Discussions that mention methadone

Hi Sammi

Thanks for taking time to reply.

I must admit to not understanding this "sub" situation at all!
(Mind you - not surprising - I have no experience of it!! Is that Irish or just Irish?? LOL)

Your doctor has said, for now - your first time, to take enough to counteract withdrawal from Norco - that I understand completely. He has to work out the dosage you will require to stabilise. But within a week - you will not be suffering from any withdrawals from Norco at all - Norco will all be out of your system.

Now - after this week - you will presumably just have sub in your system? I know it is a long lasting opiate - so perhaps that is why it only needs to be taken every 2 - 3 days? So - in fact - the patient has to decide when withdrawal of the sub is setting in and decide when to take the next dose of sub? Do you also chose the amount to administer too?

If this is so then this approach just seems to lack the usual sort of guidelines which go with most medicines. A bit "hit and miss"? Its very subjective - the patient deciding when he should take the drug (and how much) - rather than a more scientific objective approach. What parameters do you use to decide when withdrawal is setting in and you need to administer more sub? You might just have flu?
Its certainly expecting a lot of the patient - dont u think?

It appears to be a new drug - so I suspect there is really very little known about it and its actions and side-effects.

Just seems like a good idea that people on the sub should exchange experiences and build up some sort of profile on this drug? Mutually helpful. And - given that pharmaceutical companies release new drugs onto the market without very much being known about the product. I know I am cynical - but I suspect drug companies and doctors are happy enough to use people as guinea pigs!

Do you know if there are any people in here who have managed to taper off the sub?
If so, then it would be interesting to hear how the taper was constructed, at what rate the taper was undertaken (10% reduction seems to be how most tapers are approached), what were the withdrawal symptoms after each reduction, length of time between each reduction, how long did the taper last etc etc.

Perhaps if there is someone who has done this taper off sub is reading this - they will come forward and explain/share their experience.
It seems there are quite a few people now on sub - but it doesnt sound as if there are any finally getting off it? Perhaps there are but they havent contributed to this forum. Maybe, of course, sub
is mainly intended for long term maintenance - like methadone?

Anyway - it is wonderful to hear you sounding so well - and I hope you will be able to stick to your goal and be off within 4 - 6 weeks - that will give so much hope and inspiration to others following along behind you. Good luck, Sammi............you are doing brilliantly.......... one foot in front of the other........ and just for today................ and before you know it you will be free!!

I look forward to watching your progress.

Y

Y,
You know what, they simply do not yet know all that much about the sub. There is a website that has a directory of all the medical studies being conducted and several involve sub. If there was one nearby I would probably even participate. The clinic I talked to says they keep people on sub one week. I have yet to find anyone through this board who has successfully done a detox after being on sub one week. Closest thing is I think Kinda did a methadone detox in a week.

gotta run,
rosie

Actually, I believe I'm going to stay away from the people I came w/and just hang out in the hotel room. And as far as the mini-bar goes - so far the only thing missing are those candy bars and wonderful crackers (lol - just kidding). I've been doing well on the slim fast bar diet. Once a day I eat a 'sensible' meal but finally, today, for the first time, I looked in the mirrow after my shower and could tell a difference. FINALLY! It's been three weeks. I think the key was me switching from TONS of sugur in 5 cups of coffee a day to that splenda sweetner. It's better than sweet and low and equal but very expensive. Anyway, I brought some w/me on the trip.

Back to the Sub, there have been very few that have tapered off of sub without a pretty bad case of withdrawals. However, I have seen some others from a heroine board who tapered really slowly (I think decreased by one mg every 3 - 4 weeks). There was a guy on here (Spark-o-cet) and he was down to .5 mgs per day for almost two or three months and once he stopped, he was terribly sick for a couple of weeks. He started taking hydros for the wd from Sub (which totally negates using the Sub) but he finally did it. He got off of Sub AND hydros and last time he posted, I think it had been a month since he had any opiates. However, we haven't heard from him in a while.. I need to try and check on him. It's some tough stuff. Of course Michelle tried to come off but she didn't really taper so it was really, really bad.

I know the wds are going to be probably as bad as coming off of methadone but Yinsky - it's the only thing that has saved my life so I just don't see me coming off of it anytime soon.

As far as Sammi - my doc told me to take 16 mgs per day but I only needed 8 in the beginning and then went up to 12, then 16 and then am doing pretty well on 12mgs. I've noticed some pepople try to take it every other day and a low dosage so that the wds won't be so bad. I can somewhat sort of relate to that mindset if I was going to get off of it soon. It's just a tough situation. I personally think that if someone is going to get on it, it either needs to be for no more than 2 weeks, or for at least a year.

Just my opinion... How are things w/you? I just got room service and I'm STARVING - I cheated and ordered a marble cheese cake. It's my weakness and I just couldn't help it. Anyway, let me know how you are doing.

Quote from Root:

Hi Yinsky. I have made a point of finding out as much about sub as I can but the problem is I can't write as good as I could if I could just talk. Sub is very new and they don't know a whole lot about it. It efects people in difrent ways and it is one of the few drugs that the patient realy has to set the dose for. Sub has a half life of 37 hours. This is why it can be taken evry other day or even evry 2 or 3 days be some people. Other than Spark, I don't know any one who could taper off the sub. I have read hundreds of stories on a difrent board. What the majority ended up doing was going as low on the sub as they could and then switching back to hydro or morphine and then finishing the taper or detox like that. The only way I know it can be done faster is for a detox only and they use the sub for 2 to 4 weeks before a person gets depending on it. I know it works good for a lot of people but I had a terible time with it and had nervusnes and depresion and nausea all the time. It was terible and it didn't help my pain very much at all. I don't know if this helps you any but I wanted to add what I know. I think it's a life saver for some but I am scared about what is going to be found out about it after people are on it for a while.

Thank you Root for taking the time to post this. And thanks for the info on the half life of sub. I had read your posts earlier and knew you had been having a difficult time and so didnt know if I could ask you a question directly. You really did have a very difficult time coming off the sub - I know. Are you totally off now..........? How are you feeling? I knew you were looking into other methods of pain control - how is this going?
What you have said above are my thoughts too. Sub appears to be so new and still in the experimental phase. My gut feeling is that people should be very wary of starting on it - unless they are so sure that they have no other option? Just my own personal feelings. I do believe that the pharmas and doctors are happy enough to use human guinea pigs! Wrong - in my view - but that's life? However - it would appear to be a God send for those who continually relapse and who desperately need help for chronic relapse. I know Banker speaks so highly of it - it has allowed her to continue working and looking after her family without the continuous anxieties of relapse. And for people who are looking for maintenance it does seem like a great "cure". The problems seem to really be about withdrawal. I cannot imagine how anyone would wish to go from hydros to sub and then have to return to hydros to successfully quit? Crazy?? I wonder is it really much different in action to methadone........... what are the advantages of sub over methadone? I think I have heard that methadone is much more effective for pain control too?
Anyway - its good to see lots of people pitching in here with their views and experiences...........
Thanks, Root........ hope your own situation is improving and that you are feeling better?
Y

You know what Michelle - I bet you it's because it's Subutex and not Suboxone. There is a HUGE difference between the two. I almost guarantee that is the issue. He never, ever should have given you Subutex unless it was in the initial stage but then you should always switch to Suboxone. I bet you this is what it is... I'm going to my doc probably next week or the next and I'll ask him.

Yinsky - I've taken methadone (off of the streets and never for more than 2 weeks at a time so I wouldn't get 'addicted' to it) but there is a tremendous difference between the two as far as the high goes. There is no high with Suboxone but I LOVED methadone. It was almost better than lortabs for me and it only took one pill instead of 6 to make me feel that way. With Sub, you just feel normal again, like you never really had a pill problem. It's just so weird. I'm sure there will be 'horrible' statistics that will be revealed about it one of these days but I was facing death right in the face and had to do something. K- gotta run... I'll write more later.

Quote from yinksy:

Thank you Root for taking the time to post this. And thanks for the info on the half life of sub. I had read your posts earlier and knew you had been having a difficult time and so didnt know if I could ask you a question directly. You really did have a very difficult time coming off the sub - I know. Are you totally off now..........? How are you feeling? I knew you were looking into other methods of pain control - how is this going?
What you have said above are my thoughts too. Sub appears to be so new and still in the experimental phase. My gut feeling is that people should be very wary of starting on it - unless they are so sure that they have no other option? Just my own personal feelings. I do believe that the pharmas and doctors are happy enough to use human guinea pigs! Wrong - in my view - but that's life? However - it would appear to be a God send for those who continually relapse and who desperately need help for chronic relapse. I know Banker speaks so highly of it - it has allowed her to continue working and looking after her family without the continuous anxieties of relapse. And for people who are looking for maintenance it does seem like a great "cure". The problems seem to really be about withdrawal. I cannot imagine how anyone would wish to go from hydros to sub and then have to return to hydros to successfully quit? Crazy?? I wonder is it really much different in action to methadone........... what are the advantages of sub over methadone? I think I have heard that methadone is much more effective for pain control too?
Anyway - its good to see lots of people pitching in here with their views and experiences...........
Thanks, Root........ hope your own situation is improving and that you are feeling better?
Y

Hi Yinsky. Thank you for asking about me. I had to go back on the hydros for now because of the pain problems. You know I kept teling my self that I was just a adict and the pain was in my head but I have now come to the place I know that isn't so. I have to learn to stop thinking of my self as bad for having a adiction even if I didn't have any pain I still wouldn't be bad. So tomorow I have another MRI and then the pain doc on Monday. I dread going there because I am so tired of docs and nurses making me feel bad about the hydros when they were the ones who put me on them to begin with. Any way I hope the pain doc is cool and I hope I get some thing other than hydro for the pain. I wouldn't touch the sub again with a 10 foot pole.

Hey Banker, Root, and Michelle, I just posted on your other thread about the Sub confussion. I was going to ask if one of you could explain what Methadone is and why it is used versus the Sub. Michelle, is there another Dr that you can go to? I just don't think it's right that your current Dr can just "drop" you like that. It ticks me off! He's the one that got you started on the Sub and by gosh he should help you off.

Banker, it was interesting to read your comment about how the Sub just makes you feel normal. Everyone keeps asking me how I feel since starting the Sub, and it is hard to describe. It's even amazing to my husband how I'm not craving. I keep worrying about all the things that we don't know about the Sub being it is so new but like you said, it's either die of an O/D or live "normal" and happy for a while. I think it was StaceyVictory if I'm not mistaken that made a comment in a post to me and she said "it's not the quanity of life for her but the quality of life", she said she'd rather live 50 happy days than 200 miserable days. Makes sense, huh?
By the way, I just took my third 2mg Sub for the day. I'm really trying to keep it to a minimal thinking it may make it easier for me to taper. But who knows. I'm not going to push anything. Today was the first day I found myself dreaming of a hydro and just feeling a little down, but I'm sure that's because my husband is leaving town in the morning and although he's coming home on Friday night, I just HATE being here by myself!
Hope everyone is having a great evening and please keep posting:)

Thanks,
Sammi