tissues from heat loss and protect them from physical trauma. Women are usually better English Channel swimmers than men; this is due partly to their thicker subcutaneous fatty layer, which helps to insulate against the cold water of the channel.

    The length of the fatty acid chains and their degree of saturation determine how solid a triacylglycerol is at a given temperature. Fatty acid chains with only single covalent bonds between the carbons are referred to as saturated, while those with one or more double bonds between carbon atoms are said to be unsaturated (monounsaturated or polyunsaturated respectively). Triacylglycerols with short fatty acid chains and/or unsaturated fatty acids are liquid at room temperature and are typical of plant lipids. We are familiar with these unsaturated fats as oils used for cooking. Olive and peanut oils are rich in monounsaturated fats. Longer fatty acid chains and/or more saturated fatty acids are common in animal fats such as butter and the fat of meats, which are solid at room temperature.

    Glycolipids: are fatty acids in combination with sugars. They are associated with cell surfaces and cell membranes where they are important in signaling between cells.

    Phospholipids: contain fatty acids chemically linked with glycerol and phosphorus. They are the most important structural components of cell membranes and are also the precursors of the eicosanoids which are potent controllers of many physiological processes.

    Sphingolipids: are important components of brain tissue and the central nervous system of animals.

    Sterol esters: are sterols combined with fatty acids. Cholesterol, the principle human sterol, has a structural role in cell membranes, is a precursor of steroid hormones and Vitamin D and of various fat emulsifying agents in bile.

    Fatty Acids
    More than 40 different fatty acids occur in nature and many others are produced during processing of fats in the manufacture of various foods such as margarine. The common name of the fatty acids was based on the source of the original discovery. Thus, palmitic, lauric and myristic acids were first isolated from plants of the Palmae, Lauraceae and Myristiceae families respectively. However, there is a more useful shorthand used in the naming of fatty acids. The length of the carbon chain is given by the number before the colon and the number of unsaturated bonds is given after the colon. The position of the double bonds is given by a delta symbol (D ) and a number counting from the acid end of the molecule. In the third system of naming fatty acids the position of the double bonds is described in relation to the methyl end , which is counted as carbon 1 or n-1.

    Naturally occurring fatty acids fall into three main groups or families, the n-3, the n-6 and the n-9 acids. Animals, including humans are unable to synthesize the n-3 and the n-6 polyunsaturated fatty acids with chain lengths of more than 18 carbons. As these are required for vital functions in the body, they are called the essential fatty acids. Monounsaturated and saturated acids can be manufactured by all mammalian cells using dietary carbohydrate, protein or fat as the starting material.

    Biological roles of fatty acids
    Membrane fluidity and structure: unsaturated fatty acids

    Precursors of eicosanoids: Eicosanoids are 20 carbon derivatives of essential fatty acids which are released by tissues in very small quantities where they act locally. They are highly potent and produce a range of effects with the different eicosanoids often acting in opposition to each other. The most physiologically active eicosanoids are the prostaglandins, prostacyclins and thromboxanes. They control effects such as smooth muscle contraction and blood platelet clotting and modulate inflammation and immune function.

    Diet can affect the levels of these eicosanoids. For example, the n-6 acids (e.g. linoleic, arachidonic) give rise to a thromboxane which promotes blood clotting whereas the n-3 acids (e.g. EPA and a -linolenic) give rise to a thromboxane which does not. Therefore the intake of foods rich in EPA such as deep sea fish, whale and seal meat will cause resistance to clotting which may lead to decreased incidence of coronary heart disease.

    Most diets provide enough essential fatty acids to meet metabolic needs (approx. 2g/day). The eicosanoids originating from n-3 and n-6 fatty acids compete for a common enzyme (cyclo-oxygenase) during their metabolic conversion to the physiologically active prostaglanins, prostacyclins and thromboxanes. It follows that large quantities of n-6 eicosanoids will swamp the cyclo-oxygenase and limit the conversion of n-3 eicosanoids if they are present in small amounts. Western diets are often rich in linoleic acid (n-6) from polyunsaturated margarines and other foods and the current advice is to eat more n-3 rich foods such as green leafy vegetables, legumes and fish (especially deep-sea fish). The recommended ratio of n-6 to n-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids is between 5:1 and 10:1.

    Dietary fatty acids that are not used for the synthesis of eicosanoids or incorporated into tissues are oxidized for energy. Excess dietary energy, whether consumed as fat, carbohydrate or protein, is stored in the form of triacylglycerols in specialized fat storage cells, called adipose tissue. This is because the body has only limited carbohydrate stores (glycogen in the liver and skeletal muscles) and protein synthesis is limited by strict metabolic controls. Therefore over consumption of food leads to an increase in body fat which is a very efficient way to store energy since the oxidative metabolism of triacylglycerols yields 37,7 kJ per gram, nearly twice as much as the same weight of carbohydrate or protein.

    Human Evolution and Dietary Fatty Acids
    Early hunter gatherers had a diet which contained plant foods with highly unsaturated lipids with large quantities of n-3 and n-6 acids with very little saturated lipid. Since wild animals also tend to be lean the early hominid hunters would have had a diet which was low in fat and relatively unsaturated in nature. Seafood then, as now, was rich in n-3 acids so that people living off the sea would similarly have had a diet low in saturated fats.

    The consumption of large amounts of saturated lipid from the fatty meat of domestic cattle, sheep, pigs and poultry and the use of saturated fats in processed food are thought to represent dietary changes for which we have not adapted leading the high incidence of diet related disease. Current guidelines are to increase the amounts of n-3 and n-6 fatty acids in the diet and to replace saturated lipid with monounsaturated lipid such as that found in olive oil.

    Fat Substitutes
    Simplesse: protein and carbohydrate mix which binds a lot of water and looks and feels like fat.

    Olestra: Sucrose ester of fatty acids. Not absorbed from the intestine.

    References:
    Wahlqvist,ML. Food and Nutrition, Chapter 22.

    McGilveryRW and Goldstein, GW. Biochemistry a functional approach. 3rd ed. 1983.

     
    Old 04-05-2001, 04:50 AM   #57
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Thanks for the post on fats Ariadne. Quite techinical though. I think I'll file it away for future reference.

    Regarding the fat that early man ate. The claims typically made that the meat from wild animals is very low in fat is most likely correct; however, the other parts of the animal are typically high in fat: internal organs, bone marrow, and brain for example. Unlike today where we eat the "choice" muscle tissue and let someone/something else deal with all those other yucky parts (usually rendered for other animal and pet food), early man would have utilized the whole animal, fat and all. The earliest humans probably started out as scanvengers of animals that larger carnivores had killed. After the carnivores had eaten their fill or all that they could get at, the hominoids, utilizing rocks and such would have been able to crack open the large bones and skull to get at the fatty marrow and brain. This high fat diet is what would have allowed our brains to evolve to a proportionally larger size. The percentage of fat that early man consumed could have been much higher than some estimates if all that is considered is the fat in the muscle tissue of wild animals vs. today's domestic animals.

    And regarding the ratios of essential fatty acids (EFA) Omega-6 to Omega-3, today's typical diet high in grains (and beef that has been fed grains) has this severly out of balance with N-6 / N-3 ratios of 20:1 or greater. Early man probably consumed these EFAs in a 1:1 to 4:1 ratio. I think we would all benefit by getting back to these lower ratios of N-6/N-3 fats. One way to do this is to eat fewer grains and eat meat that has been raised on grass, not fattened on grains, and eat more cold water fish high in Omega 3s.

    Alan

     
    Old 04-07-2001, 10:44 PM   #58
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    Re: Hazards of Low-Carb Diets

    Hmmmm, been lurking here, doing some reading as a help toward making up my own mind about low carb. Have a mild form of arthritis and perhaps fibromyalgia, high blood pressure, and it is time for the weightloss to begin again (after losing 40 lbs. last summer). Slimfast helped, I have to give it credit, though I had to do the work! Doing reading about fibromyalgia has led me to think that perhaps low carb would be the way to go...I tried it once several years ago, but didn't stay with it. I'm beginning to think that the insulin-hypoglycemic connection to weight gain and fat is a really important variable in this whole weight problem/tired/pain all the time life that I lead these days. Eating 'healthy' pasta, rice, even whole wheat breads sure hasn't helped! Suppose finding what works individually is the key.

     
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