Discussions that mention adderall

ADD / ADHD board


It has often been known in the past that many professionals in all sorts of fields have biased opinions in one way or another. As I said, professionals. Althought they are professionals, does not mean that their opinions are always correct. For example, many people opposed the Vietnam War, and demonstrated protests. Then again, these same people, of whom many if not pretty much all had never been to Vietnam and nor did they have a real sense of the purpose. Even further back, around the time of the 1400s-1492, it was known or assumed by many prominent leaders that the world was flat. It Columbus or others sailed it, they would die. Yet then again, a lack of proof. They had not been to the other side, it was just a way of proving to people how affective it could be to spread mass-hysteria or simple doubt. These doctors you named, where do they do research? A lot of these health professionals believe that since it is a controlled substance, it is automatically cocaine. But, the main reason it is a class 2 drug, is because of the wide use of it during the 60s. Dexedrine was a widely used weight loss drug, and people were often using several hundred milligrams a day. That is the real reason why the government moved it to this control group, not because of its deadly nature. Also, If you would like, Doctors such as Kevin R. Murphy, John J. Ratey, and Edward Hallowell describe in their works the safety of the drugs. THESE doctors have done research, and overseen research, and clearly know the effects, as opposed to many who saw in a magazine that some kid snorted adderall in a bar. Prominent cardiologists in the southeast such as Brian McGwier and Edward Robinson have also clarified that there is no deadly danger from the drugs to the heart. Doctors and other professionals can say and feel as they like, but if you browse medical research centers such as the University of Mass. Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, you will find that the doctors who are in favor of the safety are the ones who have actually done the research, and therefore the ones who actually know what they are talking about.
Quote from UARebel:
It has often been known in the past that many professionals in all sorts of fields have biased opinions in one way or another. As I said, professionals. Althought they are professionals, does not mean that their opinions are always correct. For example, many people opposed the Vietnam War, and demonstrated protests. Then again, these same people, of whom many if not pretty much all had never been to Vietnam and nor did they have a real sense of the purpose. Even further back, around the time of the 1400s-1492, it was known or assumed by many prominent leaders that the world was flat. It Columbus or others sailed it, they would die. Yet then again, a lack of proof. They had not been to the other side, it was just a way of proving to people how affective it could be to spread mass-hysteria or simple doubt. These doctors you named, where do they do research? A lot of these health professionals believe that since it is a controlled substance, it is automatically cocaine. But, the main reason it is a class 2 drug, is because of the wide use of it during the 60s. Dexedrine was a widely used weight loss drug, and people were often using several hundred milligrams a day. That is the real reason why the government moved it to this control group, not because of its deadly nature. Also, If you would like, Doctors such as Kevin R. Murphy, John J. Ratey, and Edward Hallowell describe in their works the safety of the drugs. THESE doctors have done research, and overseen research, and clearly know the effects, as opposed to many who saw in a magazine that some kid snorted adderall in a bar. Prominent cardiologists in the southeast such as Brian McGwier and Edward Robinson have also clarified that there is no deadly danger from the drugs to the heart. Doctors and other professionals can say and feel as they like, but if you browse medical research centers such as the University of Mass. Medical Center and Harvard Medical School, you will find that the doctors who are in favor of the safety are the ones who have actually done the research, and therefore the ones who actually know what they are talking about.


Dr. Peter Breggin, for example, always quotes research in his writings. Research for/against can be quoted till doomsday because there is always some on both sides. Needless to say, however, the majority of research (not all but most) is paid for by drug companies. I came across an internet application for research grants from Eli Lilly and I thought it was interesting how they noted on it that anyone applying should keep in mind the interests of the company....

This is not conspiracy theory.... right now there's a whole stink about the discovery of the unpublished clinical trials which showed unfavorable results of antidepressant therapy for children. This was recently all over the news if you missed it. The favorable ones got published in all those medical journals that doctors' you mentioned read up on. There would be no other type of research than this if it wasn't for, thank goodness, independant research but money is harder to come by so there is no doubt alot less to read about any negative effects of prescription mind drugs.

Nobody has to lie, just manipulate.

If you want some proof of biological disease, there should be a biological test. Lets take diabetes, which is a very popular comparison to mental disorders. If you have symptoms indicating diabetes, your doctor takes blood to determine if your sugar is within certain known and long proven healthy levels. If it turns out you have it, you are required to home monitor your sugar to regulate how much medication you need. So, where's the biological dopamine test and what are your levels? How do they change during the day? Are you getting just the right amount of medication according to those levels? Gee, if dopamine is what you need, what's up with Strattera anyway? The insulin issue is pretty solid, not much mystery/experimentation going on there.

You see, they don't play by the same rules as biological diseases yet they want to be in the same ballpark. All they have is the fact there have been studies on how drugs effect the brain; gosh, even LSD experiments from the 1960's showed a favorable outcome when they discovered a nice side effect of it was extreme happiness due to serotonin release. So, it was assumed sad people were lacking serotonin....wow, how scientific is that. No proof, just happy people with small doses of LSD to thank. Nevermind sadness could quite possibly be due to external factors or bad health/pain/sleep/energy. They quickly started to develop simular drugs....I'm sure in the beginning the motive were pure but these days it's clear money comes first.

That's why I think they really don't know what they are talking about.
Quote from UARebel:
The biggest thing that bothers me is the fact that so many people do not want to consider ADD/ADHD a REAL disorder. And the fact that there is no biological examination to prove it is falce. The root is 3 nuerotransmitters that are insufficient in amount located in the brain: dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine. Research, including PET scan, CAT scan, SPECT and MRI studies, have demonstrated that the brains of people with ADHD are measurably different than others. There differences are the bases for problems which place people with ADHD in a great disadvantage in many circumstances. If you do not believe that this is a provable disorder, i challenge you to go look up research and other information at the American Psychiatric Association and look at different results from different brains. And to add with that being a real disorder, it needs real medication. One shouldn't have to spend his entire life feeling a sense of emptiness, even though people around him are constantly saying, get motivated! Well, maybe he very well can't. If someone has diabetes, they should take insulin. Imagine how diabetics would feel if a group of people always went around saying insulin is not the answer you could die! So before so many people assume that add and its medications are a myth, do more research, and I assure you that you will find that it is very much so real.


But, you didn't ask me if I thought ADD was real. It's definately real in my opinion..... only I do not believe those differences in brain activity/learning processes is a real disease. Difference does not=disease. Biologically, we have many differences that sometimes run in groups.....shall we claim people who are left-handed are diseased individuals? Most ADDer's are visual spartial learners from what I've read; this collides with traditional teaching methods. It's probably alot like left brain/right brain users....different, not diseased. It just happens that ADD is not accomodated in our society. Hopefully that will change.

I also cannot tell you how many times I've read about the high IQ's these kids have.....certainly this is not disease in need of medication! And one of my issues is that stimulants are not medication....they are drugs that can speed up the brain....alot more powerful than caffeine which most people think is so horrible for health. Caffeine is incredibly weak in comparison yet we are warned by the medical community to watch for the smallest amounts of it in foods and drink...really now.

Well, I am interested in all this because my nephew was diagnoised with ADD. He first took Adderall. This helped him in school, but after awhile some personality changes occured. This normally sensitive, sweet boy was yelling/ordering at his dad in front of me one day; another day he didn't want to sit next to his mother(whom he adores). Also, after he started meds, he always had a stomachache(listed effect) But it was when he started crying for no reason(emotional lability) his dad went back to the doctor for advice.

Strattera was the magic answer. It worked well for awhile, his moods got better. But soon, the fatigue/sleep side effects kicked in, and would not go away. He was tired all the time. The doctor's answer was to try and up the dose and see. My brother-in-law decided no they won't see.....

Now he's off all meds. He is the sweet kid we knew before, and seems happier. School? Well, a new teacher seemed to connect with his needs and he is getting good grades, something that was supposedly impossible without meds. His younger brother started to have reading problems; instead of going to a doctor, the parents hired a tutor, which is working out beautifully.

My ADD nephew is fine; he plays sports, is learning violin. Yes, it's possible without meds. And yes, his ADD was quite real. I don't disagree about it's existance at all....just it's definations according to the psychiatric community and the use of unhealthy drugs.
UARebel is 22, and his blood pressure and pulse rate are in great condition. UARebel also exercises a lot as well. I don't know what your exercises consist of, but i spend 2-3 hours a day in the gym (except sundays) and usually run 2-3 miles every other day. The only thing I don't understand Jennita, is that from your previous posts, and I could be wrong, but I would think that you are not ADD/ADHD. I am. I find it very ironic that people that are not love to generalize how drugs affect people that are, when they have no experimental knowledge, only things that they have read! Someone said earlier that they believed in 'natural things' and 'natural healing'.....where do you think these stimulants derive from? Exactly. You take a much greater risk getting in a car (which I am sure you do) than anyone ever has of taking the medication....oh, and since there were claims of Ritalin death and so on, I decided to check again with the American Medical Association...there has never, I repeat, never been a death reported because of stimulant drugs to treat this disorder....someone also said that it isn't fair or right to use drugs like this to feel a drugged effect or something....it is not a drugged effect. When people are properly diagnosed and use the treatment, the feeling that they get is that that normal people have. Herbs, teas, roots, rocks, blah blah blah. Do you honestly think that is enough to treat something of this level? How many roots could honestly play a significant part in dopamine regulation in the brain? I am not sure about you, but there are times when I say ok, this person knows more than I do. This is generally the case with medical professionals in the field of psychopharmacuetical study. ADD/ADHD and its medications used has been researched and studied in more than 6,000 individuals...making it the most researched field in all of medicine. More than cancer, aids, and so on. Chemo therapy for cancer patients is known to be potentially effective...and there are side effects. Well I guess since in all of its being, since chemo is not 'natural' it is not safe? And I know what your thinking, ADHD is to no extent something that needs to be treated like cancer!----your opinion----ADHD is like having any other disease or disorder...just in a different way. I have a sister that is 34, and she has been taking stimulants for ADHD since she was 18. She is very, very healthy-and it has done more good for her than anything else. Please, I wish everyone would quit trying to put so many scare tactics in to people with it, that they never actually find any help. You have no idea, no feeling, no way of ever realizing how much it benefits people. If you did, then you would obviously want them to be encouraged-instead of frightened and mislead. Kava, Gingko, roots, herbs, this and that....can not, and I repeat can not really and truly help someone with ADHD. It can assist, but not do the amount of help that the medication can. This is my last reply on the subject, because it utterly disgusts me when people have no visual knowledge of a disorder yet claim that they know what and how it is and what and how is dangerous.....Rediculous. If I can't banned from the board, so be it, just as long as maybe I showed one person like Andy that sometimes you have to use what helps. And as far as the side affects, most of these side affects are listed with MOST OTHER DRUGS-inclduding things like aspirin...............Andy, good luck, God bless, I wish you the best of luck, and my best advice to you is not to jump on the medication train, but talk to a professional who has experience in the field...not someone who claims that they once knew a guy who had a sister that's roomates cousin heart blew up from adderall...because when it all boils down to it, there is no root to these stories.
Quote from UARebel:
. Please, I wish everyone would quit trying to put so many scare tactics in to people with it, that they never actually find any help. You have no idea, no feeling, no way of ever realizing how much it benefits people. If you did, then you would obviously want them to be encouraged-instead of frightened and mislead.



Andy, good luck, God bless, I wish you the best of luck, and my best advice to you is not to jump on the medication train, but talk to a professional who has experience in the field...not someone who claims that they once knew a guy who had a sister that's roomates cousin heart blew up from adderall...because when it all boils down to it, there is no root to these stories.




i know what your saying,.
some of these people have scared the ***** out of me. im almost afraid to even think of the name retalin.

but, i have a follow up appointment with my psyh (who is a pro, hes been at this psychology buisness for a LONG time. hes an old guy now. and we plan on talking about all the available meds then, so i can find out a little bit more.
thanks for all your help, everyone
Quote from UARebel:
UARebel is 22, and his blood pressure and pulse rate are in great condition. UARebel also exercises a lot as well. I don't know what your exercises consist of, but i spend 2-3 hours a day in the gym (except sundays) and usually run 2-3 miles every other day. The only thing I don't understand Jennita, is that from your previous posts, and I could be wrong, but I would think that you are not ADD/ADHD. I am. I find it very ironic that people that are not love to generalize how drugs affect people that are, when they have no experimental knowledge, only things that they have read! Someone said earlier that they believed in 'natural things' and 'natural healing'.....where do you think these stimulants derive from? Exactly. You take a much greater risk getting in a car (which I am sure you do) than anyone ever has of taking the medication....oh, and since there were claims of Ritalin death and so on, I decided to check again with the American Medical Association...there has never, I repeat, never been a death reported because of stimulant drugs to treat this disorder....someone also said that it isn't fair or right to use drugs like this to feel a drugged effect or something....it is not a drugged effect. When people are properly diagnosed and use the treatment, the feeling that they get is that that normal people have. Herbs, teas, roots, rocks, blah blah blah. Do you honestly think that is enough to treat something of this level? How many roots could honestly play a significant part in dopamine regulation in the brain? I am not sure about you, but there are times when I say ok, this person knows more than I do. This is generally the case with medical professionals in the field of psychopharmacuetical study. ADD/ADHD and its medications used has been researched and studied in more than 6,000 individuals...making it the most researched field in all of medicine. More than cancer, aids, and so on. Chemo therapy for cancer patients is known to be potentially effective...and there are side effects. Well I guess since in all of its being, since chemo is not 'natural' it is not safe? And I know what your thinking, ADHD is to no extent something that needs to be treated like cancer!----your opinion----ADHD is like having any other disease or disorder...just in a different way. I have a sister that is 34, and she has been taking stimulants for ADHD since she was 18. She is very, very healthy-and it has done more good for her than anything else. Please, I wish everyone would quit trying to put so many scare tactics in to people with it, that they never actually find any help. You have no idea, no feeling, no way of ever realizing how much it benefits people. If you did, then you would obviously want them to be encouraged-instead of frightened and mislead. Kava, Gingko, roots, herbs, this and that....can not, and I repeat can not really and truly help someone with ADHD. It can assist, but not do the amount of help that the medication can. This is my last reply on the subject, because it utterly disgusts me when people have no visual knowledge of a disorder yet claim that they know what and how it is and what and how is dangerous.....Rediculous. If I can't banned from the board, so be it, just as long as maybe I showed one person like Andy that sometimes you have to use what helps. And as far as the side affects, most of these side affects are listed with MOST OTHER DRUGS-inclduding things like aspirin...............Andy, good luck, God bless, I wish you the best of luck, and my best advice to you is not to jump on the medication train, but talk to a professional who has experience in the field...not someone who claims that they once knew a guy who had a sister that's roomates cousin heart blew up from adderall...because when it all boils down to it, there is no root to these stories.


You missed my point. Your'e 22 and in great shape, I'm not surprized. Come back and talk to me when your'e 47....

Look, I don't mean to upset you. You really need to know a few things, though. If your doctor cannot tell you any real measure of dopamine levels in your brain and what normal levels are, you really can't medicate something like that properly. It's sloppy and dangerous to regulate levels of something in the body when one doesn't have any course of measure. Diabetics monitor their blood sugar several times a day, knowing when it is too high and also knowing WHAT is too high.

The dopamine connection lies only in theory; theory that they know dopamine stimulating drugs speed up the brain...which brings on clarity, attention and focus...so thus the conclusion that unfocused brains must be short on dopamine. They aren't even sure about that, or they wouldn't have develped Strattera for ADD ,which doesn't stimulate dopamine.

Also, stimulants are tolerance-producing drugs. The day will come you must take more to get any effect. That's why long-term use may become dangerous to health as side/adverse effects are more prominent in higher doses. THat doesn't mean super-high doses; doses well within the allowed prescribing criteria could cause the adverse health effects and sometimes mental effects such as depression or bi-polar.

With all this talk about neurotransmitters like dopamine and what not, do you know how your body makes/gets these things? Simple. Protein synthesis. Protein, aided by vitamins and carbs, breaks down into amino acids. Amino acids are what convert to neurotransmitters. Look up any list of amino acids and it will tell you what neurotransmitter an amino makes!

So this is why we preach about natural stuff.....not so much roots and herbs, but healthy foods, balanced diet, vitamins and minerals. I never once mentioned a root here, dear....

THe stuff Free Spirit mentioned is also such. L-Tyrosine, in case you don't know, is simply an amino acid. No magical roots, herbs or potions here....we are not witches, ok?? ;)

Sure, we are not professionals. We are just people concerned about this issue and the danger to others.

Truly, I wish you and Andy the best. I would hope both of you would look more into alternative methods for your own sakes.....I think you fail to realize that all these posts are out of concern for the health of people on these drugs and we truly think people who have ADD are not served well by the quick-fix toxic solution offered by psychiatry.

I think you deserve better, but ultimately it is your decision which way your life will go....no hard feelings, ok? Good luck to you both.... :wave:
Quote from brainf0g:
Nothing is addictive unless you have the addiction gene. If you have the addiction gene you shouldn't be taking stimulants to begin with. If you are, and you live in California, it is illegal.


I find the whole addictive gene thing questionable as some believe addiction can be learned behavior.....of course I am not talking about physical dependancy. THe learned behavior thing can also apply to things other than drugs, for example, abused children have been known to become abusive parents. There are no "abusive genes", but that behavior is an undesirable, compulsive and destructive behavior, much like drug or alcohol abuse. It is learned. Addiction itself is defined by drug-seeking, compulsive behavior.

Take me for example. Not one alcoholic or drug addict in the family. I don't drink, smoke, do any drugs. A few years back, I took my doctor's advice to take benzos for symptoms I later discovered was a reaction to codiene, a drug prescribed for me when I had an illness and which I did not abuse nor was even familiar with.

So, I developed tolerance to the benzo and suffered tolerance withdrawals with physical dependancy. Did I become addicted? No, only physically dependant....when I found out what benzos were, I quickly tapered off them despite the doctor's insistance I was not addicted....well, he was right, I had no compulsions for euphoria, but the dependancy caused me horrible withdrawal-like symptoms......couldn't sleep a wink without them, and even on them I slept very little. Pre-drugs, I slept full nights with no interuption.

I went through withdrawals and it took a long recovery to get off that 2 mgs. Ativan. Had I known beforehand what they really were..."downers" as they are called on the street, I would have never taken one...but I was told they were "medicine", (as Ritalin and other ADD drugs are called) and that's what I thought it was.

I was deceived, and I believe most people are being deceived by the medical establishment on drugs such as Ritalin or Adderall as well.

I don't personally attack anyone on these drugs, by the way. I hope some will simply consider that there is alot of potential , serious damage that can result from these drugs to mind and health.
Dependency and addiction are two completely different issues. Both go through a withdrawl, but the person with the addiction gene cannot stop thinking about the "drug of choice". Even after they're completely detoxed.

Having withdrawls doesn't mean addiction. Addiction is defined by consequences.

People abused as children have a higher chance of becoming abusers themselves, not because it's learned per se, but because they are affected by this abusive environment during "critical periods" of early development. The way they are affected during these critical periods becomes part of their actual biology.

Therapy can 'fix' this somewhat, but once it's "hard-wired", you're looking at no less than a decade of work to "rewire" these connections as an adult. It isn't a matter of just unlearning behaviors, it's part of your brain's biology.

AD/HD is a biological disorder and can be diagnosed biologically, like I've told you before via SPECT scans.

People with AD/HD have an abundance of Dopamine Transporters compared to someone with a "normal" brain. These additional transporters ADDers have, reuptake dopamine within the synapse, leaving a less than sufficient level for cell communication.

In a basic sense, Ritalin doesn't stimulate the release of dopamine, like Adderall. This is the reason Methylphenidate isn't dangerous like amphetamines *can* be in high doses. Ritalin binds to dopamine transporter proteins, thus blocking the reuptake of the brain's normally released Dopamine in the synapse. This 'naturally' leaves more Dopamine readily available.

Amphetamines can be dangerous if they 'excite' the brain to release more Dopamine than their "threshold". If this happens, free radicals can form and brain damage sets in. This is why antioxidants are key with people taking questionable doses of amphetamines. The limbic system is particularly damaged in high doses of amphetamines. This is why depression is prominent with methamphetamine abusers.
Quote from brainf0g:
Dependency and addiction are two completely different issues. Both go through a withdrawl, but the person with the addiction gene cannot stop thinking about the "drug of choice". Even after they're completely detoxed.

Having withdrawls doesn't mean addiction. Addiction is defined by consequences.

People abused as children have a higher chance of becoming abusers themselves, not because it's learned per se, but because they are affected by this abusive environment during "critical periods" of early development. The way they are affected during these critical periods becomes part of their actual biology.

Therapy can 'fix' this somewhat, but once it's "hard-wired", you're looking at no less than a decade of work to "rewire" these connections as an adult. It isn't a matter of just unlearning behaviors, it's part of your brain's biology.

AD/HD is a biological disorder and can be diagnosed biologically, like I've told you before via SPECT scans.

People with AD/HD have an abundance of Dopamine Transporters compared to someone with a "normal" brain. These additional transporters ADDers have, reuptake dopamine within the synapse, leaving a less than sufficient level for cell communication.

In a basic sense, Ritalin doesn't stimulate the release of dopamine, like Adderall. This is the reason Methylphenidate isn't dangerous like amphetamines *can* be in high doses. Ritalin binds to dopamine transporter proteins, thus blocking the reuptake of the brain's normally released Dopamine in the synapse. This 'naturally' leaves more Dopamine readily available.

Amphetamines can be dangerous if they 'excite' the brain to release more Dopamine than their "threshold". If this happens, free radicals can form and brain damage sets in. This is why antioxidants are key with people taking questionable doses of amphetamines. The limbic system is particularly damaged in high doses of amphetamines. This is why depression is prominent with methamphetamine abusers.


Well, at least you know the difference between addiction and dependancy. Lord, the doctors that told me I couldn't be in withdrawals because I wasn't addicted!!! Now, they surely can't be that dumb, they were all board-certified at a top establishment in our area. I think they either were that brain dead, or were given misleading info from drug reps, or simply in denial. Perhaps they believed addiction and dependancy were not separate issues. Perhaps they believe in fairies and goblins too....

I get you on the whole re-uptake thing vs. releasing thing.....yes, no doubt the amphetamines are worse, but re-uptake bothers me too, from what I've learned about it. Reuptake interfers with what is normal metabolism of these chemicals...I'm also referring to AD's and serotonin too. This can cause adverse effects and wear out the receptors, so to speak, over time. The new research on AD's found a damaged serotoinin system from the reuptake serotoin drugs, the SSRis' in rat studies. I know we are different than rats, but those are the same rats that we found got cancer from cigarettes(well, not those exact rats, literally; their heirs perhaps :D )

So if reuptake from SSRi's can damage serotonin receptors after long term use, what about reuptake of other receptors, like dopamine? I think it's worth a thought, you know?

Those brain scans are a good idea, but I still think since all brains are not alike, as in we don't have the same fingerprints, it doesn't prove disease. Large groups of people obviously have this "defect" in common, but there is no proof it's a defect or disease, but rather a different response to learning stimulus. Also, brain chemicals are constantly changing due to growth, food, outside factors, sleep, necessary processing for body functions, etc.

Lots of ADD kids have high IQ's and when they are stimulated correctly, without drugs(tutors, different learning method,etc) they respond. I typed in Visual Spatial Learners and found a whole other view on ADD.

The drugs they give for ADD are questionable, in health and mind's well-being, causing OCD, mood-swings, aggression, sleep problems, stomach aches and fatigue. I know because my nephew was taken off Adderall, then Strattera, for such problems. Off the drugs, he no longer has such symptoms. And a new teacher, a new year brought him a better school year, without drugs....go figure.

So we still do not agree on most things, here, however it was refreshing to hear someone clearly have a hold on the whole addiction/dependancy thing and well put by you... :)
All well and true, but many are misdiagnoised. Even the presentation of all symptoms does not guarentee anything. My nephew was diagnoised properly, given meds. But his parents did not care for the side effects; mood swings(crying for no reason and aggressiveness) on Adderall and sleep/fatigue problems on Strattera. So they dropped all meds(he was only on for a few months) and the world didn't fall apart. His parents became noticably more patient with him instead and also a new teacher and school year seemed to basically make his ADHD disappear.

You would probably like to say he never had it to start with, but how is it that he went to proper doctors and had all the testing for "chemical imbalances"(both his parents are in the medical field so it was done right with right doctors) and was still diagnoised as having this disorder? According to what I've read, it simply doesn't just disappear, especially without medication. There is too much theory associated with this and also whether or not amphetamines/drugs is the answer.